What Makes Worship Music Faithful? Lyrics, Sources, and Discernment

0:00 What you're talking about when you sit sit next to a person at church, Should every Christian sing? Oh, yeah, is is should, because you might have been in church before and you've heard someone and you might say, oh, maybe a little off Kitty, maybe kind of loud. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And Ephesians commands that we should sing or sing to one another. Right. Should everyone sing to one another? Even if they Can't Sing. That's a hard one to call. That's a hard call. But the Bible says you should. Right. Should everyone sing a solo then? Should everyone get up and do special music? No, OK, and maybe no one should. Maybe it should be total everyone singing. It's great. Yeah. I, I grew up in a tradition where it was like routine every like the offertory.

0:44 It was like a special music kind of thing that was like a staple and it was rotate through, you know, a lot of people kind of thing. Yeah, Who's got the special this morning? Yeah. He's got the special. Well, if you sing admonishment, you're not singing a solo as much as you're singing admonishment, you know, because Colossians 316 let the word of Christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom, singing to one another with hymns, song the spiritual songs giving thanks to God. So admonishment songs admonish us and we should sing to one another's songs. And I, I don't think I've ever really done that. I mean I've done it in a group, big group, but not like. You never looked at Someone Like You should be kinder to your wife. Actually, I have done it to my kids. It's true.

1:28 I have sing be kind one to another. It was a little 80s feel. Yeah, I. Love it, man. My father-in-law had a song he sang that was and he's not a great singer, but it has stuck with his kids and then we pass on to our kids. So they can probably tell you, but it sometimes you got to do things you don't want to do. That's all right. Yeah, nice. Love it. Yeah. I mean, Steve Green had those albums. Yeah, yeah. Do. Everything without. Complaining. Oh yes. My kids heard me singing that. We did a lot of parenting from that. Yeah, yeah.

2:11 You know what? It's come out and sing. And Isaac, one time his cousins were over. They were, I don't know, 6-7 years old or something. 67670 No. It happened to me. Why? Why, why, why, why? But anyway, so she was complaining and she and he looked at her and he said, you know what the song says? Yeah, instead of. Singing it to her man, that is. Colossians 316. Should everyone though sing in that can't? If they can't even sing, should they obey 316? Is is there a certain volume threshold? Like, do we just sing as loud as we can, you know? Whatever love constrains there. You go Amen. Well, this podcast, we're going to be talking about the philosophy of worship and worship sing and we we I we didn't say it last time, but we're at a elder's retreat. That's right.

2:59 And so our last recording with Tim, you may have heard some background. I think there was a football game on. That's right. We're kind of on the path to Joel and Diana's room. I had to sneak bias at the end of last one, but so we wouldn't take this time to do some podcasts with Tim and and to get us thoughts. We so we just finished one up with counseling. Wanted to you've had a long experience with being a worship leader and playing piano and maybe even conducting a band in the in the past. So we thought it would be good to kind of have a podcast where we talk about Christian worship songs, maybe the philosophy of that, and maybe some some tough questions we get asked.

3:44 Yeah, that's really good. But there's something I have to say or something. Can you sing it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sing. We're going to take it to the next level, but you got to sing it. You. Got to sing. It all right, guys, I hope no one sees this is going to think that I'm a you know, you know we're going to take it to the next level. How's that? Is that good? Cut that sound. Perfect, perfect. Let's fire up that twanga music. From the hearts of the Low Country in South Carolina. It's the Take Two podcast where we take theology to the next level.

4:26 Worship. I feel like I'm sitting in between. 2 worshippers. I'm a worshipper too, but two worship leaders. Yes, and my and it's true and it's so good to have more than one worship leader because we all worship bring a different strength to that. But as far as Michael, you asked me, I said. When I was 1615, I started leading worship in my Free Will Baptist Church. Like you were the OR you just rotated in some. I was it a very small. Very. Small church and I like tell told me I banged on the piano, which I did anyway. So as I developed more theologically from that church into understanding certain doctrines of grace and so forth.

5:14 I continue to lead and ended up for 10 years being a worship pastor with choir, little little brass band and this and that. But I, I quickly in five years, I realized we, we need to have worship Bible studies. So Colossians 316 says we need to dwell richly in the word of God with all wisdom so that we can then sing. So so we started to do that and some of those worship Bible says were some of the most sweet times I can I can think back to. So yeah. So it's been a long time. I'm 57 now. Wow. Yeah, I don't think I've ever said that. So from 1557 you got the, you got, you know, pricing at all. What's the worst?

6:03 This what? Was the craziest thing that's happened during a worship. Service. Oh, my goodness. All right. So I was about 30 to 31. He knows immediately which. I do. It doesn't even, you know, it doesn't even. Yeah, this is the one. So we're rehearsing, we're warming up, right? And there's a cord that the guitarist is plugged into his direct box and it's not working. And you know, sometimes when you're getting pumped up to lead worship and thinking through the the importance of it and everything, you just kind of lose kind of, or I did I lose sense of like practical thinking, right. So I said, well, what you got to do, you got to pull that out and just lick it.

6:45 Oh no. I put that thing in my mouth. It just kind of, I don't know. Michael was impulsive ADHD. Here we are. And I saw lights that I'd never seen before. Wow, he's amazing. 110 voltage. Probably something like that. I. Don't know what it was right to your top. No, I don't know. I just know what had happened. It brought you closer to God. It did in more ways than. One so that's the worst I've seen it all that's. Quite the story. More than I want to see, have you? I've only heard what is this? What's the word urban legends of this happening really. Have you ever not that particular what I'm about to ask you about, but have you ever experienced a church that sang little drummer boy as if it was a theologically, you know, a song or or was that was mistaken it for like biblically accurate?

7:37 Yeah, talk about singing unbiblical songs, right? Yeah, So, yeah. But yeah, it was a children's choir director and I, it wasn't the church I was at, but one of the children were in a choir and I think it was my wife or something. I heard the children's choir. So what did the Little Drummer boy do at Christmas? Kids and the and the others know the Bible are looking at each other. Like what are they teaching? What's going on? Yeah. So that's crazy. I've seen it. So I think I don't, I think it was you, but it may have been Greg Kokal. I don't know. But someone told me that there was a distinctive that Christians have over other religions and that no other religions sing their doctrine. And we have talked about how music does tap into emotions. You know, rock can can tap into like a energetic, maybe even, you know, you know, an angry rebellion. Sometimes that's the the claim emotion and then you can have soothing emotions.

8:42 But maybe talk to us about how you see music helping to connect emotions and intellect. And I will say that there may be other religions that sing about their God, but the way that Christians sing about the humility of their God, I mean, they can sing about the power of their God. Can they really sing about the love and humility of their God like Christians can? So it is a very different song that we sing to our God. Now your other question was what was about? Emotions and it like because someone could make the here's the the someone could make the claim music you're just trying to manipulate people emotional. Just as I am 10 verses, I see that hands come down.

9:25 We're going to play it some more. Get you, you know. I think. I never could in that example. That's probably pushing it the other direction. But I, I think maybe you can talk to us about the healthy side of that. Maybe, yeah. When it says sing with all your heart, Yeah, what are we talking about? Do we want to pretty that up so we don't have to say what it really rejoice in the Lord always, you know rejoice exalting in the Lord, exulting with a you you know where to set our affections on things above. How do we do that? You know, we can set our mind, but.

10:05 But singing helps us to comprehend truth as it has effect on us. We. The more we see something beautiful, the more you know. Michael, you have a lot of science. You know a lot of things. You know when you see a lightning bolt? Yeah. What do you see? I. Mean, honestly, I think about wow, this is what it was, sorry, hotter than the surface of the sun. God used that just now to fix nitrogen so that our plants could grow and we can have food. That's how God does it, and he balances out US electromagnetically through that. Then I talk to my kids about that and they go, oh, that's cool.

10:51 So when the Bible tells us to observe the power of God and lightning and Thunder, you observe it more fully because and so it it means something more to you. And then when you sing about it, you're you're amazed more by it. Like you don't know much about Michael Jordan. I could tell from our pre show that you really were messing around. I feel like his like toughest defender ever played was John Stark. I feel like there just was not. I feel like it's a different. Era OK, we're going to move off that real quick, but I will say that you have no idea when when I if I saw Michael Jordan, I would be like I'm singing now it may not come out as a song, but it's the same feel of a song I'm worshipping in a sense what?

11:33 People did for. The world. Today, Drake may the the glory of of the greatness. That they have, yeah. So if you don't, if you don't know to the degree you know and comprehend something is to the degree which will which you will sing to it, whether you want to call it sing or not, there's something in your heart happening. Joy, enthusiast, anticipation, approval, crying out glory. You know, whatever it is, you use your own word. Wow, that's amazing. You applaud. God commands that stuff. I grew up in a church. Someone who's a special, you don't clap for him. You only say Amen, right?

12:15 Have you ever seen, you know, this culture? Do you know? This culture, we give glory to God, not to the person. I'm not, I'm just, you know, I'm just saying it's. Funny, what would the other side worship the Lord in reverence? The the pan back at 2:20 or I think it's somewhere in there. The Lord is in his holy temple. Let the earth shut up or be quiet. So and the other side of that there is, but you're right, I'm not. But maybe that's all they do right right now. You can't. So silence can be a form of reverence, but we should be fully orbed. Right, dancing without your outer clothing on seems like it's in the realm it's in the it's it's in the spectrum of something we might should do.

12:59 Is that purely descriptive? I don't know that God is saying. Yeah. Totally, You have to do that, but that seems like it is What's the word I'm looking for? It's it's in the realm of possibilities of how God wants us to worship. Yeah, I think the closest I've got to dancing and worship is probably just like this, You know, I, I, I I don't know what I would do if I. Didn't sing to the king? That's one I want to dance, honestly. Sing to the king. You know that song? It's just got that. And it's should. And it's about this exuberant excitement for God's reign in our lives and on the earth.

13:41 It's like man, that should motivate us. Yeah, I think about when Jesus shows up, you know, at the on the at the well, and that the Father is seeking worshippers who will worship him in spirit. Yeah. And in truth, truth, and certainly under the Spirit banner is what you're talking. Right, right. But we could be in spirit, but not in truth, and that's a problem. That's heresy. Idolatry. Yeah, there is a song that came out. Well, there's this CD that came out maybe late 90s and there was a, there was a song on it that I liked. I can't remember it right now, but I remember the song A Man After Your Own Heart was the song I liked. And I, I sang, I sang that as a special, you know that song. Well, I don't know it, but did you sing it as as admonishment? But there was also a song on this same CD that had words that basically said hold, hold.

14:48 I think it was point of grace. Hold on to me. Never let me go. I'll never let go of you. And I'd listen to that. I'm like, that is completely backwards from the truth of Bible because God says he's going to hold on to us. Yeah. And I I think I thought about all the people who listen that. What do they take away from that? Yeah, the emphasis, even if it may be a little bit OK, the emphasis seems off because it's keeping our eyes upon Jesus is going to be the emphasis of how we walk on water. Yeah, and how we don't sink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just. So maybe there's other songs like that. So I remember being young and new at CBC and I grew up from a tradition where we sang a lot of hymns. Yes, I did too.

15:37 And we sang in four part harmony. So. We had basses, we had tenors, we had Altos, we had Sopranos, and you could hear at our church all four parts singing along. So I was really focused on, you know, I was really, when I first started on CBCS, like, why are we not singing on him? Why don't I have music to read? That was my experience. And so a lot of the songs that I liked were songs that I had that had great harmony parts or that the music was really good. And then I think I suggested a song one time and well, we don't know about the theology of that. So talk to me about maybe songs that you would maybe want to sing and maybe songs you wouldn't, even if they're out of the hymn book. Yeah.

16:19 From from a theological standpoint cause not all hymns are created equally. No, they're not. Some hymns, some songs tell us, give us an opportunity to respond to God's glory, and some songs define God's glory. And some songs do both right, like How Great Thou Art would do both. Yeah. When I think that God, his Son not sparing sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in, but on the cross, my burden gladly bearing, He bled and died to take away my sin, then sings my soul. So that's a good example of both sides of that. You've got the description of God coming, you're singing about, and you have the response of God, and you got to have both as a worshiper, you know, truth and spirit, right. And so, yeah, I'm trying to think of songs that I have heard.

17:10 Well, you know, the one that is obviously wrong. I mean, this is going to be so obvious. It may not be as effective as I got something else. But here's one. In my church growing up, we sang a song. God's going to get you for that. You know, Tammy, what's your name? Wynette and what's his name? I can't Frank something hang something. God's going to get you for that and I was young. That's not I mean it it's true. Maybe depends on where you're at in relation to Christ, you know, and is that going to get you as sending you to hell or discipline if you're in sin. But, you know, there's songs that make much about us and those are songs that bother me when I'm as a worship leader, you know, because even saying I'm going to hold on to you. Jesus, though, it's, you know, but it's still making much of what you're going to do.

18:12 Right. And should should we sing songs in which we commit to the Lord? Absolutely. Take my life and let it be holy consecrated Lord to thee. You know, that's that's a good song, but what are you doing that in light of your simple will or in light of God's mercy, offer your body. So even there we have this perspective that what glory of God do we offer our bodies in light of or do we just sing a song about what I'm going to do for you in light of his mercy, you know, offer your body.

18:53 And when Paul's talking about the mercy of God and the grace of God, he's going to say I am what I am by the grace of God. He he's he's overwhelmed by the thought that he's been the least of the apostles been given this grace to preach and untimely born in these sorts of things. But he goes on to say in that first that passage about but I labor more than all the other apostles, which sounds very arrogant. Self help. I'm asserting myself. Look what I know, he says, But not I. But the grace of God. So yeah, when a song makes much about me, I don't like it. Yeah, like then, you know, some songs like that that have come out.

19:34 Well, yeah, yeah, there was a, there was a Mike's Chair song that came out. I, I, I kind of checked out of listening to popular stuff because I'm all podcasts and audio books these days. So I don't listen to the, you know, the way FMS or the his radios. So I don't hear the popular stuff. But there when I was, there was some Mike's chair song that came out and I don't even remember it. I was just like, this is just backwards. But I think I think you can have songs get it backwards, whether they're contemporary or hymn. Crazy beautiful, Yeah. There's a song. Maybe what? How long ago? Maybe I'm maybe dating that one, but it's a long time ago. But there's a something called your beautiful, Crazy beautiful. And I know what the purpose of that is, is to help people feel better about themselves.

20:23 But is that the purpose of worship? I feel better about myself when I'm worshipping a God who's in charge of my failures. And I say feel better about myself, meaning I don't focus on myself. I say, God, thank you for accepting me like I am. Change me, you know. My I grew up with my dad telling me because while I was not the head lead worship her by 15, at 5, my uncle had me leading a couple songs. So as young as five, I would be up in the front leading songs and that kind of carried through to through my teen years. We went to a different church. My uncle is out of picture, but I would occasionally stand in and lead and I would always try to do in the garden because it was my dad's favorite song.

21:10 And it's not a, it's not a, it's not a horrible, horrible song, but it's very just this experiential and, and you can have those kind of times out in nature. So it's like, but as a worship service, you got so much space. Is that the song you want? Like there's probably songs that are better to fit in that space. Yeah, they're seeking comfort from that thought. He walks with me and talks with me and tells me I'm his own. And the joy we share as we tarry there as none other can ever be told. It is very experiential. So it it's not, it's, it's not talking about yourself as amazing, but it's talking about this experience as the amazing thing about your relationship with God. It's it's very lopsided song, if you will. There's no glory of God being described. Right.

22:00 It's just the glory of the experience of sensing God in nature, which I guess we're told to do that to a degree, but I think, you know, yeah, it doesn't highlight it like you would want, you know? Yeah, I, I I want. Like Pharis, Lord Jesus does that, but it does it a lot better. Pharaoh are the moons and the metal fair still the son of but Jesus you're the fairest of all, and you and then we and it goes through all these different comparisons. Now, some of the worst songs like that could be set up with some strong theology, and it can be much better spiritual. Now you know it can admonish us better, it can reach our hearts. You know the ever present God meditating on that, you know immortal, invisible God only wise and light and accessible, hid from our eyes.

22:53 These this is or be still my soul. The Lord is on thy side. Bear patiently the cross agree. Now these are hymns, right? What a friend we have in Jesus or what griefs and we often forth or or what comfort we often forfeit what sadness I'm messing it up. We often bear all because we don't carry that to the Lord. Those are Speaking of God's glories in an experiential way. I come to the garden. It seems to have less of that. The subject is not Who is God there, you know. I think I know the solution is why don't we just exclusively sing psalms, get some iambic pentameter and just get the salts are out and then we know we're not going to air.

23:35 Yes, and and God calls upon us to sing Psalm 34 all my days, you know, I will sing to the Lord all my life, every day I will praise Him. So we are to sing to him. And the Psalms is a good example of that. And I mean, God did we. Sing in preparatory psalms. Should we put some of those to? Music, honestly, I think maybe maybe get some worship songs that are. I like the realism side of things too, where everything's not just like happy and rainbows all day because I trust in God. Yeah. Yeah. That's. True. I I think Zach, you've edged us on to a topic of what if there's a good song, but maybe not from a good source, Like what do we do with that? And I think we would, you know, there's some big threes out there, but even it's, it is well with my soul by Horatio Sperato or whatever his name was, he did not end well. He ended up having some, some bad theology in the end. So but how do we judge?

24:40 And the love of God, I think he committed suicide. Oh yeah, I didn't know that. I mean, he was an insane asylum. I don't. Know well and the while while we're at it, what is it that prone to Wanderlord? I feel it prone to plead the God up, but that guy did not end well either. He he apostasized at the end. Wesley. No, no, not Wesley. Somebody felt. Come, thou fount of every blessing. Yeah. But but even even Wesley, there might be some theology that you don't wind up super well with. But you could sing a hymn in good faith, maybe, right? Like and and Wesley might have even meant some of his lines differently than than you might mean than when you say I mean if you want to like, really like, get out to. It you know, how bad does a guy have to end up before you don't sing a song?

25:25 Right. Or you know, maybe shout to the Lord, maybe King of Kings cornerstone, mighty to save. Well, I know Michael's favorite song is Oceans. The ocean side of everything doesn't always talk. I'm I'm ending. Those are all. Hillsongs. Worship songs that we do, we do some of those. So will I, the 100 billion times we've done that one. Some Bethel songs, The goodness of God. I won't even list that other one there. It requires a wisdom to determine some of these things. You can't just say part carte blanche. No, never even the so will I saw I was talking to a sincere worship leader and they said we will not sing that song in church.

26:09 And I said why is that as I wanted to know I respect the guy and he said so will I that's a focus on me. So he was kind of taking the same things we were and he was so he's struggling with the same things so it. That's that's a recent song. Someone said recently that they we shouldn't sing so. Yeah, he was saying that. So I, I think that we have to realize this is a wisdom call because, but we have to start fundamentally saying we don't want to focus on ourself. We want to describe the glories of God and we want to respond to the glories of God because we're just and we want it to be admonishment in the sense that it's going to help you on Monday morning somehow to not dive into anxiety or depression or sin. Would that person have a problem with Rise up, O men of God? Rise up a man of God, you're thinking about that. Yeah, right.

27:00 I'm just saying there's a. Response there give heart and soul, mind strength, serve the King of Kings. Yeah, there's a response there. I think the so will I is just saying all these things sorry of creation. I'm going to submit to the same thing. I'm going to submit to you. Just like I feel it too, I'm submitting to the truth of reality. And I'm going to they they cry out and worship in their ways. Yeah, I want to do that. And then this at the end, the last verse is like you gave your life for others. Yes, I'm going to do that. Too. I know that's powerful. I think it goes back to the heart in spirit, truth, we've got to be accurate. But what's going on in the heart is more important than what's going on in the mouth, you know? But it's not unimportant what's going on in the mouth. Can the words coming out of your mouth connect to what's going on in your heart and it be pleasing to God? But if your words are pleasing to God, but your heart is far from him, you don't really see the lightning bolt like you see the lightning bolt.

28:04 You don't try to see the lightning bolt. It's God wants to be adored. He wants to be valued because the you can. Here's a quote that I think's a pretty good one for a worshipper to take with him. When I'm, my value is based on what I value. Your values are based on what you. I'll say more than that, I believe that my value. Is. Based on what I value most. In other words, I'm as valuable as what I value to people. When I'm valuing God in worship, and I live that out on Monday morning, I am glorifying the most valuable.

28:48 So that's why we worship so important. It exercises that, right? So should we sing a song written by someone that has terrible church theology? You know what I mean? But the song itself is great, but the. Song describes God. That's a hard one. Yeah. We do some of that at churches. You know, we don't overdo the lot of that, though. It shows up and I don't even think what's who is this? I don't either. And I hear later. Kings and I thought, oh, this is great. It just tells the story. Yeah, it's great. There's time. There are times that we doctor a song. We change words, but. Yeah, like there's this song, Let us cope, ancient words or something, you know, help us cope and you change. You know, we don't want to just cope. We want to grow through this.

29:37 So help. Us grow there you go we fixed it so we might we might change some things The so will I talks about all these creatures evolving in what you meant to and we're like maybe we just say living is what you want to do yeah, we're just kind of we're kind of just being careful yeah, being careful to say stuff. I will say when I hear a song is written by one of those churches, I have a, an adversion to it. So it doesn't and not, maybe not all the worship leaders do it at a church. We've got 3 right now. But I'm just like, OK, I'll pass that one up. You know, although I love it, maybe I really like the song because in my heart I am privately giving glory to God when I sing that thing.

30:24 The effect on other people, though, that's one of the reasons people don't want to have that song out. There there's a song that we, we used to do that caused some, you know, and transparency, some consternation with some of our members in the past. Those, those folks left. But it's still I don't sing anymore reckless love and I I can understand why people have an issue with it. I don't personally because I I can make it make sense and not be. Some powerful words. There are some very powerful, powerful words and some very powerful imagery of his love for us. So I think that you can, out of deference to people, go, you know what, if that song really, really bothers you and it's a good reason, you got to be careful.

31:07 There's got to be some wisdom in that. You don't want one family, you know, just being the. Yeah, there's other songs we can sing, maybe not just descriptive and describing the glory of God's love for us. But but you know, as I, as you know, Michael, I, I thought, well, Ephesians one says lavish. So let's just, oh, the overwhelming lavish love of God and it kind of loses something, but it's still there. But I think it's important to recognize the the church you're at when they sing, If they sing a lot of these songs, it may be a problem because you know, a lot of people are going to be tuning into Hillsong. And what's the other one again, Bethel?

31:48 Bethel Elevation. But but if you mix it up, Getty songs, hymn songs, and it comes once every 8 songs, you're not pushing that church. You're not like, this is our church. You know we're going to and because you're going to go find those songs, right? And if they're in a good church, if your church is learning theology most by what they're singing, problem. Yeah, that's good. But it's but you should be reinforcing your theology. But what you're singing, you should be able to point to scripture in your song, say they could ruin and as far as money goes, you got because you know, every time you do a song, there's money that goes. Maybe you're trying to figure that out last night.

32:29 Well, somehow they're somehow. Figuring it out. CCLI knows, we think we we're not sure how CCLI knows anymore. Yeah, because we don't sure how they do it we. Don't report it, but maybe, maybe by singing so will I. We're promoting that church. Here I can just see the leaders of Bethel just sit by their computer and say CBC is just making me written. I'm just not sure. Plenty of multiple of the churches. Yeah, yeah. We do have a good mix. I think, you know, the people have come to our church that wanted hymns only, and maybe they still want hymns only, but I think they've learned to go, OK, we're going to get some hymns. We're going to get some Getty. We're going to get some Shane and Chain. We're going to get, you know, some. And why do we do hymns? Because they're important and they better than most contemporary songs.

33:16 Most or maybe maybe it's not most of them or because it's a lot of good song, but they really do communicate and describe the glory of God. The hymns do and describe my response to God. So when I go on worship walks like we talked of before, I usually am doing. Hymns I like the mix and I was talking to Michael about this too. I feel like for me, if the worship and all of y'all are like great, perfect every time. Like my experience and worship usually has to do more with my mindset coming in, whether it's good or bad and be as long as the worship leader's not distracting in a bad way, which is never the case of CBC. You know, it's like, it's more like I could be singing any song.

34:02 It kind of depends on where my head's at a little bit, you know what I mean? As long as like it's something's like someone's not like licking the cord and shocking themselves or something, you know, it's like, if it's not distracting, it's like it's great. It's, you know, anyway. No, it's true that you're what's going on in your heart and you know Zach, as we grow in our theology and our private times of in connecting with God through that theology, through sufferings that we go through, through trials, songs start to mean more. So your mind is actually thinking 3 or 4 scenes where God's been faithful, great as I faithless versus just, you know, as a 13 year old. Yeah, you. Know, yeah.

34:46 It's great what what other questions we got about songs we we cover. I think we covered a lot of stuff that I think gets asked what people think about these kinds of things. Yeah, I I think that I guess you should put a bow on the Hillsong Bethel stuff. And like I was saying, maybe this is a fault. That's that's not even on my radar. I the only people I have ever gone to like listen to an album to go. Maybe there's something new here or City of Light and Sovereign Grace Music those and I don't know what that says or doesn't say, but to me, I just don't process that way. So I it doesn't.

35:29 So I don't maybe feel the same thing that other people might see or feel the as the danger because I would never go to a Hillsong album elicit. These have all kind of hit me from other places and I've heard it, you know, other places go. Oh, that's a good song. Maybe we should think about doing that. Yeah, I don't think they'll go read their book on theology. I hope not. And I don't think if they're going to your church and they're teaching good theology and you never sing those bad songs, they're not going to go to those songs. They're going to. And, and if it's a small enough church, it's one of the problems with large churches, they people get lost in that. At our church, you know what?

36:10 Do we have 180 or something? Yeah, 182 between 182. 20 So there's a lot of interaction, theological interaction with people and awareness. If someone comes and listens to King of Kings and then goes and starts reading books from Bethel but still comes to our church, we're going to have some talk at some. Point that makes sense. So I think the things it's a legitimate to be concerned. I think it is about are people going to get taken away from the truth by the Bethel? Yeah. And we're going to warn them if they start buying into this or if there's a church that patterns after them.

36:50 That's the other thing we at at Charleston Bible, we don't try to be be a performing worship church. Right. I think that maybe, I know we're wrapping it up, but maybe we can spend 2 minutes and talk about that. Because I've been to churches where I what, especially if it's above ABAB flat, I'm going to be singing louder than most people next to me and I'm like, no one else is singing in here. But that's not the case. I I feel very comfortable singing as loud as I want to at CBC. We're a participant. Because we're a participant. Performing, yeah. Yeah, and I, I, my, my sister leads a lot of worship in churches where, where she's at. And she was asked to fill in for worship at a church. And the the cue from the, you know, pastor, there was like, Hey, we, we kind of have a role.

37:43 If you're leading worship, your your hand cannot like your hands have to be like it. It. There were certain posture things like hands have to be up. If both your hands are down, that's communicating wrong message. Like it was very like that was like a rule that should be a. Cue very staged. Correct. And that it's like you're kind of getting these these cues. And then with some of these churches, I think you just got to be the best guitar player ever, regardless of character. We're just trying to get the people on stage you can perform. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah. You're just you're bringing up all these other questions I've got. What about an instrumentalist that what what thoughts on should they have a profession of faith to be in church band?

38:27 Should they have maybe more than a profession of faith? Maybe they should have a stable walk. What? Talk to us about that. Yeah, what, what's the level of their visibility should match in their need for integrity? Not because we're legalistic, but because if someone's going to see them play, they're going to watch them live a little bit, you know what I mean? And it's it, you know, is it a perfect, you know, life? Where, where they at? How, how, what do they believe where they are in their faith? I think it is important and that I want to use worship participation to develop like people singing in different groups or like if we do Christmas time or whatever. So again, it's about wisdom.

39:14 Sometimes we want to make rules because we're afraid. And I understand that if we make a solid wall and fence, we're not even afraid, right? But. We've we've already decided we just do that. Yeah, that's why we have leaders that have, hopefully integrity, and they're weighing things not based on what's going to sound the coolest, but what's going to glorify God the best. Right. And you're thinking through that. By the way, do you sing? Not well. If your sister sings, you could sing. Oh. My sister. My sister's gifted. I'm not. You had a lead role in the. I did sing a solo as a kid in 4th grade. Are you? Really not that good.

39:54 Oh, now I'm terrible. But your sister can do it. Yeah, and I and I can like, I mean, I, I play instrument for him. I don't really I'm like tone deaf, but it does help me if I can like see notes. Sometimes it's hard to like follow unless it's super easy, but yeah. In other words, you can't correct, you Can't Sing. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. But you know, should everyone sing to the Lord, even you, even me sing right? And and could your song be better than mine? Sometimes to the Lord? Yeah, I think so. Think so? Do you think it often is? No, that's a good answer. I was just checking your humility. Hopefully we hopefully we've figured out a little bit better about what is true worship. Yeah, I hope so.

40:38 And yeah, maybe maybe we'll get some comments and if you have questions, we can have Tim back on and try to answer those. Yeah, this has been fun so. I don't know. Do you remember how to get us out of? Here you have to help me out again. Sing the phrase. Sing it again. That's our take. We should do like it's trio like that's you know, like you know. So you want to just get your match? Yeah, that's our take and it OK. So you you'll be you ready. That's our take. Thanks for listening to Take Two. Find us wherever you find podcasts and on YouTube for those who want to watch our video cast.