Think Tank Thursday—Essence, Existence, and the Thomistic Proof for God

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The Michael Zach saga continues.
Relationship gets good and then

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it just gets.
Soured like sour Patch Kids

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sour.
But that's actually funny.

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We were talking about this girl,
but we call, we called Jordan

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our sour patch kid.
So sweet, so sour.

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Depends on the day.
So is this first and second

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cousins 'cause you were talking
about them?

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It might be more interesting
than what I'm going with, but

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this will be I was at a birthday
party yesterday.

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You.
Were not there?

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Were you were kidding sports or
something or you were doing

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stuff?
Well, my so I think I told you a

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little bit off where yeah,
they're, they're doing this

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cloud cut over and it's not
going so great.

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We may have to roll back and try
again next weekend.

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It's kind of like a what's it
called a cascade of error or

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cascade of issues that we're
going through.

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So we'll learn from this one and
maybe do it next week.

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You know, it's OK to fail, fail
forward.

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You know I'm saying for that's.
Great, as long as you learn.

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It's not good to just like just
fail for.

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But yeah, you're taking from.
It's OK to push it up.

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Yeah, and I'm not like the tech
I'm, I'm, I'm a technical guy,

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but I'm not the technical guy in
this respect.

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So I'm just kind of listening in
to them, trying to solve the

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problems.
And I see it's like, how do I

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encourage them?
You know?

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I see.
Yeah, You know, if I was like

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corporate America, I'd like send
some pizzas their way or

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something, 'cause that's what
people always do.

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But it's.
Like more out pizza party.

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Yeah, that, that wins
everything.

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Where's our Christmas bonuses?
Well, we got you a pizza party

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this year.
Speaking of pizza, at this

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birthday party had some good
pizza, you know, love it.

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But Speaking of failing, I feel
like I failed.

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And what's what?
I don't know if Jill probably

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didn't say anything, but I was
standing near Jillian and I were

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when the, you know, happy
birthday song is sang.

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And she says this wasn't
directed to me as soon as we

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started singing it.
I'm not the greatest singer.

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I think I was off key a little
bit.

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She just starts laughing and I
was like, are you laughing at

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me?
She's like, she's like, oh, no,

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no, no, everyone's off key.
But I think it was kind of

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targeted towards me.
So Jill, you can be honest.

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You're not gonna hurt my
feelings.

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It was it was rough out there.
Happy happy birthday and kids

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were ever there's a lot.
Of kids.

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It's so funny.
I will put this in the link

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below but there is this guy who
does 5 versions of Happy

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birthday 5 levels happy.
Birthday.

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And the first one is probably
what you're describing.

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She's like happy birthday.
And it's like everyone, it's

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like no one's you know.
And then it goes on to this and

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it's like this over harmonized,
you know, version.

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Oh yeah, it works its way up.
So she instantly bursted into

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laughter but said it was not
totally room.

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She said she was thinking also
of like the Hawks and Kayla.

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She was thinking of something
like that was really funny

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where, you know, they would
someone would always sing

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something or interject at the
wrong time.

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There's something funny.
It was like really a funny

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thing.
So I think she's trying to make

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me feel better.
But anyway, failing for birthday

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song.
I don't know if you've had any

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birthday, you know, mishaps.
Yeah, yeah.

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What was your question?
You know, if I had any.

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Well, I've got a lot of either.
I've got a lot of first cousins.

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Yeah, yeah.
You you you ended on a question

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that I over spoke on.
So I was trying to get.

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I was now I.
Was going to say any.

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Any birthday mishaps?
Any we talked about.

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I had a birthday birthday mishap
when I was 13.

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My house caught on fire.
But yeah, any.

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Yeah, nothing like that.
I remember, you know, my, my, my

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parents worked hard.
We weren't, we were probably

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upper lower class or lower
middle class in some like you

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don't really know that
sometimes.

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But then as I got older, you
know, they, they started being

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able to, you know, mom got
several promotions.

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So things got a little bit
easier.

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But I remember for my 18th
birthday, like, you know, you

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can just kind of think of like
things you would get for your

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18th birthday.
I don't know what what would be

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some things you would think of?
Like, in a perfect world, it'd

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be cool to get, like, a car is
probably too big, but, you know,

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it's like you're 1618.
That's like a big day.

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I'm trying to think of other big
things.

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Yeah.
Luggage is what I got.

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Hey, hey, a good a good pair, a
good a good luggage thing is

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hard to come by.
Yeah, and it did serve me well.

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So it was like one of those good
practical gifts, But I opened

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it.
I was like luggage on my 18th

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birthday.
Like, by the way, leave the

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house.
We want you to.

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You're on your own.
But it did serve me well.

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But that Jill still makes fun of
me because she was there and she

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was like, you can see the look
on my face, like, yeah.

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Presents are such a tricky thing
when expectations are.

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It's always funny.
I was on this joke with my

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sister, like on Christmas one
time.

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She got like a sweater, but I
don't know that well, I think

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she liked the sweater, but we
were like four or five gifts in

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and she was like, oh, I actually
like this or something.

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She's like actually in there
like Tori, does that mean you

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you weren't a priest of your
other gifts?

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But it's always, it's always,
it's always, you know, tough,

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especially when it's like a like
it's, it's like you get one or

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two gifts and it's like, even if
it's luggage and it was like a

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lot of money or something, it's
like, oh, it's like, oh, you

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know, it's, it's a tough thing.
And I don't know what I

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expected.
I did have a car.

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OK, Yes, you're.
Good.

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I had what people called the
lanyard.

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It was a it was an old, it was a
1988 year, but Oldsmobile Delta

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98, which was like the top of
the line, had the Gray liner

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like.
Man.

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Cassette player, electric seats,
electric windows like it was it

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was tricked out for 1980.
Eight.

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Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

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And this was or not maybe, yeah,
88, maybe it was 84.

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It was old, but yeah, so.
And I had a pretty nice stereo

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that went to college with me.
So I don't know what I was

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expecting.
I was just not expecting

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luggage.
That's.

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Great.
Did you do the old you have like

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the old cassette player with the
little connection to for?

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Absolutely.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, that's great for your CD
player.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's classic that that came in

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big time before, like CD players
were just like ubiquitous.

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Same thing as my first.
My first cars I had were older

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cars, which were great.
But it's like man.

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And now today it's like what's
ACD?

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It's it's just you.
Know it is crazy thinking about

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CDs, but they exist, you know?
They do exist.

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And you kind of know what the
nature of ACD is?

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Yeah, You know what it is?
It's it's not the same as an 8

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track.
They're different.

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It's it's not the That's right,
That's right.

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Yeah.
Yeah, that's great.

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Things like like the floppy
disk.

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We don't do a lot of floppy disk
stuff now, but it survives

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because it's like the save
symbol, like it just survives.

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Yeah, there's some funny thing
about, you know, someone had a

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floppy disk like you.
You made the symbol you.

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Know no this is.
This is what it was from.

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Boy, and those things cannot
hold a lot of memory.

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I mean, I remember it's 1.44
megabytes.

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Wow. 1.44 megabytes And I
remember in, you know, thinking

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that this is a lot of because
you the old cause by the time we

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were around what we called a
floppy disk, you know, there was

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the five and a quarter that was
actually floppy and then there

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was the, you know, the hard, you
know, thing that had the little

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slidy things.
It wasn't as floppy, but I think

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the five and a quarter was like
512 kilobytes maybe.

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So, you know, when you get the
the, you know, 1.44 megabytes,

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you're like.
Game changer.

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Yeah, 'cause even a little bit
later than that maybe is like

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when, when MP3 players first
started coming out, a lot of

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them were like 400 kilobytes or
something, and you could like

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store like 40 something, maybe
100.

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It's like there's a finite
number of songs that was on that

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thing.
Yeah, they weren't the highest

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quality.
I remember having like down,

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down qualities that could fit
more on there.

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Yeah, you could.
Put more on there.

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Great.
And then you got limewired.

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Your computer crashed because
we're like, you're downloading,

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dude.
I'll tell you we're all over the

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place.
We can wrap up this dancer.

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But man, when you first could
like, burn CDs, that was the

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wild, Wild West, man, You could
do anything.

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I remember my sisters having a
cassette player with a radio in

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it and waiting for a song to
come on and then hit and record.

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And then you got to wait there.
And like, if the DJ talked over

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it, you were upset.
Like you don't like stop

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talking.
Just let the music play.

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And then you would like, stop
recording and you would make,

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you know, a, a tape.
And then Napster came out, and

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while it was still questionably
legal, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You could make what?
You could make whatever fave CD

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you wanted.
To make anything you wanted.

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Game changer.
So we started with birthdays,

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ended with Napster, and if you
thought it couldn't get any

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better than this, it can.
We're going to talk about

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Aquinas argument for God's
existence.

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So get hyped.
Let's take it to the next level.

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
All right, so this is our second

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installment and kind of our
crowded hit every month.

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It may be a little longer than a
month sometimes, a little

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shorter than a month sometimes,
but installment on apologetics

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and apologetics arguments.
Nice last one.

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Hopefully everyone remembers
Cosmological Argument.

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Do we have a nice I know we
didn't land on a neat name for

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like something Thursday.
What's AT word we were talking

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about it was.
Like anyway Theology Thursday.

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00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:22,680
Or theology Thursday is there is
there apologetic adjacent word

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that starts with T?
Like hmm.

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Anyway, something something
something to ponder.

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Yeah, maybe ChatGPT can help
that.

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That's.
That's a good idea.

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Yeah, yeah.
But he, he's good at those kind

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of things.
But I, you know, so I thought we

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would kind of give another
somewhat akin to the

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cosmological argument, but this
one is more from a scholastic is

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the word I'm looking for
scholastic point of view.

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So, you know, I don't want to
give everyone the whole history,

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00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:03,160
but, you know, you have these
huge philosophers, Plato,

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00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:11,320
Socrates and Aristotle, and then
actually let me give them an

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order.
Socrates, Plato, Aristotle.

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00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:13,440
Yeah.
That's good.

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I always make stuff.
I don't know the orders as well

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as I should.
That's good.

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00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,960
Yeah.
So Socrates is first his student

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was Plato, and then Aristotle
was his student.

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And then some of Aristotle's,
you know, their writing was

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lost, you know, you know,
through the the dark ages.

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00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,840
And then it was rediscovered,
translated.

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00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,880
And he, Aristotle, became so
ubiquitous with the way of

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Western thinking that people
would just refer to him as the

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philosopher.
That's it.

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He was just so the.
Philosopher said this and so you

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see his huge impact and Thomas
Aquinas takes a lot of what he

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00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,200
writes because Aristotle had a
lot of good things to say.

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You know, we threw out the.
The problem is let me interrupt

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my story.
We.

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He had a bad physics, right?
Yeah, the earth is the center,

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you know, and we threw out the
physics.

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Then we also threw out the
metaphysics.

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That was the bad thing.
We threw the baby out with the

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bathwater.
But Thomas Aquinas, you know,

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took what he had right in the
philosophy and the metaphysics,

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but tweaked it so that, you
know, he was believed in lots of

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different gods.
And so like, OK, he's saying

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00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,480
some right things, but let's
let's, oh, yeah, let's just

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tweak it to make it right so
that it is in line with reality.

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00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,000
And so this really falls out of
one of those things.

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00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,520
And I don't think we talk a lot
about essence.

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00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,720
I think this is gonna be.
Great, 'cause I, I personally am

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00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,160
like, man, what is what's
essence, what's substance like I

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00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,920
don't understand, like what
we're trying to say and I don't

246
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,640
know if I'll ever be like
satisfied totally.

247
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,840
But I think this is good and you
know it.

248
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,680
It's some of that that's classic
period.

249
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:51,480
A lot of rigor with like the
philosophy.

250
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:52,720
It's like really well done
really.

251
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,880
It's not just like we're
throwing stuff at the wall.

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00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,640
Not that we have to call it,
call it this, but maybe at least

253
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,480
for a couple times this.
This is a Tomas Thursday.

254
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,080
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

255
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,360
Anyway, carry on.
And so there's an argument for

256
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,480
God's existence just from the
fact that you exist, Zach, or

257
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,960
this microphone exists.
And really it has to do with

258
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,840
this essence existence
distinction.

259
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,000
So you mentioned this word
substance.

260
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A substance would be something
that qualities could adhere in.

261
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:31,800
So you are a substance.
Water is a substance.

262
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,200
Can you abuse?
Substances, yeah, you can abuse

263
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,960
substances.
You have substance abuse.

264
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,360
And so then like, you know, when
we were talking maybe 3 or 4 or

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00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,960
516 podcasts back, we talked
about hylomorphic dualism versus

266
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,480
who could forget Cartesian
dualism.

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00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,320
You know, really that's a debate
about if the human is two

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00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,440
different substances that kind
of interact some way or are you

269
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,480
one substance that is both
physical and non physical?

270
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,680
So those are the substance
words.

271
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:05,840
But really we could leave
substance alone here because

272
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,760
we're going to be talking about
different substances, but we're

273
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,480
going to be talking about the
essences and the existence of

274
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,120
those substance.
And I think when we say essence,

275
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you kind of know like we're
familiar with that term.

276
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:22,280
Maybe nature or form might be
another word that you might be.

277
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,520
They all kind of mean the same
thing, and it just really

278
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,560
defines what something is.
Yeah.

279
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,440
And I don't know why this is,
but trees are always what

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00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,120
philosophers immediately turn
to.

281
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,080
Trees.
Yeah, I like it.

282
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,080
But you know what a tree is?
Yeah, yeah.

283
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,720
If I held a rose to you and I
was like, this is a tree.

284
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,920
I would slap that thing on your
hand saying no thank you Sir,

285
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:43,640
not a.
Tree.

286
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,640
And then if I said why, you
might shrug a little bit to go

287
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,520
tell me why it's not a tree.
Exactly.

288
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:49,680
You just know.
You know, like, well, it's

289
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,760
shorter.
There are some short trees,

290
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,280
yeah.
It's, you know, so you might

291
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,920
struggle and but you kind of
internally know it's not a tree.

292
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,640
And then you might, it might
take you a while to kind of like

293
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,360
define what makes a tree a tree
and what makes a rose a rose.

294
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,840
I will say this is probably not
what you're going after either,

295
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,640
but it's like those people that
are like if someone came up to

296
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,120
me, this is this is way off
topic, but if they're like, Hey,

297
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,640
you like what do you think about
this tomato?

298
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:18,800
But it's a fruit.
I don't know.

299
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,360
I'm trying to think of something
where it's like, you know, those

300
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:21,920
people that they're just like,
it's like, well.

301
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,440
Tomatoes.
Fruit, not a vegetable.

302
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,280
Exactly.
Yeah, where like looks like a

303
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,040
vegetable.
It's like people might commonly

304
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:28,280
associate with vegetable.
It's a fruit.

305
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:34,480
Yeah, that's because they're
they're mixing up culinary words

306
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,560
and botany words.
Oh, is it?

307
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,040
From a culinary perspective, it
is a vegetable because it is.

308
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,440
All day long, it's a vegetable.
Oh I never knew this.

309
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,720
OK gotcha.
I was just associated as a

310
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:43,680
fruit.
That's what I was taught.

311
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,000
OK, there is no, there is no
botanical definition of a

312
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,280
vegetable.
A vegetable can be a fruit, a

313
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,680
leaf, a stalk, a root.
Yeah.

314
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,080
So at its essence.
Biologically, it's a fruit.

315
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,440
It's a OK, OK.
Guess, but culinarily we use it

316
00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,280
as a vegetable.
OK.

317
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,560
So like your essence, depending
on what perspective you're

318
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,560
looking at, could be slightly
different or something like

319
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:05,480
that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

320
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,120
So we could define, yeah, you
could define, you know, what is

321
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,040
the essence of a fruit.
And if your, if your viewpoint

322
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:12,960
is culinary, you might say
something that's sweet.

323
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,680
Or if you're, you know, what is
a vegetable, then you know, you

324
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,920
might also have different ideas
what that is.

325
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,960
So I one thing I like to when
we're talking about essence is a

326
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:26,720
Unicorn.
Do you know what a Unicorn is?

327
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,720
I I do yes.
Could you describe it for our

328
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,360
audience?
It's got one horn coming out

329
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,800
looks like a horse.
What's there was a very famous

330
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,080
there's like a girls Rosa
Franklin Is this something like

331
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,640
like girls like in elementary
school, like girls like had this

332
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,960
thing like that.
All their folders, all their

333
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,800
pens would be like something,
and a lot of those would be

334
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,200
unicorns.
But it was like some sort of

335
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:54,280
like phrase.
But I'm.

336
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,280
Not familiar with them, but you
could, yeah.

337
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,480
I showed you a picture that
looked like a Baron and said

338
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,160
this Unicorn.
Oh yeah, I would say I don't

339
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,800
think so, yeah.
Which is odd 'cause it leads us

340
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,920
into this next idea of
existence.

341
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,680
So we talked about what the, we
talked about essence, you know,

342
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,360
the characteristics, what
defines a thing to be a thing,

343
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,040
but there's also existence and
that Unicorn that we talked

344
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,400
about it, we, we could describe
its essence, but it has never

345
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,240
existed.
It's never had the quality of

346
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,240
existing.
Yeah, yeah.

347
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,400
Or Stegosaurus T Rex.
Unicorns in the Bible, right?

348
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,120
Yeah.
Is that like King James Version

349
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:30,840
or something?
Right.

350
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,600
Yeah.
That's always funny.

351
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:34,680
One.
Yeah.

352
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,240
Stegosaurus.
You would know what?

353
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:37,640
Well, maybe you know what is?
You know what?

354
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:38,360
Stegosaurus.
Is.

355
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,160
How dare you?
How dare you?

356
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:41,520
Yeah, it's a dinosaur.
Yeah, yeah.

357
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,160
But I mean, do you know?
I I could, if someone showed me

358
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,720
a picture of it, I could get
like with a tail with like the,

359
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,640
you know, things, the rocky tail
or whatever.

360
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,520
Differentiated Ankylosaurus.
Tricerosaurus.

361
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:54,720
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I bet I could.

362
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,880
Yeah, OK.
And so then we're we're, we are

363
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,120
talking about their essences,
but those things have not

364
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,240
existed for a long time.
So we're kind of going through

365
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,079
this to help people get into
these, their mind, this category

366
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,280
of existence and essence.
One of my professors used to

367
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,400
say, you know, if you've ever
had a balloon, you know, most of

368
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,839
our balloons are kind of just
straight.

369
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,440
But there are some balloons that
have like twists in them.

370
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,119
And so the balloon with the
twist kind of defines the

371
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,240
essence, but it doesn't really
exist until you blow air into

372
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,800
it.
So you can kind of differentiate

373
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,640
existence itself, like the act
of existing that gets paired up

374
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,040
with an essence.
OK, so I like that.

375
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,680
Everything good so far.
Yeah, pretty pretty good I

376
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,440
think.
I think I at least could define

377
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:44,560
essence and existence.
So finite beings there's for all

378
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,000
of finite beings, we have a
distinction between our essence

379
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,640
and our existence.
So whether it's a horse, a tree,

380
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,600
a person, we all have a specific
nature of what it is, but our

381
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,480
existence is not part of that
nature.

382
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,880
And what we mean by that is that
those things could have not

383
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,320
existed.
You could not you.

384
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:05,920
It's possible that you never
existed.

385
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,400
Oh, gotcha.
You don't exist out.

386
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,440
Of necessity, it's a simulation
thing.

387
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,240
No, I'm, I'm just.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

388
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:13,880
Yeah.
And let's take something that

389
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,320
like, you know, like a horse
that doesn't have an eternal

390
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,400
soul, that thing will stop
existing at some point in time.

391
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,000
Right came in.
Existence came out of existence,

392
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,560
so we can say we can clearly see
its essence and existence are

393
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,400
not the same thing.
Gotcha.

394
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so if it's is, if it's

395
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,840
essence is not to exist, like if
it's not part of its nature to

396
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,120
exist.
Then.

397
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,960
It has to get its existence from
someplace else.

398
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:38,800
Gotcha.
Yeah.

399
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,920
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think so, yeah.

400
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,320
So then the distinction is
really critical because we need

401
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,960
an explanation for the fact that
something exists rather than

402
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,000
nothing at all, right?
OK, Yeah.

403
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,040
'Cause I exist, I have my
essence, but it's clearly not my

404
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,400
essence to exist.
It's not part of my nature to

405
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,760
exist 'cause it was part of my
nature to exist, I'd exist

406
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,920
necessarily.
Yeah, and then if you were

407
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,840
talking about a Unicorn, right,
it doesn't exist, you know what

408
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:07,440
I'm saying?
Yeah.

409
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:08,240
Yeah.
So yeah, I got you.

410
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right, so here's where the

411
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,440
argument comes in.
He'll argue that everything in

412
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,880
the world is contingent, meaning
its essence does not necessitate

413
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,120
its existence.
This leads to some observation.

414
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,080
So things exist, but do not have
to exist.

415
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,520
We kind of already covered this.
They could fail to exist at some

416
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,760
point in time.
They could stop existing.

417
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,160
Some examples, You didn't exist
200 years ago, yet you exist

418
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,560
now.
Same is true for stars, planets,

419
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,560
civilizations, even species.
Yeah, they come into existence,

420
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560
they go out of existence.
Things have potential.

421
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,000
You.
Think I have potential?

422
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,280
Oh man, you got some potential
that that.

423
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,720
Yeah, that's correct.
Often times people use that in a

424
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,800
good way and it is good for
contingent beings, but God has

425
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,960
no potential.
That's right, because we have

426
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,120
potential he could change.
That's actually not.

427
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,760
That's a scary that you don't
want him to change what he said,

428
00:19:58,760 --> 00:19:59,240
Yeah.
Right.

429
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,240
Because if you had potential,
either he could get worse than

430
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,920
what he is, or he's not as good
as he could be and he could get

431
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,440
better, you know?
And he's not the greatest.

432
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,240
Yeah, because and our gods
pretty great.

433
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,400
So there's not, yeah, not a good
direction to go if you have

434
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:11,600
potential to change that's.
Right.

435
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,560
But contingent things like us,
we have potential.

436
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,560
That means we are subject to
change.

437
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,160
A tree grows from a seed, lives
for a few centuries, maybe

438
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,800
eventually decays, civilizations
rises of fall.

439
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,000
This means their existence is
not necessary, they're dependent

440
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,680
on something.
Else something else would be

441
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,080
more steadfast.
I gotcha.

442
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:33,600
Yeah.
So hopefully maybe you can see

443
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,000
where this argument's going.
Things must have an explanation

444
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,880
for their existence.
Even if there were an infinite

445
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,200
regressive contingent causes.
So cosmological argument that we

446
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,560
talked about, we spend a lot of
time showing that the past

447
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,600
cannot go backwards forever.
There has to be a beginning for

448
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,120
contingent things, right?
The universe had to come into

449
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:55,400
existence.
We talked about how you know

450
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,160
physically, scientifically, that
the past cannot be backwards,

451
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,920
infinite.
But we could even grant that to

452
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,200
the skeptic.
We could say, for the sake of

453
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,080
argument, we'll grant to you
that even if the universe was

454
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,960
infinitely eternal in the past,
it would still just be a long

455
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,200
chain of dominoes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

456
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,960
Of contingent things and even
that thing would have to have at

457
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,760
some point explanation for its
existence, right, right.

458
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:26,040
And this kind of is borrowing a
little bit from Leibniz's

459
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,840
cosmological argument, but.
So, yeah, yeah.

460
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,320
So things you know.
Imagine chain of dominoes

461
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,320
following it indefinitely.
The series itself still needs an

462
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,560
explanation.
So even if the universe were

463
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,800
eternal, it would still need a
reason why exist now rather than

464
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,920
not existing.
So we must receive our existence

465
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,720
from somewhere.
Since things don't have the

466
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,720
reasons for their own existence
and their essence, their

467
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,680
existence must be received from
something else.

468
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,440
So the bottom line is, there
must be something that exists

469
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,960
whose essence is existence
itself.

470
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,360
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It's like a similar

471
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,120
argumentation.
I mean, it's different, but it's

472
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,640
like coming from the same point
that there's just got to be

473
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,520
something outside of all these
things that ebb and flow, and

474
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,200
the something is something that
most likely does not.

475
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,000
It can't be ebb and flowy as
well.

476
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,960
Yep.
So if everything were

477
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,520
contingent, then there would be
nothing that exists.

478
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,680
But since we do have something
exists, it means that something

479
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,520
there has to be something that
exists.

480
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,520
It's not contingent.
Everything were contingent, but

481
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,920
nothing would exist.
That's what I'm saying.

482
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:41,200
Yeah.
Yeah.

483
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,880
So it's like, and stuff exists,
right?

484
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:44,800
Like logically, yeah.
Yeah.

485
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,360
Gotcha.
Yeah.

486
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:47,760
So that means there has to be
something that's not contingent,

487
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,520
something that's necessary.
Parmenides was another Greek

488
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,600
philosopher, and he had this to
say.

489
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,280
It kind of goes along with what
Aquinas would say in in

490
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,800
Aristotle, being itself cannot
be created or destroyed, being

491
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,480
itself, right?
Essences can rise and fall, but

492
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,680
existence itself, like, you
know, trying to think separating

493
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,200
that balloon, the the shape of
the balloon from the air.

494
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,240
And if the air is existence,
like if that shape goes out of

495
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,400
existence, that air still goes
someplace else, right?

496
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,040
I.
Got.

497
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,200
That it cannot be created
destroyed.

498
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,240
In order to create being,
something must have had to 1st

499
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,560
exist.
In order to destroy being

500
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,200
something, something is going to
continue to exist.

501
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,120
Like whatever destroyed the
being, you know would have to

502
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:30,720
exist and then it would have
being.

503
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,000
And so he comes to this absolute
nothing list can produce

504
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,960
nothing.
And it has this famous phrase ex

505
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,160
nihilo nihil feet.
Nice.

506
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,720
Yeah.
And most most people would know

507
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,960
ex nihilo.
You might not know the rest of

508
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,200
it, but you're like, you should
know that.

509
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,000
One, yeah.
So ex nihilo means out of

510
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,240
nothing.
So we say God created the cosmos

511
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,200
ex nihilo out of nothing.
We mean it had no material,

512
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,120
'cause right?
But God was still there, He

513
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,720
existed, right?
And so he's saying out of

514
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,200
nothing, nothing comes for The
Sound of Music, folks.

515
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,880
Yeah, this I know.
This isn't you, so just bear

516
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,800
with me.
Yeah, I don't know anything

517
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,920
about it.
I just saw where I went to

518
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,120
undergrad is doing a Sound of
Music production, so I saw some

519
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,600
a lot of Nazis running around.
So apparently it's World War Two

520
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,640
thing I'm learning.
There are, there are.

521
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,320
It is that is crazy.
Like you have to have Nazi

522
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,280
uniforms to put some of these,
yeah.

523
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,080
These.
Things on Yeah.

524
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,400
It's like, why do you have all
these Nazi flags?

525
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,440
Well, because we're putting on
Sound of Music.

526
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,760
Big Julie Andrews fan.
We just.

527
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,320
That's what, yeah.
But there's a song there where

528
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,400
she sings Nothing comes from
nothing.

529
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,080
Nothing ever could.
So yeah.

530
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:39,440
So she's.
Tracking.

531
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,960
Yeah, so she's tracking
Parmenides, you know what I'm

532
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,400
saying?
That's great.

533
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,440
All right.
So if that is the case, then we

534
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,480
have to have at least one
necessary being whose existence

535
00:24:54,480 --> 00:25:01,000
not depending on anything else
right now you might say, well,

536
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,120
if there's multiple things that
whose essence is it is to exist.

537
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But there can't be logical,

538
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,600
you're saying, because if so,
you, we can distinguish between

539
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,320
me and you a rose and a tree
because of our different

540
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,400
essences.
But if my essence is existence

541
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,480
itself and your essence is
existence itself, then we would

542
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,840
be identical, there'd be nothing
to distinguish us.

543
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,080
So that's how we can say that.
That's how we can say there's

544
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,800
really only one God, because of
the indistinguishable nature,

545
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,160
indiscernible nature of
identicals so.

546
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,040
This idea of this dualism where
there's like an eternal good

547
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,080
force, an eternal bad force,
not, not not vibing with.

548
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,240
That it doesn't work and this is
probably, you know, first year

549
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,000
masters level of not back in the
day, you know, back in the cars

550
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,000
day this would have been maybe
junior high, but today it's

551
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,000
masters level.
People just knew so much, so

552
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:02,960
much more.
It's crazy.

553
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,680
But yeah, the what was the
question?

554
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,120
Sorry I got.
Distracted dualism, eternal

555
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:12,120
good, eternal bad being, or you
know, Whether it's a being or

556
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:14,640
not, you know.
So we went through pains to show

557
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,120
that existence, oneness, I think
goodness.

558
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,320
And maybe those are the three.
Maybe there's a fourth one.

559
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,160
All in one sense are the same
thing.

560
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,600
Say that.
Say it one more time.

561
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,840
Existence, existence, goodness
and the oneness.

562
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,120
OK, OK, OK.
Yeah, yeah.

563
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:36,120
And how a being whose existence,
whose essence is existence

564
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:39,880
itself, has no other properties.
That is a single property.

565
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,960
And it it is good.
And so it is one and it is

566
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,320
existence.
That's a.

567
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,120
If you're interested in that,
you can go find more.

568
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:53,200
It's probably too much for this
podcast to break out those

569
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,400
details.
That's good.

570
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,680
Yeah, I like it.
All right, so that being must be

571
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,200
pure existence itself, and so on
#4 the conclusion God is a

572
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:08,160
subsistent being itself.
So he's pure actuality, no

573
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,360
potentiality.
He cannot not exist.

574
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,200
And so some of the implications
of this.

575
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,760
God is uncaused because if he
were caused then he would be

576
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,840
necessary.
God is eternal.

577
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,840
If he ceased to exist he would
not be necessary.

578
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,720
God isn't changing.
If he could change he would have

579
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,480
potentiality rather than pure
actuality.

580
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,600
God is simple, not composite,
because if you were composed

581
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,440
parts he would depend on
something up prior to himself.

582
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,360
God is the explanation of
existence itself.

583
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:42,680
Without him nothing could exist.
So the the Latin is God is ipsum

584
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,120
essay subsistence, or he is
existence itself.

585
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:50,200
His essence is existence itself.
No, I like that When I think of

586
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,760
Aquinas Thomas thinking, the
first thing that comes into my

587
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,400
mind is God is simple.
That's like the one thing that I

588
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,200
just automatically associate for
whatever reason.

589
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,160
I think it's been, people have
talked about it in the last few

590
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,440
years a little bit more and I
think I think that's good at

591
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,080
all, you know, logically comes
out and I like we've got a

592
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,360
couple of different arguments
that say like not the same

593
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,080
thing, but it points in the same
direction in a different way,

594
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:12,760
you know?
Yeah.

595
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,160
So if we were to talk about the
cosmological argument, it would

596
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,680
be like coming across something
and going, why did, why did this

597
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,760
thing exist?
Like how did this thing come

598
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,320
into existence, right?
OK.

599
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:27,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This argument is like you're

600
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,600
hearing music and you're like,
what is making that music?

601
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,360
Because I not only did I come
into existence, not only did the

602
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,200
universe come into existence,
but it continues to exist.

603
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,640
So the fact that we still exist
and it's not in our essence

604
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,200
exist, it means that we are God
is lending his essence, his

605
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,720
existence, his essence to exist
to us right now.

606
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,200
So there are verses that talk
about, you know, he holds

607
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,520
everything together.
All things are summed up in Him.

608
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,160
You know, all those ideas are
true from a philosophical

609
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,000
standpoint as well.
And that's great.

610
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,320
I think apologetic some of this
philosophy, it's always been

611
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,720
challenging for me where it's
not, I don't think I think it is

612
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,960
complicated.
It's really not that it it on

613
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,080
one level it's very complicated.
You have to do a little bit of

614
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,920
time and another way it's kind
of like same.

615
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,000
It's kind of a similar thing.
I feel like with like economics,

616
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,520
a lot of it is like common sense
with terms.

617
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,000
If you're gonna like just learn
the terms and definitions, then

618
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,600
it makes a lot more sense.
But when you're throwing out

619
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,960
terms and you don't know, you
haven't been trained in like a

620
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,640
definition, it can't seem
overwhelming.

621
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,480
But it's like just, you know,
some of these things like

622
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,080
essence existence, just know
what they mean and then you can

623
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,440
talk with them a little bit more
freely and it's not as

624
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,560
overwhelming.
Yeah, that's a good, good point.

625
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,720
I remember being 17, having some
doubts about God's existence, my

626
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,080
salvation and stuff.
And I remember thinking, there's

627
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,640
the the Earth is here.
How did it get here?

628
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,480
There needs to be an explanation
for it.

629
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,000
OK.
And really philosophy is just

630
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,080
come alongside that and go,
that's a good idea.

631
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,640
Let's make that more bulletproof
against attacks.

632
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,840
Let's use some fancy words to to
help round it out so that when

633
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,240
people try to naysay it, you
know, well, no, I formulated my

634
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,120
argument so they can withstand
what you're saying.

635
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,440
And that's good because all
these are really, I think they

636
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,080
are grounded in some other than
maybe the ontological argument.

637
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,680
It's all grounded in, you know,
some common sense ideas.

638
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,040
And so this idea that I don't
exist on myself by myself, there

639
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,800
has to be something that exists
in and of itself.

640
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,640
That's a pretty common sense
notion.

641
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,040
That's really what this argument
is saying.

642
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,280
That is great.
I'm looking forward to some

643
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,120
more, you know, whether it's
Tomas Thursday or different

644
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,440
apologetic.
I know, I know Tomism is

645
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,480
probably on your mind just
because that was like integral

646
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,480
in the school you went to.
And we're really where a lot of

647
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,040
this, you know, came from any
ways, like like you're saying

648
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,960
Aristotle, Plato and then this
Renaissance.

649
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,800
And then so a lot of it he kind
of like set the stage where all

650
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,200
people borrow from this stuff
anyway.

651
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,880
Who's like the other?
I guess you would just be more,

652
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,280
you know, postmodern and if
you're like rejecting Aquinas

653
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:09,720
stuff or I could you know what I
mean or like.

654
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,920
What's the not postmodern?
You'd be more Kantian.

655
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:13,960
OK.
Oh, gotcha.

656
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,560
Yeah.
Yeah.

657
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,960
So you'd be Kantian.
So like William Lane Craig is

658
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,040
probably a a, you know, Kantian
compared to that that, you know,

659
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,880
a what's the guy that founded
SES?

660
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,720
Oh, Gersh.
Scott Geisler.

661
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:27,000
No.
OK.

662
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gotcha.

663
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,680
I thought I could help you out
on your own model.

664
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,040
I'm just kidding.
Awesome.

665
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,200
Well, yeah, Is there, can you
tease out any other arguments,

666
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,160
maybe on a future episode or we
don't know?

667
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,120
Yeah.
Oh, I mean, you're thinking.

668
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840
Would be like good.
If we wanted, Aquinas has some

669
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:49,600
other ones like from Motion, and
we had to memorize them back in

670
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,040
the day.
This one I gave you, I think is

671
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,200
the best one.
And then so there's theological

672
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,080
from the basically argument from
design.

673
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,760
There's a moral argument.
There is the ontological

674
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,240
argument.
Those probably are your biggest

675
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:11,040
arguments for God's existence.
The moral argument falls into

676
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:18,320
this family of arguments that
even our presuppositionalists

677
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,560
will buy into this family of
arguments.

678
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,120
Yeah.
So it's it's it's a good

679
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,000
argument.
So you could take the same

680
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,520
argument we give for the moral
argument and you can replace it

681
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,280
with knowledge, you can replace
it with beauty, you know,

682
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,960
mathematics.
So, you know, we'll, we'll go

683
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,200
over that when we get there, you
know.

684
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,360
Because I feel like people that
are critical of, and I'm not the

685
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,640
expert in this space, like
Tomism, maybe like some

686
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,440
presuppers who are like, you
know, all this, they're just

687
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,600
like what I hear them saying are
things like, we're just going to

688
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,120
use what Aristotle?
Like, why are we, Why are we

689
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,720
starting with Aristotle?
It's like, well, some of the

690
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,320
things that if you're saying if
things are true or not true,

691
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,080
they're true or not true.
But I think.

692
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,440
All truth is God's truth.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

693
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,600
You hear some of that sometimes,
and I can't remember other And

694
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,000
then everyone's like, well,
Aquinas was so Catholic.

695
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,560
You hear that sometimes, too.
Like nothing.

696
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,360
You have to embrace everything.
Aquinas says.

697
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,400
You can, you know, you know,
pick the good parts, you know

698
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,120
if.
If I'm honest and transparent

699
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,520
with you, I didn't read every
single book that I was assigned.

700
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:21,880
OK.
Wow.

701
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,680
Yeah, yeah.
However, there is one book that

702
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,440
I read all of On Evil or De Malo
by Thomas Aquinas.

703
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:38,000
To me it is a masterpiece of
talking about what evil is.

704
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,280
And and you said he's Catholic.
Like think about a Catholic who

705
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:49,640
cannot controvert anything that
has been said in the creeds or

706
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,120
Pope has said ex Catherida or
you know some cardinal who is

707
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,240
very influential said because
that's your life on the line,

708
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,280
but you're still dedicated to
the truth.

709
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,520
If you have that vision and then
you read on evil, you'll go,

710
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,280
wow, this guy was why is as a
dove?

711
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,760
Why is the serpent innocent as a
dove?

712
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,080
Because he would say, you've
heard it was said.

713
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,719
And sometimes he'll talk about
Aristotle or you know, you've

714
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,600
heard it said and he'll say, and
this is true in this respect.

715
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,120
Like there's, there's a way of
thinking about this that's true.

716
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:24,840
And here's another way that it's
true.

717
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,400
And here's another way true.
And he'll give you all these

718
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,040
different things he'll say, and
here's the conclusion to that.

719
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,000
And he does this over and over
and over again.

720
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,880
And so you do get some Catholic
stuff in there.

721
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,199
Like you might see some venial
or mortal sins be mentioned in

722
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,159
there, but most of the time he's
just dealing with kind of your

723
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,000
standard stuff.
And everyone's a product of

724
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,600
their own environment too, where
it's like, man, it's just

725
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,480
today's world is not that word
where it's like OK to say

726
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,000
whatever, or it's like, there's
800 different denominations.

727
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,480
It's like a different world and
you know, you look at Irenaeus

728
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,480
Norwich and it's like you can
find, you can find find some bad

729
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,600
stuff where you can look at, you
know, even Agustin and be like,

730
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,200
why would you say this?
You know so.

731
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Even John Piper.
What?

732
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,960
Hey, hey, you bite your tongue.
Yeah.

733
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,200
So I think some of that's like
uncharitable.

734
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,000
It's easy to look back and I
don't and I just I've never read

735
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,160
a lot of Aquinas to make that.
So when people talk, I never

736
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,440
know how much like, you know,
claims and I, I think it's more

737
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,680
of like turf wars, like my way's
better than their way.

738
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,360
So I'm gonna try to undermine
some of this stuff.

739
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,840
But yeah, he's The Who.
Who else was around Aquinas's

740
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,320
time?
I mean, I feel like that's like,

741
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,640
that's the guy.
Yeah, man, you're trying to.

742
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,520
Sorry.
Yeah, I was trying.

743
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,600
I was trying to think of people
around.

744
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,320
Not that I don't know, I mean.
The I mean, I could pull out my

745
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:47,280
my medieval philosophers there.
There were some good Islamic

746
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,680
medieval philosophers, I mean.
'Cause they had kind of a this

747
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:51,840
is where.
We're going to each the name for

748
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,840
Kalam cosmological argument.
There's a guy who's whose name

749
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,480
starts with an A.
That's the most I can remember

750
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:03,640
from from the Islam who was a
doctor and you know, he was

751
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,400
doing a lot of good things.
Unfortunately, you know, there

752
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,560
was this revolution where they,
that they kind of burned all

753
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,160
that stuff and they went back to
the arcade, the Dark Angels.

754
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,880
They burned all of the, the
stuff in Babylon, I believe.

755
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,360
And they kind of just set them
backwards 'cause they were, they

756
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,720
were doing some pretty, you
know, good stuff, some good

757
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:24,640
thinkers despite their, their
false religious ideas.

758
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,480
But then that they were overcame
by that, overcome by that.

759
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,480
Well, I think, I think this is
great.

760
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,600
We'll kind of keep maybe running
through these once a month or

761
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,760
something, but I love it.
Any any parting words on

762
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:42,880
apologetics?
Yeah, apologetics are they're

763
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,720
good for the people who are are
running a mouse, you know,

764
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,080
saying bad things, you know.
Well, that's not actually true.

765
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:50,720
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.

766
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,000
Because of this and this, you
kind of stop the detractors.

767
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,920
They're good for seekers.
And then I was talking to a

768
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,800
gentleman at our church today
who said he's dealing with

769
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,400
doubts.
Well, apologetics can be good

770
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,000
for, you know, your biggest
critic sometime is yourself.

771
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,360
You know, you have your own
doubts and you think about, you

772
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,760
know, so that.
That's what I like about

773
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,280
apologetics, Like you should
apply as long as you're applying

774
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,360
the same rigor of testing to
everything.

775
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,600
Test everything.
You know what I'm saying?

776
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,640
I think the problem is when
people are really harsh with

777
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,160
Christianity and then they don't
apply that to other things.

778
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,800
But it's like, do do that.
See what?

779
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,040
See what comes out.
Yeah, unfortunately, like if you

780
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,880
applied the same standards,
you're basically into a place

781
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,280
where you can't know anything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

782
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,480
And that's why probably so many
people are at that spot where

783
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,120
they can't do anything 'cause
they're like, well, that's what

784
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:38,960
I'm looking at.
Yeah.

785
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,280
Well, that's good.
Well, look forward to some more

786
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,280
of these.
That's our take.

787
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,240
Thanks for listening to Take
Two.

788
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,560
Find us wherever you find
podcasts and on YouTube for

789
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,280
those who want to watch our
video cast.