Narrative Juxtaposition: How the Bible Speaks Through Story Placement | Part 3

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Narrative juxtaposition.
How the Bible speaks through

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story placement.
What a pretentious title.

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Seems like there should be a
song like Jonah, Jonah, Jonah,

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Jonah.
Oh yeah, but there's that is the

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tune of some other What is the
money?

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Money, money, money, money.
Yeah, yeah.

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That's why I didn't know What?
Yeah, there is.

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Yeah, Jonah, there you go.
But you, you nailed it.

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We're talking about Jonah.
If you zoom out, this series is

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really, really analyzing why
certain things are placed in

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certain places within scripture.
Previously we've talked about

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these Mark in sandwiches where
where Mark like breaks up a

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story and puts a different story
in between.

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Not random helps prove an
overarching point.

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We talked about Matthew, this
famously Jewish gospel when

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Gentiles are inserted in it
carries a lot of weight.

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I like this one because Jonah,
everyone knows Jonah.

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Even in the Sunday school three
weeks, you've probably heard

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it's like you got Noah's ark,
you got Jonah, you're hitting

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David and Goliath, you're
hitting the beats very well

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known prophet.
Most evangelicals probably can't

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say a whole lot about most
prophets, but for some reason

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that's like a good story.
It's because it stands out where

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it's placed compared to
everything else.

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It's like very different.
And the narrative is like, all

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together.
It's.

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Like spread out over first and
second kings or something like

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that.
You know, it's, it's all there.

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Yeah, it it's good.
I, I for one, you know,

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listeners may or may not know
that generally I will put

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together like a series.
Zach will put together a series.

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And we don't always read each
other's notes.

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So I'll just say I felt like I
learned stuff in the last two,

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two episodes.
So this has been good to me,

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'cause it's just pointing out
stuff that I, I think I said in,

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in the last one of this is like
it's hidden in plain sight.

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It's right there.
That's exactly right.

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And you've been in church your
whole life.

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I know I've been in church my
whole life and it's like you

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don't see these things that
connecting the bigger picture.

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I've, I've come to gain a
greater appreciation of someone

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who I don't like fiction.
I don't read, but it's like you

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just like when you read
scripture.

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Maybe I should, maybe I'll pick
up fiction and understand it

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more.
But you, you see how these

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things are woven so masterfully
together.

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You're like, wow, I it's so in
there like you don't even notice

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it.
But when you see it.

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So anyway, the, the, the claim
when we're thinking about Jonah,

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we, we see this intentional
placement among all the other

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prophets, these prophetic books.
And really what we see, you

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know, big theme of Jonah is
God's relentless mercy.

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But we see it in a very strange
satirical way where we we really

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see the moral superiority of non
believers, non Jews, people you

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would not expect.
It kind of flips everything on

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its head.
Yeah, yeah.

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Where it's like Jewish.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Same kind of thing over God's
own, not just his people, but

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God's own prophet.
It's just, it's just a very,

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very strange.
So let's start by talking about

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why is Jonah here 'cause when
you read it, it sounds like a

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satire.
And when I think of satire, I

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didn't pay attention a lot in
the literature class, but

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there's always one story that
like comes to my mind.

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You know what story this is?
That's like a classic satire

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story.
I'm blanking on what it is, but

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it's like the one where you eat
the babies or whatever.

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Do you know what I'm saying?
There's like a famine and we

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should have looked this up.
Oh, you're talking about?

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Yeah.
This is a This is in the Bible.

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No, no, no, no, no, no.
Just a literature class.

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Like the It's like a classic
satire story.

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If Jonathan White was here, do
you know what?

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Do you know what?
This is do you know what I'm

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just realizing?
We we never took it to the next

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level.
I'm so bad at this.

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Well, let's do it now.
Let's go ahead and take it to

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the next level.
Let's fire up that twang of

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music.
From the hearts of the Low

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Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level.

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We are back.
We're talking Jonah and you.

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Looked up the book.
I looked it up.

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We're talking satire.
And when I think satire, I don't

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know why this stuck with me, but
in the literature class, I feel

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like we would always read or
talk about A Modest Proposal,

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written by Jonathan Swift in
1729.

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It's a famous satirical essay
suggesting that the Irish poor,

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they sell their children as food
to the rich to alleviate their

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poverty.
It highlights through dark

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humor, the calluses of the upper
class, you know, these kind of

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things.
So it's all I think about when I

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think of satire.
We didn't study that man.

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We started the Lottery, which
was a a short story and but it

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wasn't satire.
It was, you know, it was.

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I don't know it was.
Dark.

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It was dark.
Those things, the dark ones,

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like stand out to you.
I mean like stand up to me like

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did.
You read the lottery.

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I did not read the Lottery.
Maybe you were in the lottery?

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I was reading MoD's proposal and
we were on different tracks.

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Also makes me think of Isn't it
ironic, the song that's not

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really filled with a lot of
irony anyway.

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It's great, but satire?
So I guess if we're framing it,

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when you think of prophets,
what, what typically comes to

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your mind?
Like what?

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Like prophets in the Bible?
Like what kind of things?

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You think of like these fiery
personalities, although they're

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probably not all fiery, but you
know, 'cause but in general,

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they're, they're going out and
they're saying thus says the

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Lord, and they're, they're
admonishing people.

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They're going to the task and
they're saying, you, you gotta

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get in line.
And you know, they're there.

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They suffer suffering, bring
about suffering.

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You know, you think about Elijah
stopping the rain for three

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years and that kind of stuff.
But you, you know, think Elijah,

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Elijah Nathan going into Dave
and say you are the man.

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Yeah, right.
Yeah, it's like this judgement

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you start reading through like
the some of these longer

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prophetic books like Isaiah,
Jeremiah.

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It's like these long oracles.
It's like this poetic judgement.

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It's hard to follow.
They have, you know, this type

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of genre, these, this covenant,
a lawsuit.

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You, you've done this, so now
you're going to get this.

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Jonah doesn't really have any of
those things.

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Instead, it's a prophet, not
who's going out there and

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Speaking of God's behalf.
Really, it's someone who's

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running away from God, someone
who's not saying repent, repent.

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He actually is resenting
repentance.

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He hopes these people don't
repent.

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He's like, I don't want to bring
that message to them because I

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know you're a merciful God.
Instead of saying you're going

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to be judged, you need to turn
from your sins so you can have

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God's mercy.
Jonah's like, yeah, I'm upset

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that God's merciful Very.
It's disorienting if you're

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expecting Hosea, Amos, Micah.
And you get Jonah because it's

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right in the middle of the these
books, these these books full of

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judgement and warning.
And really, Jonah is the

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satirical prophetic book written
against some of this prophetic

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pride.
So let's let's talk about some

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of the genre, the literary
stuff.

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You mentioned it.
It's like a nice, neat narrative

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which you know, most people
can't tell you.

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They probably know the name
Isaiah and they know maybe a few

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facts, but it's hard to Or
Jeremiah, but it's hard to tell

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the story sometimes for some of
these prophets.

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Think Jeremiah's easier than
Isaiah?

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I read Isaiah and I'm like, if
I'm honest, it's probably an

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elder.
Shouldn't say this.

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Like, I don't know what's going
on, 'cause, 'cause I don't know

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who to.
It's.

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So is this messianic?
Is this in times?

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Is this?
And it's all like scatter.

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Kind of, I know.
And.

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It's like it's hard for me to
put together.

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It's it's it, it really is a
lot.

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And so you're you like see this
in a lot of the prophetic books

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and Jonah really uses narrative
instead of this Oracle uses

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humor sometimes, you know, some
dark humor instead of doom,

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irony instead of the these
instructions.

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And Jonah overall teaches this
theology through embarrassment.

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Like all the people you think
that would be the quote UN quote

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good people are bad and all the
bad people are good.

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It it's this moral reversal that
where the prophet morally the

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worst character and then these
you come Pagan after Pagan after

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Pagan the morally best
characters very, very the.

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People on the boat, they're
gonna be obedient, yeah.

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Bananas and so you think to
yourself, what kind of prophetic

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book makes the prophet the
problem?

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You know, it's not like Isaiah
is the and you know, it's like

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they're just trying to, you
know, Ezekiel's just trying to

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bear the message of God and he's
getting all this hate.

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Not so with Jonah.
So let's talk about Pagan faith

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versus this prophetic failure.
And he mentioned it.

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The sailors.
So the sailors, Jonah 1:00 we,

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we learn from them that they're
Pagan, that they're polytheistic

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and that they're scared with
this storm.

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So you kind of, you kind of know
they're not worshiping Yahweh.

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They worship multiple gods.
But you, you talked about it,

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you, you kind of see where they
start and where they go just

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with their words and it's, it's
kind of crazy.

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It's like.
Accidental evangelism wherever

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he goes.
That is, that is crazy.

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Yeah.
He's like, not trying to

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evangelize, but everyone's like
coming to Yahweh.

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Look at this fool, but his God's
strong.

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We better obey his God.
That exactly.

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They they start out praying to
their gods, then they kind of

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want to find out what's really
going on.

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Like Jonah, you know what's
going on.

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They show fear of Yahweh.
They offer sacrifices, they make

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vows.
Jonah's not making a lot of

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vows, not not offering a lot of
sacrifice.

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He's sleeping.
He he avoids like prayer.

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He he technically knows the
theology but doesn't act on it.

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See, he's, I mean you, you hate
to say this, but he's kind of a

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loser.
He, he kind of is.

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You look at this and you're like
these, these Pagan sailors that

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don't know any better are like,
man, you're, you're doing the

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right thing.
So the pagans act like the

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prophet.
They're seeking God and the

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prophet acts like a Pagan.
Have you seen Sight and Sound

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Productions?
I may.

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Have it in Pennsylvania and
Missouri and Missouri I think.

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I've seen them like when I was
kid like maybe once or

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something.
Yeah, so the one in Missouri,

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they had the Jonah.
Oh yeah.

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And it they were, they're
they're reading into it.

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But I guess there's another.
There's a Jonah's mentioned

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somewhere else.
We don't know if it's the same.

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Jonah.
But they're they're leaning on

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that.
Yeah, yeah.

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That he had heard from God.
And so they're making this whole

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back story about, you know, he
knows as a man he's gonna be a

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prophet and he's waiting to be
that Jeremiah and that.

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And then he's like, go, I want
you go prophesied to your

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enemies.
And then he's like, I can't do

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that.
Wow.

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So yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a little bit of narrative

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interpretation, but I don't
know.

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Yeah, something to something to
think about and you mentioned

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it.
So we will talk about Nineveh

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and we think about Nineveh's
reputation that precedes him,

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precedes them.
Not great people, right?

225
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:24,200
Yeah, I mean, just a lot of
terrorism from that part of the

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00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,360
country.
Yeah, Oh my goodness.

227
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,640
Violent.
Cruel.

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00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,880
Putting hooks through people's
jaws, like bringing them along

229
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,000
on lines.
It's just.

230
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,240
All these things and all these
depictions they have, it's not

231
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,000
not great.
But when they when they hear

232
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,520
this preaching, immediate
repentance, universal

233
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,360
participation, no signs
demanded.

234
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,560
They weren't saying show me a
sign.

235
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,280
They just accepted it Hook, line
and seeker sinker.

236
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,120
No resistance offered.
Not what you would expect from

237
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,200
this violent people.
Have you heard that Jonas skin

238
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,400
at this point in time may have
been like messed up from the

239
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,480
wells?
So some people say Jonas mere

240
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,720
appearance could have been it's
self a sign.

241
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,080
I'm not trying to, but you you
put like.

242
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,440
Have you seen?
That here's the guy.

243
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,680
This is very weird, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it may have

244
00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:17,120
strengthened his his case.
Yeah, I I was gonna look it up,

245
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,560
but I won't.
But you know, his sermon, it's

246
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,520
not this elaborate expository 52
week sermon through Romans.

247
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,640
It's.
Just like repent or you're gonna

248
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,560
be destroyed.
Married to the point in such a

249
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,680
overwhelming response from
Nineveh and then let's look at

250
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,160
you know what's what's Jonah's
response.

251
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,000
How does how does he respond
really with with anger.

252
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,480
He says I know you were a
gracious and merciful God.

253
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,400
He he he knew what would happen
and because Jonah knows God's

254
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,440
character.
He knows where it will lead and

255
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,600
he hates its implications.
It's not what you would think of

256
00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:02,920
a prophet that that this mission
God sent him on, God worked, God

257
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,200
changed these people and he
overall left just angry and

258
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,200
bitter.
Yeah, and I thought it might

259
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,440
have had.
Did you have any notes on the

260
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,560
the vine in the Caterpillar?
Because it's almost like the

261
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,680
vine in the Caterpillar, like
they show they kind of juxtapose

262
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,640
against.
That's good.

263
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,800
Yeah, that's good.
Too, Because yeah, he's, you

264
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,560
know, he loves them more than he
loves the vine, than the people

265
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:31,120
right in it.
Like it shows his base desires,

266
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,200
you know?
Man, and so there's a lot of

267
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,760
critique here that we we can
look at what, what does Jonah

268
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,320
essentially expose?
On one level, we see this

269
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,360
nationalism versus mission where
where Jonah wants Israel to be

270
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,440
saved from all of its enemies.
Not a bad impulse.

271
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:57,560
God is showing that Israel will
help save the world, the rest of

272
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:58,040
the world.
Yeah.

273
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,440
And that and that it shows the
difference with Jonah, what

274
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,040
Jonah wants, what what God
wants.

275
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,640
We see this tension between
obedience and compassion.

276
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,840
Jonah does obey, however
reluctantly, but doesn't doesn't

277
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,360
rejoice in this mercy has this
huge lack of compassion while

278
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,680
he's technically carrying out
what what God does and we see

279
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,320
God's mercy is poured out on
these sailors on these end

280
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,240
advice.
Even we read like on the animals

281
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,080
like it.
It's it's like everywhere in

282
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,320
this story.
The way the way the story ends

283
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:30,880
is very strange too.
It's like.

284
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,840
It's almost like God spoke some
of this through Abraham.

285
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,160
I'm gonna bless all the world
through you and your people.

286
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,120
And like like you said, it does
end with kind of like the city

287
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,160
in repentance.
We don't I wonder whatever came

288
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,240
of that.
I don't know that we have a lot

289
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,840
of history of what what they did
from this revival.

290
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,960
But yeah, yeah, I, I, I don't
know exactly, but but we see

291
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,480
that God is relentlessly
merciful.

292
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,040
And so, yeah, you step back out
this familiar story and you look

293
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,040
at Jonah among these other
prophets.

294
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:05,600
Jonah.
Jonah was really critiquing

295
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,360
prophetic pride, religious
entitlement, this nationalistic

296
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,160
theology.
And really, and I've heard this

297
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,280
often, it's, it's Jonah.
This book is really to the

298
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,240
reader, a mirror, a warning, a
rebuke.

299
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,400
When you read it, it should hit
you in the face.

300
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,960
That is the sailors and then
invites.

301
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,760
And it's not Jonah.
Because if you're reading this,

302
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,880
you might be thinking that
you're better than these people

303
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,920
or you know, God's how, how do
you view God's mercy?

304
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,720
Who are you in the story 'cause
you're, you're you.

305
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,440
You could be Jonah.
You know, maybe you're obedient.

306
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,760
You think you're doing what's
right, but is it reluctant to

307
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,800
compassion and God's really
working through these, these

308
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,840
pagans.
Yeah, I guess the question is

309
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,440
your worst political enemy.
Oh, that's a good way.

310
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,040
To But you want them to come to
a saving faith in Christ?

311
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:49,920
Yeah.
Sometimes you just want the

312
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,040
worst.
Like you're just like, I hope

313
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,080
you know that cause 'cause that,
yeah, that that's a good, good

314
00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,880
way to to frame it.
Of note, Jesus talks about

315
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,600
Jonah, you know, talks about
different prophets and we see

316
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,400
this picture of the sign of
Jonah this this greater Jonah

317
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,440
where Jesus does, you know,
three days in the belly comes

318
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,440
out resurrection.
We see that, but he's running

319
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,400
towards center.
He's embracing suffering,

320
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,840
rejoices in repentance.
And so you made the good, good

321
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,200
application.
Do we we all love mercy when

322
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,880
it's for us.
Do we love mercy when it's

323
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,120
extended to others?
And that, that can be a tough

324
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,600
one if you're just like, man, I
hope I don't want to see

325
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,360
anything good happen to to this
person because they're so wrong

326
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,120
or evil or whatever it might be.
Wes Huff, you know him?

327
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,040
Yeah, he's recently on.
Diary of Aceo.

328
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,360
The Diary of Aceo and that
video, I was reading some, I, I

329
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,040
wasn't reading them.
Someone was reading some of

330
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,720
those comments and one of the
persons commented on there,

331
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,680
they're like, so you're telling
me a, a good person who doesn't

332
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,760
steal, doesn't murder, can go to
hell, But a, a guy in prison

333
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,960
who's about to get the death
sentence, he can get right with

334
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,000
God and, and he go, he goes to
heaven.

335
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,480
Did I say that right?
A good person, he's going to go

336
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,680
to hell and the, and the, and it
just, it, it changes the, you

337
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,880
know, the mercy aspect because
if you are in Jonah, hopefully

338
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,160
you can't.
I think Jonah came to the point

339
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,880
'cause he wrote the book where
he's like, OK, it's mercy.

340
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,080
None of us deserve it.
None of us didn't deserve it.

341
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,160
We didn't deserve it.
It's, it's a, it's grace.

342
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,960
So.
Man, I, I think, I think that's

343
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,840
good.
And then Jonah, he knows like

344
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,440
all the right things and it's a
good, a good litmus test.

345
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,320
Is your theology fueling your
mission, what you're called to

346
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,680
do, what God has put in his word
to perform or work out?

347
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,240
Or is it your pride, like, you
know, all these things, but

348
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,680
you're like reluctant or yeah, I
don't know, not not leaving it

349
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,480
out, but I love it.
It's like one of these.

350
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,920
There's so many different genres
in Scripture.

351
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:09,560
You know, satire is, is a genre
that's used and, you know, I

352
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,480
think big take away Jonah, it's
in the Bible not to show us how,

353
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,200
you know, prophets should should
behave.

354
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,400
He really shows us how we resist
the mercy of God when it reaches

355
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,800
the quote UN quote, wrong people
or, you know, this kind of

356
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,680
thing.
And so I really like this story.

357
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,440
I like seeing these.
I've got a couple other ideas

358
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,160
for for future ones, but let me
look at what we got in the what

359
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:34,760
works.
We talked about this a little

360
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,240
bit, but I really like this
talking about these books that

361
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,520
happened in the days when there
was no king.

362
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:47,760
So you think judges at the same
time as Ruth and you see these

363
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,160
different overtones.
Why?

364
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,440
You know, Ruth is right next to
judges and then we got one.

365
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,920
This one might be a stretch, but
Speaking of prophets, I would

366
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,840
like love to go through the
story of Jeremiah and Abedmelek.

367
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,640
And it's more of maybe not
narrow to juxtaposition, but

368
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,800
want to throw it in there 'cause
I feel like no, no one talks

369
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,760
about Abedmelek, you know, and
it is this ironic picture or,

370
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,000
you know, we and I think we see
maybe more of that, like the

371
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,480
high brought low, low brought
high.

372
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,680
It's more of that kind of story
than these things pushed

373
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,680
together.
So anyway.

374
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,160
Fish or whale?
Oh, the the $1,000,000 question,

375
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,320
that's great, you know?
You know, we make we make

376
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,240
scientific distinctions that.
That that wasn't, that wasn't

377
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,520
around, yeah, didn't have all
the taxonomy.

378
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,720
Yeah, and there are people that
go to the mat.

379
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,120
Dude, I grew up in a system that
was big on that.

380
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,280
Yeah, not well or fish not well.
And I'm like and from what I

381
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:53,320
understand the word in the
Hebrew and the word in the

382
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:59,160
Septuagint, they both mean large
sea animal.

383
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,800
It could have been used for
whales or fish.

384
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,880
Also good thing to talk about
Jonah.

385
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,000
This alludes to sight and sound
a little bit real historical

386
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,200
person or parable allegory
because this is one of those.

387
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,600
Places.
Midrash this is one of those

388
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,480
books that you know, if you look
at, you know, a place like the

389
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,160
Bible project, they Elaine like
probably not real.

390
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,080
You know, it's one of those
like, it's just a nice story to

391
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,000
teach us something where, you
know, you get.

392
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,480
It's weird, for Jesus sake.
That's the thing, right?

393
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,640
Just like Jonah was in a whale
or fish.

394
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,000
Because I think in that same
passage talks about the Queen of

395
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,920
Sheba, talks about Jonah and
talks about, I mean, I think

396
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,960
it's all bumped in with like
real people also 'cause that

397
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,320
would be weird because you
wouldn't want to use a fake

398
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,840
story and say such or some, I
don't know.

399
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,480
It's like it is, it is.
It would be more.

400
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,080
Weird.
If I was like talking to a crowd

401
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,000
and I was like, you know,
Winston Churchill, how he was

402
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,040
there for his people and he
saved the day and just like

403
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,760
Gandalf, when.
He just marched.

404
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:07,960
That's exactly.
That's the.

405
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,360
Thing you wouldn't do that.
You have, like a real, yeah,

406
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,120
Queen of Sheba and then a fake
story.

407
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:13,960
It sounds strange.
Yeah.

408
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,800
And so that's where like I, I
really like Bible Project for

409
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,400
like this good contextual stuff.
But they, they like float in

410
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,280
that realm.
Yeah, you know, some of this

411
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,280
like kind of pivotal, pivotal.
So I think that's, that's

412
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,560
important too 'cause that
changes and they lean into this

413
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,200
satirical story.
It's clearly, you know,

414
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,400
everything's Topsy Turi, so it
couldn't be real.

415
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,640
But at the same time.
Couldn't be real.

416
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,840
Just couldn't.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you

417
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,960
know, something, something else.
Any any other Jonah tidbits

418
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,080
before we go to our last take or
final take?

419
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,360
No, no, I, I, I always, well,
I'll just say this.

420
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,880
I don't know why I have this
mental image, but have you seen

421
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,920
like at a fair, like the little
Kitty roller coasters and it

422
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,280
looks like a, a Caterpillar or
something like the different

423
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,240
cars?
That's what always comes into

424
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,040
mind when the Caterpillar comes
out to eat.

425
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,560
I think it's something that's
just like circling up the vine

426
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,680
and eating it and and coming
down so.

427
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,360
I love it.
The last thing I'll say about

428
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,400
Jonah, Oh my goodness, did I
lose it.

429
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,360
I lost it.
If I can find it.

430
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,080
I love how Jonah ends because
it's weird.

431
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,440
I don't remember how it ends,
but it says it.

432
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:26,960
Just like falls off a Cliff,
right?

433
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,400
Yeah, it's very weird.
And should I not?

434
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,240
God is talking and should I not
pity Nineveh, that great city in

435
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,760
which there are more than
120,000 persons who don't know

436
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,520
their right hand from their left
and all so much cattle and then

437
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,880
stops like that's what gets me
all so much cattle.

438
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,360
And then it's done.
Yeah, yeah.

439
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:44,880
So there we go.
Let's talk.

440
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,640
Let's shift to the final take or
the last take.

441
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,560
I never know.
We we, we don't know.

442
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,200
Yeah.
Final Countdown.

443
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,720
I'll tell you, I'll tell you
what, my wife, she really likes

444
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,880
the dancer at the front end.
Chloe does too.

445
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,480
She's like, how long are you
going to do this?

446
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,920
Because I don't like it.
When I listen to it, I'm like,

447
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,120
OK, it sounds more professional
now when we have a little bit of

448
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,960
snippet at the front of of the
of the introduce the lesson in

449
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,560
the podcast and go and and I
think if someone didn't know us.

450
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,400
Yeah, it's if you know, you
wanna hear more.

451
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:19,920
If you don't know, it's like
there's more like.

452
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,160
Talking to to hang around.
So maybe we should put a poll

453
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,400
up, but the only people who vote
will be Chloe and Leanne.

454
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,360
Then wow, I talked to Clay.
I was like, right, we gotta get

455
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:32,960
Clay back on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

456
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,200
We we talked about doing a
political podcast yes, we should

457
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:37,800
do that.
We.

458
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,720
Should do that talk.
About, you know, what is a

459
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,720
Christian's right response to
politics?

460
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,400
We just got to schedule that
because we're going to have some

461
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,520
guests on for that.
One.

462
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,880
Yeah, that would.
Be good.

463
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,360
Yeah.
It's not just Zach and I going

464
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:53,160
no, yeah, we're going to do it
with some guests there, some

465
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,040
guests that had been on here
before.

466
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,200
Oh, teaser.
You might hear his voice every

467
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,880
episode now.
Wow, what?

468
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,840
He says.
Fire up that twingy music.

469
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,920
Fire up that Twingy music.
What a what a time to be alive.

470
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,640
Yeah, that would actually be
really good.

471
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,640
We should.
I think it really is just

472
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,280
finding a time that works.
Just do it and penciling it in

473
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,760
and carving it out.
That's what we had to do for our

474
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,040
D&D sessions.
Just put it in and it happens.

475
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,040
You put it in it and it works
and people like it and it's like

476
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,360
just need to need to make it,
need to make it happen.

477
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,440
Yeah, so that's one thing.
Lane was like, man, the answer

478
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,720
at the beginning.
Her preference, you know?

479
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,600
Yeah, you can't.
You can't please everyone.

480
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,280
It's like, yeah, yeah, we'll
see.

481
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,120
I mean, we thanks to new
subscribers out there, we got a

482
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,440
uptick about 10, which is good
for us.

483
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,240
We're small enough to 10.
We appreciate that.

484
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,200
So.
Maybe next, Yeah, I think we

485
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,480
talked about it next soccer
practice, hits of phones.

486
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,280
Just be like you can either run
10.

487
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,280
Laps or or subscribe to my
podcast.

488
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,640
Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, I don't do it that

489
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,880
overtly, but I, you know, there
are times when people say ask me

490
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,440
something like, well, I'm
actually going to go record a

491
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,200
podcast.
I'll go, you do a podcast.

492
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,360
I'm like, yeah.
Do we have a podcast on old

493
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,440
Earth for young earth creation?
Have we done this?

494
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,240
I It seems like we maybe have.
I feel like we have but.

495
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,720
It's something that you can
revisit.

496
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,440
It's one of those things I used
to, you know, talk about Greg

497
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,720
Kochel.
Yeah, he there are some

498
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,400
perennial topics that he will
bring up over and over.

499
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:31,760
Again.
And people want to know, Yeah.

500
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,800
And it's not just that you want
to know it, but as a listener

501
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,000
you don't get everything the.
First time.

502
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,600
That's a very good point.
So I think it's fine to repeat

503
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,400
stuff.
I mean, we know I reformed MD.

504
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,600
He's all over it.
He he gets it all the first

505
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,440
time.
But not everyone's as bright as

506
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,520
as our doctor.
Reformed MD.

507
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,120
You tell me, Old Earth, Young
Earth, What are we?

508
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:57,480
What are we working with?
I think, I don't know, I don't

509
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,280
know, maybe he can comment on on
this one if he makes it this far

510
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:01,200
and.
Listen to the band.

511
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,800
This will be a true test he
should give like AI don't know

512
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,480
some my.
Guess is he'd be lean old Earth,

513
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,560
but we grew up in a very strong
young earth.

514
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:19,080
Like, you know, Awana and all of
our VBS, they use the answers in

515
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,320
Genesis VBS.
And so we'd have songs that

516
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,440
would make fun of millions of
years and stuff.

517
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,680
And I, I'd be like.
Yeah, that's great.

518
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:32,480
Like, oh man, yeah.
I feel like things are, it's

519
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,880
been a it's, it's better, it's
better times for old Earthers,

520
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,520
you know, in, in recent years.
I think so.

521
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,360
Like, if you talk to some people
at our church, they always just

522
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,840
assume that the default position
is young Earth.

523
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,680
I mean, yeah, young Earth.
And I'm the anomaly.

524
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:54,840
And I'm like, what?
Outside of like the older people

525
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,560
at churches, the more and more
people I talk to that they are

526
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,920
more and more old Earth.
Yeah, I'll tell ya.

527
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,480
It's I mean, before long, give
it some time and you'll you'll

528
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,200
be aw mill too.
You know, I feel like old earth

529
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,840
and aw mill do go together and I
feel like pre mill and young

530
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,920
earth go together as a general
rule, because I think young

531
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,080
earth is very Baptisty of like
50 years ago.

532
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,800
That's like if you believe the
Bible is real or literal, your

533
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,800
dispensational pre mill.
And if you believe it's literal,

534
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,560
you believe it's 24 hour days
versus you think think maybe

535
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,760
more of a literary framework
where you're like, hey, I'm OK

536
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,320
with AWMIL, I'm OK with old
Earth.

537
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,720
I think as a not, you know,
stereotyping, but having like a

538
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,080
mix is interesting.
Yeah, it's funny you say that.

539
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,560
So Speaking of Reformed MD on
theology matters, he posted this

540
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,720
just about one day ago, 23 hours
ago from this recording.

541
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:53,240
It says he's quoting from
Romans, he says.

542
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,760
And so all Israel will be saved,
just as written.

543
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,320
The deliverer will come from
Zion.

544
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,480
He will remove ungodliness from
Jacob, and this is my covenant

545
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,960
with them when I take away their
sins.

546
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,320
That's Romans 11/26 through 27,
the LSB.

547
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:07,720
Oh.
Yeah, legacy standard.

548
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,280
Legacy of the macarthurs and he
says his question is what does

549
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,520
all Israel will be saved mean
all descendants of Jacob

550
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,440
throughout history only a future
imminent Jews be saved.

551
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,080
All of spiritual Israel
believing Jews and Gentiles and

552
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,400
one person commented a future.
A future remnant is the only

553
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,480
understanding that does not
create problems.

554
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,120
Also, Paul was never under the
impression that Gentiles were

555
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:36,640
Israel, so neither should we.
And this was my comment and I

556
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,040
was like, it would this would be
weird for me to have made 25

557
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,160
years ago, but I'm I don't want
everything.

558
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,320
I'm going to be Amil.
But this is what I said.

559
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,560
I said I would be hard pressed
to say Paul was never under the

560
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,680
impression that Gentiles were it
quote Israel when he makes same

561
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:59,800
such as not all Israel is Israel
and Israel of God, IE not the

562
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,640
national Israel.
But I think it would be safe to

563
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,600
say that an unqualified Israel
never refers to Gentiles and

564
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,080
Paul's writings.
But here at least arguably

565
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,240
Israel is qualified by the word
all.

566
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,760
And given that the lead up to
this speaks of what one might

567
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,880
say are both natural and grafted
in Israel, I think it follows

568
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,440
that all Israel could refer to
these put together, right?

569
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was like, that's probably

570
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,480
something that a, a covenant
theologian.

571
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,080
Yeah.
But I'm AI am a progressive

572
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,760
dispensationalist.
Yeah, yeah.

573
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,600
You know.
It's like, it's like, how

574
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,440
closely can you get to covenant
theology without being covenant?

575
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,880
Theology, yeah, that's great.
I bring this up, my sister is

576
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,560
like, I don't know, she teaches
some fancy school and she's

577
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,880
doing, she's asked to be on like
a panel with other Christian

578
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,760
schools in the area.
And it's really, how do you

579
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,640
teach creation to your Christian
schools?

580
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,520
Like what views do you espouse?
Do you give them a overview and

581
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,320
let them choose?
Do you push one and say these

582
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,240
other ones are bad?
Like where do you draw the line?

583
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,240
High school.
High school, high school, give

584
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,440
them all the information.
And she teaches like her school,

585
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,520
like she'll teach in conjunction
like college credit courses for

586
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,720
like Cedarville for her school
essentially.

587
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:26,600
And this this person doing the
panel is from Regent University

588
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,560
in like Virginia Beecher,
whatever.

589
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,360
And they're, and she and they're
having people on the panel from

590
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,400
I don't know if you know them,
it's like bio logos.

591
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,680
That's like theistic evolution,
right?

592
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,880
So.
Francis Schaffer?

593
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,160
No, not Francis Schaffer.
Francis Collins.

594
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,960
Yes, yes.
And so my sister's like if

595
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,280
they're different.
Bio logo.

596
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,040
She's like, I don't want to be
on this panel.

597
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,720
They need, we need to get like,
we need to get like, you know,

598
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,000
heavy hitters like what?
Why?

599
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,720
You know, she's like what?
But I don't know reasons.

600
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,800
To believe would be good.
They're kind of in that middle,

601
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,760
middle ground.
Middle ground.

602
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,360
My mic.
'S I told her Answers in Genesis

603
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,480
would be.
The best thing I'm just kidding.

604
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,960
We may so if if the the sound
quality just changed my mic

605
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,560
dropped, but so we can go off of
the sound sound the the the

606
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,200
sound from the the camera.
So if it just went now you're

607
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:16,600
getting the camera room noise,
so.

608
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,000
But that's going to be thinking
more about old Earth, young

609
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,120
Earth, when she was bringing
stuff up and she's like, oh,

610
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,520
asking about this, asking about
this.

611
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,840
And I was like, I need to look
back if we've done one or not.

612
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,080
I think if they're elementary,
just say what the Bible says on

613
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,040
day one.
He created this and you don't

614
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,720
have to go into some people
interpret.

615
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,840
You might have, there's probably
1 kid that might ask some

616
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,760
questions.
Yeah, but they're probably not

617
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,560
going to be like 24 hours.
It says a 24 hour day.

618
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,640
Is this a calendar day?
Is this when the sun's out?

619
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,480
Is this a long run or you know,
stuff like that.

620
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,000
I think you just teach what the
Bible says literally.

621
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,320
Yeah, yeah.
And you don't have to plug in a

622
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,320
lot of younger or older being
behind it you and then as they

623
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,640
get, oh, 'cause you don't want
to be you don't do that with

624
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,240
other things in the Bible.
And it'll be like, will

625
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,520
Calvinists believe this and
Armenian believe this?

626
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,840
Especially if you're teaching
this, I think it's come from the

627
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,960
context of what are you teaching
in science class or whatever

628
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,600
too, you know what I mean?
Yeah, if it's.

629
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640
High school science, I think.
And.

630
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,400
Lay it all out there.
It's funny, 'cause the school I

631
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,200
went to is like, it would be
like, here's a matching section

632
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,160
on all the bad views, the oh,
the gap theory.

633
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,400
Oh, evolution, like everything's
like, you know what I mean?

634
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,160
It's like, and it's like, OK,
now here's the real, it was

635
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,600
funny.
It was very, it was very answers

636
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,440
in Genesis, like, I think where
it was like young earth, this,

637
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,760
you know, man.
And did you?

638
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,480
Were you like, Yeah, like you
just yeah.

639
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,160
It's all, it's all I knew.
It's all as it was like middle

640
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,480
school, like 7th, 8th grade,
It's like and.

641
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,040
You wouldn't necessarily say
you're older now, but you're

642
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,560
like, more sympathetic to it,
yeah.

643
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,400
Yeah, honestly, Michael, I want
to be Old Earth because I like

644
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200
to be a naysayer in the circles
I run in.

645
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,240
Like it's fun to buck, buck up
against the crowd a little bit.

646
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,400
And I think Old Earth is like,
totally acceptable.

647
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,400
I I think when you register, I
just feel like young Earth makes

648
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,360
sense.
But I'm like, totally.

649
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,520
I'm like old Earth.
Great.

650
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,400
All the people I love are like
old Earth.

651
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,400
So it's like, you know, yeah,
that's the big one.

652
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,840
But it's, yeah, it's like we
should maybe I'll revisit it a

653
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,920
little bit, but I think it's all
changing, 'cause now it's like,

654
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,680
yeah, 'cause now Baptists are
like, aw Mills, OK, I think all

655
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,560
those things do go together
because now I think everything

656
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,360
was so strict in like the 50s
and 60s and 70s, and now there's

657
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,920
more.
Old Earth Intel AW Mill.

658
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,840
Well, it's because it's like if
you if you read Revelation

659
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,640
literally, you're gonna be pre
mill.

660
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,600
If you read Genesis literally,
it's a test of inerrancy.

661
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,760
But now it's not a test of
inerrancy.

662
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320
Like Presbyterians I think were
more apt to be old Earth and

663
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,640
Amil and Baptist were like young
earth and pre mill.

664
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,680
Because it's that's if you
believe the Bible is true.

665
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,440
Yeah, I don't.
My only push back would be to

666
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:11,960
say that it seems like, well,
when I read Genesis, yeah, we're

667
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,560
it's like we're launching
podcast Part 2.

668
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,800
When I read Genesis, it seems
like there's a logical order to

669
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,719
things and that's why I'm a day
ager.

670
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,440
I I think those things were
created in a day.

671
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,800
I just don't put the same
definition of day there as you

672
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,360
do or not you but young earthers
do.

673
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,920
So to me that seems it's very
straightforward and that it

674
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,360
makes sense of like the sun
being seen on day 4 when it was

675
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,159
probably there when God said let
there be light because all from

676
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:50,199
day 2 on, well from day one on,
you have God created the heavens

677
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,639
and the earth.
And then this view, the

678
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:59,240
perspective immediately changes
and the Earth was without form

679
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,160
and Dartmouth spawned the face
of the death and the Spirit of

680
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,840
God moved on face of the waters.
So everything becomes Earth's

681
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,720
perspective.
And so and when God said and let

682
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:12,000
there be light, I know people
make a big deal about that's the

683
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,240
first time a photon.
And I'm like, that is not the

684
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:16,840
first time a photon existed.
That's when, from Earth's

685
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,400
perspective, fusion hit in the
sun, and now there's light on

686
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,280
this planet that God is slowly
making habitable for us.

687
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,040
Yeah, we should do we should do
what I would like to do.

688
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,800
We probably have already done
this, but we should go through

689
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,840
like the different prominent
theories of old Earth that are.

690
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,320
And then we should, I would I
would also do if we haven't done

691
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,200
it is historical, look at young
earth, old Earth and just see

692
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,160
like where the ebbs and flows
have been.

693
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,720
Because I think that's
interesting because I, I've

694
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,520
talked, I was talking to people
about this and two people were

695
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,080
claiming like, and this happens
in a lot.

696
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,200
I think everyone's like
Augustine supports my view.

697
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,800
Like Augustine supports
everyone's view.

698
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,320
And you're like, how are these
competing views?

699
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,680
But Augustine supports it you.
Know, I think Augustine was an

700
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,520
old Earther.
That's what I I was talking to

701
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,560
my sister.
And I, and I was, I was saying

702
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:13,120
my understanding is that old
Earth, or at the very least a

703
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,000
non, a literal 24 hour day has
been very prevalent.

704
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,400
Maybe it's not billions of
years, but maybe it's, you know,

705
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,360
either way.
But that's like the gateway

706
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,400
where it opens up everything.
I was like, I'm pretty sure.

707
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,400
And she was like, Oh, I was
reading and but she was reading

708
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,600
a Cedarville University textbook
and they were saying like, old

709
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,640
Earth came to prominence like in
the 8, like, so it'd be

710
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,600
interesting to do a look back in
the narrative, you know?

711
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,240
Is Old Earth only came about
once, Charles Darwin wrote.

712
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:39,360
That's what, yes.
Exactly.

713
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,440
That's what origin of the
species and that's that's.

714
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,400
What she connected with.
And I was like false.

715
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,640
And my under, and I haven't
researched a lot, but I was

716
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,440
like, I think there have been a
lot of people in church history

717
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,680
like prominent names like even
like like the Augustans or the

718
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,280
Origins or the Aquinases that
may, I don't know this, but like

719
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,400
names like that, you know what I
mean?

720
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,840
Aquinas thought that you
couldn't necessarily know that

721
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,240
the universe wasn't eternal
except for the Bible said it.

722
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,800
So all that to say, I think it
would be interesting to do that

723
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,600
because I think what you would
see is you might see a spike in

724
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,240
young earth in response, some of
Darwin stuff just around that

725
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:18,280
time, like, but I, I think it's
like all wrapped around like

726
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,320
fundamentalism and inerrancy of
scripture, at least recent

727
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,680
history is why people cling to
it because it's, it kind of was

728
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,480
a test of inerrancy.
And if you didn't, you might as

729
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,160
well be a progressive, you know,
Or that was the thinking at

730
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,480
least 'cause this.
I also read that.

731
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,200
When would you know what year
the Chicago statement on an

732
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,040
errand he was written?
Was that like 7878?

733
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:38,920
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's right.

734
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,440
The year I was born.
Hey, there you go, 'cause I

735
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,280
somewhere.
Around there.

736
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:44,960
I could be wrong, I need to look
this up now.

737
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,480
I think I have heard that
initially when it was being

738
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,480
drafted, one of the things in
there they were gonna put in

739
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,720
Young Earth and people like RC
Sproull and Wayne Grudem were

740
00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:58,560
like, don't put that in there
because I can't sign it.

741
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,240
And so they kept it out to get
make it more ecumenical and

742
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,240
Protestantism.
But it's like you would leave

743
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:08,320
out some heavy hitters like like
a Wayne Grudem or like RC

744
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,480
Sproull or these people that
could not affirm that.

745
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,200
But I think that's it.
That shows.

746
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,600
My goodness.
What it was all wrapped up.

747
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,080
October 1978 I'm not going to
give you a day 'cause it doesn't

748
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,960
give you the day, but that's
that's my literal birth month.

749
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,760
Man, that's pretty crazy.
So, you know, it's good.

750
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,640
Two good things came out.
They're not small. 78 that

751
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,720
that's so anyway with with that
it's like I think that's why I

752
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,400
don't think people were
necessarily anti young earth,

753
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,000
but I think people thought that
you kind of I thought that the

754
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,720
school I went to that it's kind
of if you believe the Bible, I

755
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,480
you didn't know these other
options exist.

756
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,760
But now I think people know
these other options exist.

757
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,280
Yeah.
Just a circle back.

758
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,080
Yeah, 'cause I kind of dove
deep.

759
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,440
I probably take Genesis more
literal than I take Revelation

760
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,600
and I'm an old Earther but a pre
meal.

761
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:00,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's so.

762
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,520
Funny because I read Revelation
I'm and it's kind of like

763
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,200
Isaiah.
There was a time when I was

764
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,040
taught Revelation, I was like,
this is what the trumpets are,

765
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,640
this is what the seals are.
This is what the bowls are.

766
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,640
And you, you knew.
And I think the more you

767
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,960
remember, like maybe five years
ago, you did.

768
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,840
I did.
I teach revelation.

769
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,680
For impact, yeah.
Was it team teacher or I just

770
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:27,320
did it you?
Just said it.

771
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:28,920
Yeah, yeah.
And you had mentioned something,

772
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,360
I don't think I even understood
what you were saying then, but

773
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:33,880
because I hadn't heard it.
Yeah.

774
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,160
But this idea that it's like
cyclical.

775
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,000
Recapitulating.
Recapitulating.

776
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,640
The more I look at that, I'm
like, that probably makes.

777
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:41,760
Sense.
Yeah, when you like.

778
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,360
Honestly, when I revelation, I
see recapitulation everywhere.

779
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,120
When I read parts of the
Gospels, I seem I, it's, I, it's

780
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,600
So when I read different
scripture, it's hard for me to

781
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,320
piece together the end times.
I read Isaiah.

782
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,520
I don't know.
It's yeah, it makes it

783
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,840
challenging.
Recapitulation is just that.

784
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,880
It's the same story told from
different points of view,

785
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:10,400
different themes, but you're not
getting A-Z, you're getting A to

786
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,000
FA to FA to F, but from
different viewpoints, which

787
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,520
makes sense of the different
things that happen, kind of.

788
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,960
Over and over again.
And you're like this woman in

789
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,840
Babylon in the middle.
Like, what's going on?

790
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,000
Yeah.
So yeah, that that is great.

791
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,440
And maybe we should do, have we
done a Revelation series?

792
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,480
I don't think so.
That would be challenging.

793
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,200
But like maybe even look at the
five different sections of

794
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,800
recapitulator, however many
there are or also on the dock it

795
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,920
would be, it would be great to
do an episode on dispensational

796
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,560
pre mill.
Yeah, post historical pre mill.

797
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,880
I think I'm there.
Enough to do one on spiritual

798
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,800
warfare?
What is it really?

799
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:49,680
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

800
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,320
It has to be good too.
We got a lot of good ideas.

801
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,520
I I think this is great.
And yeah, we got some good, good

802
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,640
content that would be helpful.
And those are like some of the

803
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,600
perennial questions, I feel
like.

804
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,640
And I feel like it's, it's
really hard to make this topic

805
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,920
simple.
So we probably won't know it

806
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,680
perfectly, but it'd be great if
we could just like lay it out

807
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:07,360
there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

808
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,520
Great, We really rambled on.
So, yeah, and one last thing.

809
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,600
Yeah, I, and I'll say this in
reform to me, he's going to like

810
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,520
why say a question?
We've talked about it offline

811
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,560
since you know, he's in he's in
the family through through

812
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,720
marriage.
But if you have a question, the

813
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,600
point is if you have a question
that you'd like us to answer and

814
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,160
you'd trust us with giving you
at least our thoughts, I'd love

815
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,720
to, you know, put that in the
comments or.

816
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:34,920
That would be cool.
If you know me, you can text me

817
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,640
like reformed in D does every
now and then.

818
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,880
Nice.
But he would like us to maybe

819
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,160
revisit middle knowledge.
I know it's your favorite topic.

820
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,680
Love middle knowledge.
Yeah.

821
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,400
What's the other term that goes
with middle knowledge?

822
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,560
Well, see, I don't even want to
say it.

823
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,560
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
William and Craig has made it go

824
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,440
along with Middle Knowledge.
Mullen a or whatever his name

825
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,960
is, he made it go along with
middle knowledge.

826
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,840
But middle knowledge was not
historically always coupled with

827
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,320
Mollenism.
So that is the problem.

828
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,880
You.
It's like the this old Earth

829
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,840
thing.
You can reject Mullen ISM but

830
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,560
embrace mental knowledge.
They don't.

831
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,120
Have to go together.
Just like all the earth and I

832
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,360
see evolution don't have to go
together.

833
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,640
Yeah, yeah, man.
Good stuff.

834
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,720
Yeah, I love it.
Well, anything else you got?

835
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,040
I mean, that was a lot.
That was a lot.

836
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,680
That was a lot We should.
Peel that off and just make it

837
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:30,680
be Make it all.
Separate.

838
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,120
That's great.
Awesome.

839
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,840
Well, that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take 2.

840
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,160
Find us wherever you find
podcasts and on YouTube for

841
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,880
those who want to watch our
video cast.