Narrative Juxtaposition: How the Bible Speaks Through Story Placement | Part 3

0:00 Narrative juxtaposition. How the Bible speaks through story placement. What a pretentious title. Seems like there should be a song like Jonah, Jonah, Jonah, Jonah. Oh yeah, but there's that is the tune of some other What is the money? Money, money, money, money. Yeah, yeah. That's why I didn't know What? Yeah, there is. Yeah, Jonah, there you go. But you, you nailed it. We're talking about Jonah. If you zoom out, this series is really, really analyzing why certain things are placed in certain places within scripture. Previously we've talked about these Mark in sandwiches where where Mark like breaks up a story and puts a different story in between.

0:42 Not random helps prove an overarching point. We talked about Matthew, this famously Jewish gospel when Gentiles are inserted in it carries a lot of weight. I like this one because Jonah, everyone knows Jonah. Even in the Sunday school three weeks, you've probably heard it's like you got Noah's ark, you got Jonah, you're hitting David and Goliath, you're hitting the beats very well known prophet. Most evangelicals probably can't say a whole lot about most prophets, but for some reason that's like a good story. It's because it stands out where it's placed compared to everything else. It's like very different. And the narrative is like, all together. It's. Like spread out over first and second kings or something like that. You know, it's, it's all there.

1:28 Yeah, it it's good. I, I for one, you know, listeners may or may not know that generally I will put together like a series. Zach will put together a series. And we don't always read each other's notes. So I'll just say I felt like I learned stuff in the last two, two episodes. So this has been good to me, 'cause it's just pointing out stuff that I, I think I said in, in the last one of this is like it's hidden in plain sight. It's right there. That's exactly right. And you've been in church your whole life. I know I've been in church my whole life and it's like you don't see these things that connecting the bigger picture. I've, I've come to gain a greater appreciation of someone who I don't like fiction. I don't read, but it's like you just like when you read scripture.

2:09 Maybe I should, maybe I'll pick up fiction and understand it more. But you, you see how these things are woven so masterfully together. You're like, wow, I it's so in there like you don't even notice it. But when you see it. So anyway, the, the, the claim when we're thinking about Jonah, we, we see this intentional placement among all the other prophets, these prophetic books. And really what we see, you know, big theme of Jonah is God's relentless mercy. But we see it in a very strange satirical way where we we really see the moral superiority of non believers, non Jews, people you would not expect. It kind of flips everything on its head. Yeah, yeah.

2:52 Where it's like Jewish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same kind of thing over God's own, not just his people, but God's own prophet. It's just, it's just a very, very strange. So let's start by talking about why is Jonah here 'cause when you read it, it sounds like a satire. And when I think of satire, I didn't pay attention a lot in the literature class, but there's always one story that like comes to my mind. You know what story this is? That's like a classic satire story. I'm blanking on what it is, but it's like the one where you eat the babies or whatever. Do you know what I'm saying? There's like a famine and we should have looked this up. Oh, you're talking about? Yeah. This is a This is in the Bible.

3:32 No, no, no, no, no, no. Just a literature class. Like the It's like a classic satire story. If Jonathan White was here, do you know what? Do you know what? This is do you know what I'm just realizing? We we never took it to the next level. I'm so bad at this. Well, let's do it now. Let's go ahead and take it to the next level. Let's fire up that twang of music. From the hearts of the Low Country in South Carolina. It's the Take Two podcast where we take theology to the next level. We are back. We're talking Jonah and you. Looked up the book. I looked it up. We're talking satire. And when I think satire, I don't know why this stuck with me, but in the literature class, I feel like we would always read or talk about A Modest Proposal, written by Jonathan Swift in 1729.

4:25 It's a famous satirical essay suggesting that the Irish poor, they sell their children as food to the rich to alleviate their poverty. It highlights through dark humor, the calluses of the upper class, you know, these kind of things. So it's all I think about when I think of satire. We didn't study that man. We started the Lottery, which was a a short story and but it wasn't satire. It was, you know, it was. I don't know it was. Dark. It was dark. Those things, the dark ones, like stand out to you. I mean like stand up to me like did. You read the lottery. I did not read the Lottery. Maybe you were in the lottery? I was reading MoD's proposal and we were on different tracks.

5:05 Also makes me think of Isn't it ironic, the song that's not really filled with a lot of irony anyway. It's great, but satire? So I guess if we're framing it, when you think of prophets, what, what typically comes to your mind? Like what? Like prophets in the Bible? Like what kind of things? You think of like these fiery personalities, although they're probably not all fiery, but you know, 'cause but in general, they're, they're going out and they're saying thus says the Lord, and they're, they're admonishing people. They're going to the task and they're saying, you, you gotta get in line. And you know, they're there. They suffer suffering, bring about suffering.

5:48 You know, you think about Elijah stopping the rain for three years and that kind of stuff. But you, you know, think Elijah, Elijah Nathan going into Dave and say you are the man. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's like this judgement you start reading through like the some of these longer prophetic books like Isaiah, Jeremiah. It's like these long oracles. It's like this poetic judgement. It's hard to follow. They have, you know, this type of genre, these, this covenant, a lawsuit. You, you've done this, so now you're going to get this. Jonah doesn't really have any of those things. Instead, it's a prophet, not who's going out there and Speaking of God's behalf. Really, it's someone who's running away from God, someone who's not saying repent, repent.

6:35 He actually is resenting repentance. He hopes these people don't repent. He's like, I don't want to bring that message to them because I know you're a merciful God. Instead of saying you're going to be judged, you need to turn from your sins so you can have God's mercy. Jonah's like, yeah, I'm upset that God's merciful Very. It's disorienting if you're expecting Hosea, Amos, Micah. And you get Jonah because it's right in the middle of the these books, these these books full of judgement and warning. And really, Jonah is the satirical prophetic book written against some of this prophetic pride. So let's let's talk about some of the genre, the literary stuff.

7:15 You mentioned it. It's like a nice, neat narrative which you know, most people can't tell you. They probably know the name Isaiah and they know maybe a few facts, but it's hard to Or Jeremiah, but it's hard to tell the story sometimes for some of these prophets. Think Jeremiah's easier than Isaiah? I read Isaiah and I'm like, if I'm honest, it's probably an elder. Shouldn't say this. Like, I don't know what's going on, 'cause, 'cause I don't know who to. It's. So is this messianic? Is this in times? Is this? And it's all like scatter. Kind of, I know. And. It's like it's hard for me to put together. It's it's it, it really is a lot. And so you're you like see this in a lot of the prophetic books and Jonah really uses narrative instead of this Oracle uses humor sometimes, you know, some dark humor instead of doom, irony instead of the these instructions.

8:12 And Jonah overall teaches this theology through embarrassment. Like all the people you think that would be the quote UN quote good people are bad and all the bad people are good. It it's this moral reversal that where the prophet morally the worst character and then these you come Pagan after Pagan after Pagan the morally best characters very, very the. People on the boat, they're gonna be obedient, yeah. Bananas and so you think to yourself, what kind of prophetic book makes the prophet the problem? You know, it's not like Isaiah is the and you know, it's like they're just trying to, you know, Ezekiel's just trying to bear the message of God and he's getting all this hate.

8:52 Not so with Jonah. So let's talk about Pagan faith versus this prophetic failure. And he mentioned it. The sailors. So the sailors, Jonah 1:00 we, we learn from them that they're Pagan, that they're polytheistic and that they're scared with this storm. So you kind of, you kind of know they're not worshiping Yahweh. They worship multiple gods. But you, you talked about it, you, you kind of see where they start and where they go just with their words and it's, it's kind of crazy. It's like. Accidental evangelism wherever he goes. That is, that is crazy. Yeah. He's like, not trying to evangelize, but everyone's like coming to Yahweh. Look at this fool, but his God's strong. We better obey his God. That exactly.

9:36 They they start out praying to their gods, then they kind of want to find out what's really going on. Like Jonah, you know what's going on. They show fear of Yahweh. They offer sacrifices, they make vows. Jonah's not making a lot of vows, not not offering a lot of sacrifice. He's sleeping. He he avoids like prayer. He he technically knows the theology but doesn't act on it. See, he's, I mean you, you hate to say this, but he's kind of a loser. He, he kind of is. You look at this and you're like these, these Pagan sailors that don't know any better are like, man, you're, you're doing the right thing. So the pagans act like the prophet. They're seeking God and the prophet acts like a Pagan. Have you seen Sight and Sound Productions? I may.

10:23 Have it in Pennsylvania and Missouri and Missouri I think. I've seen them like when I was kid like maybe once or something. Yeah, so the one in Missouri, they had the Jonah. Oh yeah. And it they were, they're they're reading into it. But I guess there's another. There's a Jonah's mentioned somewhere else. We don't know if it's the same. Jonah. But they're they're leaning on that. Yeah, yeah. That he had heard from God. And so they're making this whole back story about, you know, he knows as a man he's gonna be a prophet and he's waiting to be that Jeremiah and that. And then he's like, go, I want you go prophesied to your enemies. And then he's like, I can't do that. Wow.

11:04 So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little bit of narrative interpretation, but I don't know. Yeah, something to something to think about and you mentioned it. So we will talk about Nineveh and we think about Nineveh's reputation that precedes him, precedes them. Not great people, right? Yeah, I mean, just a lot of terrorism from that part of the country. Yeah, Oh my goodness. Violent. Cruel. Putting hooks through people's jaws, like bringing them along on lines. It's just. All these things and all these depictions they have, it's not not great. But when they when they hear this preaching, immediate repentance, universal participation, no signs demanded.

11:46 They weren't saying show me a sign. They just accepted it Hook, line and seeker sinker. No resistance offered. Not what you would expect from this violent people. Have you heard that Jonas skin at this point in time may have been like messed up from the wells? So some people say Jonas mere appearance could have been it's self a sign. I'm not trying to, but you you put like. Have you seen? That here's the guy. This is very weird, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it may have strengthened his his case. Yeah, I I was gonna look it up, but I won't. But you know, his sermon, it's not this elaborate expository 52 week sermon through Romans. It's. Just like repent or you're gonna be destroyed. Married to the point in such a overwhelming response from Nineveh and then let's look at you know what's what's Jonah's response.

12:35 How does how does he respond really with with anger. He says I know you were a gracious and merciful God. He he he knew what would happen and because Jonah knows God's character. He knows where it will lead and he hates its implications. It's not what you would think of a prophet that that this mission God sent him on, God worked, God changed these people and he overall left just angry and bitter. Yeah, and I thought it might have had. Did you have any notes on the the vine in the Caterpillar? Because it's almost like the vine in the Caterpillar, like they show they kind of juxtapose against. That's good.

13:18 Yeah, that's good. Too, Because yeah, he's, you know, he loves them more than he loves the vine, than the people right in it. Like it shows his base desires, you know? Man, and so there's a lot of critique here that we we can look at what, what does Jonah essentially expose? On one level, we see this nationalism versus mission where where Jonah wants Israel to be saved from all of its enemies. Not a bad impulse. God is showing that Israel will help save the world, the rest of the world. Yeah. And that and that it shows the difference with Jonah, what Jonah wants, what what God wants.

14:02 We see this tension between obedience and compassion. Jonah does obey, however reluctantly, but doesn't doesn't rejoice in this mercy has this huge lack of compassion while he's technically carrying out what what God does and we see God's mercy is poured out on these sailors on these end advice. Even we read like on the animals like it. It's it's like everywhere in this story. The way the way the story ends is very strange too. It's like. It's almost like God spoke some of this through Abraham. I'm gonna bless all the world through you and your people. And like like you said, it does end with kind of like the city in repentance. We don't I wonder whatever came of that. I don't know that we have a lot of history of what what they did from this revival.

14:49 But yeah, yeah, I, I, I don't know exactly, but but we see that God is relentlessly merciful. And so, yeah, you step back out this familiar story and you look at Jonah among these other prophets. Jonah. Jonah was really critiquing prophetic pride, religious entitlement, this nationalistic theology. And really, and I've heard this often, it's, it's Jonah. This book is really to the reader, a mirror, a warning, a rebuke. When you read it, it should hit you in the face. That is the sailors and then invites. And it's not Jonah. Because if you're reading this, you might be thinking that you're better than these people or you know, God's how, how do you view God's mercy?

15:29 Who are you in the story 'cause you're, you're you. You could be Jonah. You know, maybe you're obedient. You think you're doing what's right, but is it reluctant to compassion and God's really working through these, these pagans. Yeah, I guess the question is your worst political enemy. Oh, that's a good way. To But you want them to come to a saving faith in Christ? Yeah. Sometimes you just want the worst. Like you're just like, I hope you know that cause 'cause that, yeah, that that's a good, good way to to frame it. Of note, Jesus talks about Jonah, you know, talks about different prophets and we see this picture of the sign of Jonah this this greater Jonah where Jesus does, you know, three days in the belly comes out resurrection. We see that, but he's running towards center. He's embracing suffering, rejoices in repentance. And so you made the good, good application. Do we we all love mercy when it's for us. Do we love mercy when it's extended to others? And that, that can be a tough one if you're just like, man, I hope I don't want to see anything good happen to to this person because they're so wrong or evil or whatever it might be. Wes Huff, you know him?

16:45 Yeah, he's recently on. Diary of Aceo. The Diary of Aceo and that video, I was reading some, I, I wasn't reading them. Someone was reading some of those comments and one of the persons commented on there, they're like, so you're telling me a, a good person who doesn't steal, doesn't murder, can go to hell, But a, a guy in prison who's about to get the death sentence, he can get right with God and, and he go, he goes to heaven. Did I say that right? A good person, he's going to go to hell and the, and the, and it just, it, it changes the, you know, the mercy aspect because if you are in Jonah, hopefully you can't. I think Jonah came to the point 'cause he wrote the book where he's like, OK, it's mercy.

17:29 None of us deserve it. None of us didn't deserve it. We didn't deserve it. It's, it's a, it's grace. So. Man, I, I think, I think that's good. And then Jonah, he knows like all the right things and it's a good, a good litmus test. Is your theology fueling your mission, what you're called to do, what God has put in his word to perform or work out? Or is it your pride, like, you know, all these things, but you're like reluctant or yeah, I don't know, not not leaving it out, but I love it. It's like one of these. There's so many different genres in Scripture. You know, satire is, is a genre that's used and, you know, I think big take away Jonah, it's in the Bible not to show us how, you know, prophets should should behave.

18:16 He really shows us how we resist the mercy of God when it reaches the quote UN quote, wrong people or, you know, this kind of thing. And so I really like this story. I like seeing these. I've got a couple other ideas for for future ones, but let me look at what we got in the what works. We talked about this a little bit, but I really like this talking about these books that happened in the days when there was no king. So you think judges at the same time as Ruth and you see these different overtones. Why? You know, Ruth is right next to judges and then we got one. This one might be a stretch, but Speaking of prophets, I would like love to go through the story of Jeremiah and Abedmelek.

19:02 And it's more of maybe not narrow to juxtaposition, but want to throw it in there 'cause I feel like no, no one talks about Abedmelek, you know, and it is this ironic picture or, you know, we and I think we see maybe more of that, like the high brought low, low brought high. It's more of that kind of story than these things pushed together. So anyway. Fish or whale? Oh, the the $1,000,000 question, that's great, you know? You know, we make we make scientific distinctions that. That that wasn't, that wasn't around, yeah, didn't have all the taxonomy. Yeah, and there are people that go to the mat. Dude, I grew up in a system that was big on that.

19:42 Yeah, not well or fish not well. And I'm like and from what I understand the word in the Hebrew and the word in the Septuagint, they both mean large sea animal. It could have been used for whales or fish. Also good thing to talk about Jonah. This alludes to sight and sound a little bit real historical person or parable allegory because this is one of those. Places. Midrash this is one of those books that you know, if you look at, you know, a place like the Bible project, they Elaine like probably not real.

20:25 You know, it's one of those like, it's just a nice story to teach us something where, you know, you get. It's weird, for Jesus sake. That's the thing, right? Just like Jonah was in a whale or fish. Because I think in that same passage talks about the Queen of Sheba, talks about Jonah and talks about, I mean, I think it's all bumped in with like real people also 'cause that would be weird because you wouldn't want to use a fake story and say such or some, I don't know. It's like it is, it is. It would be more. Weird. If I was like talking to a crowd and I was like, you know, Winston Churchill, how he was there for his people and he saved the day and just like Gandalf, when. He just marched.

21:06 That's exactly. That's the. Thing you wouldn't do that. You have, like a real, yeah, Queen of Sheba and then a fake story. It sounds strange. Yeah. And so that's where like I, I really like Bible Project for like this good contextual stuff. But they, they like float in that realm. Yeah, you know, some of this like kind of pivotal, pivotal. So I think that's, that's important too 'cause that changes and they lean into this satirical story. It's clearly, you know, everything's Topsy Turi, so it couldn't be real. But at the same time. Couldn't be real. Just couldn't. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, something, something else. Any any other Jonah tidbits before we go to our last take or final take? No, no, I, I, I always, well, I'll just say this.

21:49 I don't know why I have this mental image, but have you seen like at a fair, like the little Kitty roller coasters and it looks like a, a Caterpillar or something like the different cars? That's what always comes into mind when the Caterpillar comes out to eat. I think it's something that's just like circling up the vine and eating it and and coming down so. I love it. The last thing I'll say about Jonah, Oh my goodness, did I lose it. I lost it. If I can find it. I love how Jonah ends because it's weird. I don't remember how it ends, but it says it. Just like falls off a Cliff, right? Yeah, it's very weird. And should I not? God is talking and should I not pity Nineveh, that great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who don't know their right hand from their left and all so much cattle and then stops like that's what gets me all so much cattle.

22:41 And then it's done. Yeah, yeah. So there we go. Let's talk. Let's shift to the final take or the last take. I never know. We we, we don't know. Yeah. Final Countdown. I'll tell you, I'll tell you what, my wife, she really likes the dancer at the front end. Chloe does too. She's like, how long are you going to do this? Because I don't like it. When I listen to it, I'm like, OK, it sounds more professional now when we have a little bit of snippet at the front of of the of the introduce the lesson in the podcast and go and and I think if someone didn't know us. Yeah, it's if you know, you wanna hear more. If you don't know, it's like there's more like. Talking to to hang around. So maybe we should put a poll up, but the only people who vote will be Chloe and Leanne.

23:26 Then wow, I talked to Clay. I was like, right, we gotta get Clay back on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We we talked about doing a political podcast yes, we should do that. We. Should do that talk. About, you know, what is a Christian's right response to politics? We just got to schedule that because we're going to have some guests on for that. One. Yeah, that would. Be good. Yeah. It's not just Zach and I going no, yeah, we're going to do it with some guests there, some guests that had been on here before. Oh, teaser. You might hear his voice every episode now. Wow, what? He says. Fire up that twingy music. Fire up that Twingy music. What a what a time to be alive.

24:09 Yeah, that would actually be really good. We should. I think it really is just finding a time that works. Just do it and penciling it in and carving it out. That's what we had to do for our D&D sessions. Just put it in and it happens. You put it in it and it works and people like it and it's like just need to need to make it, need to make it happen. Yeah, so that's one thing. Lane was like, man, the answer at the beginning. Her preference, you know? Yeah, you can't. You can't please everyone. It's like, yeah, yeah, we'll see. I mean, we thanks to new subscribers out there, we got a uptick about 10, which is good for us.

24:50 We're small enough to 10. We appreciate that. So. Maybe next, Yeah, I think we talked about it next soccer practice, hits of phones. Just be like you can either run 10. Laps or or subscribe to my podcast. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I don't do it that overtly, but I, you know, there are times when people say ask me something like, well, I'm actually going to go record a podcast. I'll go, you do a podcast. I'm like, yeah. Do we have a podcast on old Earth for young earth creation? Have we done this? I It seems like we maybe have. I feel like we have but. It's something that you can revisit. It's one of those things I used to, you know, talk about Greg Kochel. Yeah, he there are some perennial topics that he will bring up over and over.

25:30 Again. And people want to know, Yeah. And it's not just that you want to know it, but as a listener you don't get everything the. First time. That's a very good point. So I think it's fine to repeat stuff. I mean, we know I reformed MD. He's all over it. He he gets it all the first time. But not everyone's as bright as as our doctor. Reformed MD. You tell me, Old Earth, Young Earth, What are we? What are we working with? I think, I don't know, I don't know, maybe he can comment on on this one if he makes it this far and. Listen to the band. This will be a true test he should give like AI don't know some my. Guess is he'd be lean old Earth, but we grew up in a very strong young earth.

26:11 Like, you know, Awana and all of our VBS, they use the answers in Genesis VBS. And so we'd have songs that would make fun of millions of years and stuff. And I, I'd be like. Yeah, that's great. Like, oh man, yeah. I feel like things are, it's been a it's, it's better, it's better times for old Earthers, you know, in, in recent years. I think so. Like, if you talk to some people at our church, they always just assume that the default position is young Earth. I mean, yeah, young Earth. And I'm the anomaly. And I'm like, what? Outside of like the older people at churches, the more and more people I talk to that they are more and more old Earth. Yeah, I'll tell ya.

27:01 It's I mean, before long, give it some time and you'll you'll be aw mill too. You know, I feel like old earth and aw mill do go together and I feel like pre mill and young earth go together as a general rule, because I think young earth is very Baptisty of like 50 years ago. That's like if you believe the Bible is real or literal, your dispensational pre mill. And if you believe it's literal, you believe it's 24 hour days versus you think think maybe more of a literary framework where you're like, hey, I'm OK with AWMIL, I'm OK with old Earth. I think as a not, you know, stereotyping, but having like a mix is interesting. Yeah, it's funny you say that.

27:41 So Speaking of Reformed MD on theology matters, he posted this just about one day ago, 23 hours ago from this recording. It says he's quoting from Romans, he says. And so all Israel will be saved, just as written. The deliverer will come from Zion. He will remove ungodliness from Jacob, and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. That's Romans 11/26 through 27, the LSB. Oh. Yeah, legacy standard. Legacy of the macarthurs and he says his question is what does all Israel will be saved mean all descendants of Jacob throughout history only a future imminent Jews be saved. All of spiritual Israel believing Jews and Gentiles and one person commented a future. A future remnant is the only understanding that does not create problems.

28:29 Also, Paul was never under the impression that Gentiles were Israel, so neither should we. And this was my comment and I was like, it would this would be weird for me to have made 25 years ago, but I'm I don't want everything. I'm going to be Amil. But this is what I said. I said I would be hard pressed to say Paul was never under the impression that Gentiles were it quote Israel when he makes same such as not all Israel is Israel and Israel of God, IE not the national Israel. But I think it would be safe to say that an unqualified Israel never refers to Gentiles and Paul's writings. But here at least arguably Israel is qualified by the word all.

29:14 And given that the lead up to this speaks of what one might say are both natural and grafted in Israel, I think it follows that all Israel could refer to these put together, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, that's probably something that a, a covenant theologian. Yeah. But I'm AI am a progressive dispensationalist. Yeah, yeah. You know. It's like, it's like, how closely can you get to covenant theology without being covenant? Theology, yeah, that's great. I bring this up, my sister is like, I don't know, she teaches some fancy school and she's doing, she's asked to be on like a panel with other Christian schools in the area. And it's really, how do you teach creation to your Christian schools?

29:57 Like what views do you espouse? Do you give them a overview and let them choose? Do you push one and say these other ones are bad? Like where do you draw the line? High school. High school, high school, give them all the information. And she teaches like her school, like she'll teach in conjunction like college credit courses for like Cedarville for her school essentially. And this this person doing the panel is from Regent University in like Virginia Beecher, whatever. And they're, and she and they're having people on the panel from I don't know if you know them, it's like bio logos. That's like theistic evolution, right?

30:38 So. Francis Schaffer? No, not Francis Schaffer. Francis Collins. Yes, yes. And so my sister's like if they're different. Bio logo. She's like, I don't want to be on this panel. They need, we need to get like, we need to get like, you know, heavy hitters like what? Why? You know, she's like what? But I don't know reasons. To believe would be good. They're kind of in that middle, middle ground. Middle ground. My mic. 'S I told her Answers in Genesis would be. The best thing I'm just kidding. We may so if if the the sound quality just changed my mic dropped, but so we can go off of the sound sound the the the sound from the the camera. So if it just went now you're getting the camera room noise, so. But that's going to be thinking more about old Earth, young Earth, when she was bringing stuff up and she's like, oh, asking about this, asking about this.

31:22 And I was like, I need to look back if we've done one or not. I think if they're elementary, just say what the Bible says on day one. He created this and you don't have to go into some people interpret. You might have, there's probably 1 kid that might ask some questions. Yeah, but they're probably not going to be like 24 hours. It says a 24 hour day. Is this a calendar day? Is this when the sun's out? Is this a long run or you know, stuff like that. I think you just teach what the Bible says literally. Yeah, yeah. And you don't have to plug in a lot of younger or older being behind it you and then as they get, oh, 'cause you don't want to be you don't do that with other things in the Bible. And it'll be like, will Calvinists believe this and Armenian believe this?

32:07 Especially if you're teaching this, I think it's come from the context of what are you teaching in science class or whatever too, you know what I mean? Yeah, if it's. High school science, I think. And. Lay it all out there. It's funny, 'cause the school I went to is like, it would be like, here's a matching section on all the bad views, the oh, the gap theory. Oh, evolution, like everything's like, you know what I mean? It's like, and it's like, OK, now here's the real, it was funny. It was very, it was very answers in Genesis, like, I think where it was like young earth, this, you know, man. And did you? Were you like, Yeah, like you just yeah. It's all, it's all I knew. It's all as it was like middle school, like 7th, 8th grade, It's like and. You wouldn't necessarily say you're older now, but you're like, more sympathetic to it, yeah.

32:52 Yeah, honestly, Michael, I want to be Old Earth because I like to be a naysayer in the circles I run in. Like it's fun to buck, buck up against the crowd a little bit. And I think Old Earth is like, totally acceptable. I I think when you register, I just feel like young Earth makes sense. But I'm like, totally. I'm like old Earth. Great. All the people I love are like old Earth. So it's like, you know, yeah, that's the big one. But it's, yeah, it's like we should maybe I'll revisit it a little bit, but I think it's all changing, 'cause now it's like, yeah, 'cause now Baptists are like, aw Mills, OK, I think all those things do go together because now I think everything was so strict in like the 50s and 60s and 70s, and now there's more. Old Earth Intel AW Mill.

33:40 Well, it's because it's like if you if you read Revelation literally, you're gonna be pre mill. If you read Genesis literally, it's a test of inerrancy. But now it's not a test of inerrancy. Like Presbyterians I think were more apt to be old Earth and Amil and Baptist were like young earth and pre mill. Because it's that's if you believe the Bible is true. Yeah, I don't. My only push back would be to say that it seems like, well, when I read Genesis, yeah, we're it's like we're launching podcast Part 2. When I read Genesis, it seems like there's a logical order to things and that's why I'm a day ager.

34:23 I I think those things were created in a day. I just don't put the same definition of day there as you do or not you but young earthers do. So to me that seems it's very straightforward and that it makes sense of like the sun being seen on day 4 when it was probably there when God said let there be light because all from day 2 on, well from day one on, you have God created the heavens and the earth. And then this view, the perspective immediately changes and the Earth was without form and Dartmouth spawned the face of the death and the Spirit of God moved on face of the waters. So everything becomes Earth's perspective. And so and when God said and let there be light, I know people make a big deal about that's the first time a photon. And I'm like, that is not the first time a photon existed. That's when, from Earth's perspective, fusion hit in the sun, and now there's light on this planet that God is slowly making habitable for us.

35:26 Yeah, we should do we should do what I would like to do. We probably have already done this, but we should go through like the different prominent theories of old Earth that are. And then we should, I would I would also do if we haven't done it is historical, look at young earth, old Earth and just see like where the ebbs and flows have been. Because I think that's interesting because I, I've talked, I was talking to people about this and two people were claiming like, and this happens in a lot. I think everyone's like Augustine supports my view. Like Augustine supports everyone's view. And you're like, how are these competing views? But Augustine supports it you. Know, I think Augustine was an old Earther. That's what I I was talking to my sister. And I, and I was, I was saying my understanding is that old Earth, or at the very least a non, a literal 24 hour day has been very prevalent.

36:17 Maybe it's not billions of years, but maybe it's, you know, either way. But that's like the gateway where it opens up everything. I was like, I'm pretty sure. And she was like, Oh, I was reading and but she was reading a Cedarville University textbook and they were saying like, old Earth came to prominence like in the 8, like, so it'd be interesting to do a look back in the narrative, you know? Is Old Earth only came about once, Charles Darwin wrote. That's what, yes. Exactly. That's what origin of the species and that's that's. What she connected with. And I was like false. And my under, and I haven't researched a lot, but I was like, I think there have been a lot of people in church history like prominent names like even like like the Augustans or the Origins or the Aquinases that may, I don't know this, but like names like that, you know what I mean?

36:57 Aquinas thought that you couldn't necessarily know that the universe wasn't eternal except for the Bible said it. So all that to say, I think it would be interesting to do that because I think what you would see is you might see a spike in young earth in response, some of Darwin stuff just around that time, like, but I, I think it's like all wrapped around like fundamentalism and inerrancy of scripture, at least recent history is why people cling to it because it's, it kind of was a test of inerrancy. And if you didn't, you might as well be a progressive, you know, Or that was the thinking at least 'cause this. I also read that. When would you know what year the Chicago statement on an errand he was written? Was that like 7878?

37:38 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. The year I was born. Hey, there you go, 'cause I somewhere. Around there. I could be wrong, I need to look this up now. I think I have heard that initially when it was being drafted, one of the things in there they were gonna put in Young Earth and people like RC Sproull and Wayne Grudem were like, don't put that in there because I can't sign it. And so they kept it out to get make it more ecumenical and Protestantism. But it's like you would leave out some heavy hitters like like a Wayne Grudem or like RC Sproull or these people that could not affirm that. But I think that's it. That shows. My goodness. What it was all wrapped up. October 1978 I'm not going to give you a day 'cause it doesn't give you the day, but that's that's my literal birth month.

38:24 Man, that's pretty crazy. So, you know, it's good. Two good things came out. They're not small. 78 that that's so anyway with with that it's like I think that's why I don't think people were necessarily anti young earth, but I think people thought that you kind of I thought that the school I went to that it's kind of if you believe the Bible, I you didn't know these other options exist. But now I think people know these other options exist. Yeah. Just a circle back. Yeah, 'cause I kind of dove deep. I probably take Genesis more literal than I take Revelation and I'm an old Earther but a pre meal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so. Funny because I read Revelation I'm and it's kind of like Isaiah. There was a time when I was taught Revelation, I was like, this is what the trumpets are, this is what the seals are. This is what the bowls are.

39:13 And you, you knew. And I think the more you remember, like maybe five years ago, you did. I did. I teach revelation. For impact, yeah. Was it team teacher or I just did it you? Just said it. Yeah, yeah. And you had mentioned something, I don't think I even understood what you were saying then, but because I hadn't heard it. Yeah. But this idea that it's like cyclical. Recapitulating. Recapitulating. The more I look at that, I'm like, that probably makes. Sense. Yeah, when you like. Honestly, when I revelation, I see recapitulation everywhere. When I read parts of the Gospels, I seem I, it's, I, it's So when I read different scripture, it's hard for me to piece together the end times. I read Isaiah.

39:53 I don't know. It's yeah, it makes it challenging. Recapitulation is just that. It's the same story told from different points of view, different themes, but you're not getting A-Z, you're getting A to FA to FA to F, but from different viewpoints, which makes sense of the different things that happen, kind of. Over and over again. And you're like this woman in Babylon in the middle. Like, what's going on? Yeah. So yeah, that that is great. And maybe we should do, have we done a Revelation series? I don't think so. That would be challenging. But like maybe even look at the five different sections of recapitulator, however many there are or also on the dock it would be, it would be great to do an episode on dispensational pre mill. Yeah, post historical pre mill.

40:42 I think I'm there. Enough to do one on spiritual warfare? What is it really? Yeah. Oh yeah. It has to be good too. We got a lot of good ideas. I I think this is great. And yeah, we got some good, good content that would be helpful. And those are like some of the perennial questions, I feel like. And I feel like it's, it's really hard to make this topic simple. So we probably won't know it perfectly, but it'd be great if we could just like lay it out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great, We really rambled on. So, yeah, and one last thing. Yeah, I, and I'll say this in reform to me, he's going to like why say a question? We've talked about it offline since you know, he's in he's in the family through through marriage. But if you have a question, the point is if you have a question that you'd like us to answer and you'd trust us with giving you at least our thoughts, I'd love to, you know, put that in the comments or.

41:32 That would be cool. If you know me, you can text me like reformed in D does every now and then. Nice. But he would like us to maybe revisit middle knowledge. I know it's your favorite topic. Love middle knowledge. Yeah. What's the other term that goes with middle knowledge? Well, see, I don't even want to say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. William and Craig has made it go along with Middle Knowledge. Mullen a or whatever his name is, he made it go along with middle knowledge. But middle knowledge was not historically always coupled with Mollenism. So that is the problem. You. It's like the this old Earth thing. You can reject Mullen ISM but embrace mental knowledge. They don't.

42:15 Have to go together. Just like all the earth and I see evolution don't have to go together. Yeah, yeah, man. Good stuff. Yeah, I love it. Well, anything else you got? I mean, that was a lot. That was a lot. That was a lot We should. Peel that off and just make it be Make it all. Separate. That's great. Awesome. Well, that's our take. Thanks for listening to Take 2. Find us wherever you find podcasts and on YouTube for those who want to watch our video cast.