Think Tank Thursday—The Kalam Cosmological Argument: Does the Universe Have a Cause?

1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,360
Zach, I've got some concerns.
Oh, let me have it.

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,680
I got some I I found out that
baby, you're not as caring of a

3
00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:13,760
supervisor manager that some
might some might think that you

4
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,840
are.
What's what's your exact title?

5
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,360
I am regional director of.
Operations The regional

6
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,000
director.
Thank goodness I'm not assistant

7
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,600
regional director.
I work for a therapy company of

8
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,760
operations for Berkeley County
and then for our Myrtle Beach

9
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,960
area.
And I guess nothing is really

10
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:34,320
going on in Myrtle Beach right
now, right?

11
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:36,960
Well, I just learned that
there's fires.

12
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:38,960
You told me you're like, man,
how about all these fires in

13
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,880
South Carolina?
And I said, that's news to me.

14
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,880
And really, it's punishment fits
the crime.

15
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,960
It's what I deserve because I've
not been on social media in two

16
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,960
days.
And what that's telling me is I

17
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,040
need to be more, more, more on
social.

18
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,600
Media, that's what.
That's what your take away is.

19
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,040
I'm gonna tell Jonathan.
Zach's take away is he needs me

20
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,800
on social media more.
I I literally I took Facebook

21
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,760
off of my phone 'cause I get on
it too much and now I'm a bad

22
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,640
boss.
I need Facebook to do my.

23
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,000
Job.
So we're recording this on the

24
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:06,720
one second.
I don't think it's going to air

25
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,080
until not even this Thursday,
but next Thursday.

26
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,120
So this might be a little dated.
Hopefully the fires get put out.

27
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,040
We don't.
We don't know.

28
00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:16,840
That's like scary.
And fires are happening

29
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:18,720
everywhere because Michael was
telling me it's because of

30
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,520
global warming, which I was
like, you know what?

31
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,720
I didn't think that, but I trust
your judgements.

32
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,280
Oh, man, yeah, there are weird
things with, you know, I was

33
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,920
telling you we don't have to go
into all the conspiracy theories

34
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,280
that I'm starting to believe,
but there are some weird things

35
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,880
about the fires in LA and the
ones that were in Hawaii that

36
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,240
that.
It's.

37
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,160
Weird, they don't have very good
explanations for.

38
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,320
And if you hear like some
things, you know, former or

39
00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:49,680
current governors of some of
these places have said about

40
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,040
things, it's it's very
concerning.

41
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:51,400
Yeah.
Yeah.

42
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,200
It's very strange.
And this is going way off topic,

43
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,000
but I think it was my 12th
birthday, maybe my 13th

44
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,120
birthday.
My house caught on fire as a.

45
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,120
Kid.
Oh, for real?

46
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,800
It did.
Like burned down or?

47
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,360
It did not burn down, thank
goodness.

48
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,960
But my mom picked me up from
school.

49
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,520
I was bringing a couple of
friends over.

50
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:10,919
I think it was 13, maybe I was
12.

51
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,240
And one of those and she.
Was actually on your birthday

52
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,040
you're gonna have.
A birthday party, my birthday.

53
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:20,520
It was like yeah and she like
got the grill going, put some

54
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,120
like ribs or something on the
grill and then she went to pick

55
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,200
me up for school.
Don't leave a girl intended, but

56
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,360
it's actually good.
She did propane tank exploded.

57
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,880
It was right outside, but my
like whole kitchen was

58
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,560
demolished like smoked.
We had to live like in an

59
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,240
apartment for like 4 months
while they like remodeled our

60
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,240
house and there was a lot of
smoke damage.

61
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,600
That's when I realized like how
bad, you know all of this stuff.

62
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,400
It was like terrible but it
really just blew out like

63
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,920
probably like this side over
like a a decent amount for a

64
00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:49,880
kitchen.
Everything else was like needed

65
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,800
repair but it wasn't like the
whole house burned down.

66
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,240
But my neighbor came over and
like stopped it from getting

67
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:56,480
worse.
He made sure like no one was in

68
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:57,360
there.
It's like pretty amazing.

69
00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,800
Wow, I've never heard the story.
Never heard.

70
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,600
This happy birthday to me.
I don't, I Yeah.

71
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:02,680
It's why I don't celebrate
birthdays.

72
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,720
Yeah, we, I I make a point of
shutting all of our doors at

73
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,160
night when we go to bed.
One, because most people die not

74
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,800
from heat but from toxic
inhalation.

75
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,440
Shutting doors can help that,
but it also helps slow the

76
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,720
spread of fire and smoke damage.
It's like there's videos of

77
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,200
like, you know, these houses
that it's like all black on one

78
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,400
side, you open the door, it
looks like nothing happened on

79
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,440
the other side.
So yeah, so fires.

80
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,880
Fires is crazy.
It reminded me of we don't have

81
00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:34,240
to go into detail too classic,
classic quote by Dwight Schrute.

82
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,440
He says like today smoke is
going to save some lives.

83
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:37,840
He does like the fire drill is
great.

84
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,160
So a lot of fire talk, anything,
anything else in the fire world

85
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,760
that you can pull up through
your past or what's going on

86
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,880
today?
Well, not, I mean nothing that's

87
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,880
kind of banter worthy.
I mean, we had a fire on my

88
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:56,440
block when I was in 3rd grade.
Tragedy took three kids lives in

89
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,640
there.
It was it was crazy.

90
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,400
So my mom was always pretty fire
safety after that.

91
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,120
She didn't want to leave any of
us sleeping, you know, like she

92
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,080
would leave at 7 and school
didn't start to like at 8:15.

93
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,600
And I live like a block away.
So I could get up at 8:30 or

94
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,240
7:35 and, you know, throw in
some clothes and make it.

95
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,880
But she was like, I'm leaving
and you need to be awake and

96
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,480
which?
Was good.

97
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,280
There was a fire like off of 17
a on like some some building or

98
00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:25,680
something recently.
Do you know what I'm saying?

99
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,680
Maybe College Park area like
there was something like a a

100
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,000
fires have been happening a lot.
There was a fire at Taco boy, a

101
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,600
kitchen fire.
I think they put it wasn't like

102
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,760
detrimental 'cause I called for
some take out and they were

103
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,920
like, they're like, oh, sorry,
we're busy right now.

104
00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,600
And I was like, or there's like,
we're not open right now.

105
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,600
And I was like, well, you guys
should be open.

106
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,120
It's like 6:00 on a Saturday.
And they're like, sorry, Sir, we

107
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,240
have a kitchen fire.
It's like, OK, sorry, I didn't

108
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:50,720
mean to be that aggressive
person.

109
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,200
I was like, I was like, why are
you talking to me if you're not

110
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,120
open?
Like I was a little snarky and

111
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,320
she was like, I was like, you
should lead with the kitchens on

112
00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,720
fire.
I would totally understand that.

113
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,800
There's AI was going to say.
There's another fire around.

114
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,160
We pronounced that Maggie for
forever, but if you look at it,

115
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,200
it's before I knew how it was
spelled Magi Rd.

116
00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,360
In along Henry Brown that they
had to shut down Henry Brown in

117
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,560
between like Gay Men's Mall and
Red Bank.

118
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:20,840
So.
That's crazy fires.

119
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,120
Like there was a family recently
at Northwood, that house come on

120
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,120
fire thing, right?
Or something.

121
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,240
Like maybe not recent, maybe a
couple years ago or something,

122
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,720
but it's like fires happen
because part of me was like,

123
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,640
I've seen these things online.
Like I feel like I spent a lot

124
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,400
of my childhood learning about
stop, drop and roll.

125
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,000
Never had to use it, but I guess
it's good to know because it

126
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,520
happens enough.
Right, right.

127
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,120
Yeah.
It's not stop and stop, drop and

128
00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,160
roll anymore.
What is it?

129
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,040
You know this?
I did not notice.

130
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,360
It's stop, drop, cover your eyes
and roll.

131
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:48,560
That mean it makes sense, but it
doesn't.

132
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,560
It doesn't roll.
It's telling quite as good.

133
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,440
It's not as easy to say to cover
the eyes part because I feel

134
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,680
like in elementary school it was
like we spent a lot of time on

135
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,600
that.
Oh, this is so funny, Chloe so

136
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,720
literal, especially when she was
younger.

137
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,480
She's gotten better.
We've just abused her some.

138
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,920
I'll give you some examples.
Like one time we were in

139
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,760
Arkansas.
We were going from Jill's

140
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,280
parents' house to my parents'
house, And we're going to stop

141
00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,840
by this restaurant that's in
Bald Mob called the Bulldog.

142
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:18,040
And we're like, and Jill's like,
hey, do you want to eat there or

143
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,040
eat on the road?
Go ahead.

144
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,560
And and I'm like, we can eat on
the road.

145
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,400
And she starts bawling, like we
can't eat on the road, get hit

146
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,240
by a car, That's great.
So stuff like that.

147
00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,360
But this was when her and Anna,
I got pictures of this night.

148
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:42,440
Diana Globker was teaching and
they had some hot chocolate.

149
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,800
It was Christmas, it was winter.
They went outside.

150
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,560
They are dressed like shepherds
and stuff.

151
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,840
And they had like some candles
there and Diana's little sleeve,

152
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,320
she got caught in the candle
fire and caught on fire.

153
00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,240
And Chloe was told her about it
and she just got some hot

154
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,400
chocolate and I'll sit and put
it out.

155
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,720
But Chloe was really concerned
because she came in like that

156
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,080
night.
She was like, mom, dad, miss

157
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,160
Diana's clothes caught on fire.
She stopped.

158
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,760
She was already dropped because
they were sitting on the ground.

159
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,120
She's like, but she didn't roll.
That's hey, they drill it into

160
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,160
you so much.
I was like in elementary school,

161
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,680
instead of doing that, we should
say like W twos tax dependent,

162
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,800
like just teach me things I can
use, you know, start that at a

163
00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,240
young age.
Well, a lot of fire bans are

164
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:32,600
worked out.
Oh, yeah, that's good.

165
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:33,800
We didn't.
We didn't really know what we're

166
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,520
going to talk about.
But fireworks, Well, you know

167
00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,400
what?
Fireworks.

168
00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,440
Oh.
What?

169
00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,480
What When I I always get fired
up like everyone else about

170
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,320
apologetics.
Who doesn't love?

171
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,720
Apologetics.
I mean, now you're speaking my

172
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,120
language well.
Let's go ahead and let's take it

173
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:56,600
to the next level.
From the hearts of the Low

174
00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,920
Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

175
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,120
we take theology to the next
level.

176
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,440
Well, I was, I was thinking the
other day, Michael, I'm just

177
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,080
happy that we all just appeared.
Yeah, just popped out enough

178
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,280
I'm.
I'm just glad that I can rest,

179
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,800
rest in that.
Does apologetics have anything

180
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,720
to say about that kind of thing?
Yeah, it just popped out of

181
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,640
existence from nowhere.
Yeah.

182
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,360
So I thought that maybe I had
mentioned to you maybe like once

183
00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,920
a month we would maybe take up
one of these apologetic

184
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,240
arguments.
I'm a classical apologist.

185
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,840
Sorry, Cordell, we've not talked
about the difference really

186
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,799
between classical and
presuppositional.

187
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,080
I know that was a request.
By what standard?

188
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:39,760
That's all you have to.
Say by what standard?

189
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,799
You win, you win the argument
every time.

190
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,480
We also, if you're listening,
feel free to chime in.

191
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,880
We should have some word that's
like we should have something

192
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,000
that's like Thursday
apologetics, but it's like a

193
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,760
that they're worth a tea.
I don't know how you do that,

194
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,400
like a Thursday something.
It might not.

195
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,120
It might be.
Impossible, but we can figure it

196
00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,400
out.
Maybe crowd sources.

197
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,480
So that's right, Yeah.
Come up with a name for our.

198
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,480
Apologetics month.
Thursday Tomists.

199
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,720
Yeah, there we go.
There we go.

200
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,280
So, you know, I thought maybe,
you know, I have a master's

201
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,920
degree in philosophy with an
emphasis in apologetics.

202
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,720
It was really important to me.
So maybe we would spend, you

203
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,320
know, we didn't want to do a
whole series on apologic street,

204
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,560
but we could maybe pick up some
topics.

205
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,640
And so as a classical apologist,
you know, one of the main

206
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,960
things, you know, we kind of see
things broadly in two steps.

207
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,000
First step, establish that God
exists.

208
00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,040
Broad second step, you know,
establish who Jesus Christ is

209
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,640
along with the authority and the
reliability of the New

210
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,920
Testament, because those things
kind of go in hand in hand.

211
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,960
And so, you know, kind of one of
the foundational arguments for

212
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,520
God is existence is the
cosmological argument.

213
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,240
And there's different forms of
that.

214
00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,440
So cosmological arguments in
general, they're a family of

215
00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,080
arguments that kind of really
talk about, you know, basically

216
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,840
we look around at the cosmos and
there's some splaining to do

217
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,960
because how did the cosmos get
here, right?

218
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:11,520
And so the particular version
that's been most popularized of

219
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,120
late is the Kalam cosmological
argument.

220
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:14,880
Cool.
Cool word.

221
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,360
It's.
I'm so glad it didn't have,

222
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,800
like, some stupid name.
Wouldn't that be terrible?

223
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,360
Yeah.
Well, so that it's named after

224
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:28,480
this Muslim philosopher from a
long time ago who I don't know

225
00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,960
if it's his name or if just
that's how they that how they

226
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,480
spoke about it, but it's been
really popularized by William

227
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,760
Lane Craig.
There are other cosmological

228
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,440
arguments out there.
There's the tomistic arguments

229
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:41,840
that are kind of all
cosmological.

230
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,000
Your boy.
Yeah.

231
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,800
Your other boy, Greg, Coco and.
Yeah.

232
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,840
And Thomas Aquinas, he'll argue
from motion, he'll argue from

233
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,560
causation, argue from
contingency.

234
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,920
And then probably we should, I
wouldn't want to spend

235
00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,000
necessarily a whole podcast on
any of those 3, but he does take

236
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,920
an Aristotelian argument about
potential and pure existence,

237
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,080
and he argues from that back to
a creator.

238
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,080
And that is an argument that we
should probably look at at some

239
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,920
point on.
These Thursdays, let's let's hit

240
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,640
it.
Leibnitz also had a, I mean a

241
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,160
cosmological argument.
It was based on contingency as

242
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,680
well.
And Leibniz would basically

243
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,600
grant to you that, OK, let's say
the universe is eternal.

244
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:33,360
Even if you had an eternal chain
of of contingent links in that

245
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,800
chain, that whole chain still
has to have an explanation.

246
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:37,200
That's how he's basically going
to argue.

247
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:38,800
Makes sense.
Yeah.

248
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,520
So.
But the Kalam does not assume an

249
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,960
internal universe.
He's actually going to suppose

250
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:50,000
that there's a beginning.
And so maybe we should just get

251
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,560
into the, we already talked
about the origins, Al Kindi and

252
00:11:55,560 --> 00:12:00,520
Al Jazali, and then as I
mentioned, kind of revived by

253
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,480
William Lane Craig.
William Lane Craig and his

254
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,360
studies saw this and was really
intrigued by it and then wrote a

255
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,880
book about it.
All right, So any argument that

256
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,600
we're going to make, we could
sit here and talk about reasons

257
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,960
and we could kind of just have a
conversation about it.

258
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:22,800
But any good, you know, argument
that's philosophically sound,

259
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,560
you should be able to put into,
you know, Step 1, premise 1,

260
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:29,200
premise 2, premise 3IN and then
come to a conclusion.

261
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,040
Now, I think all the ones that
we're going to do are

262
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:32,800
syllogisms, which is a special
type.

263
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,320
It just really has two premises
and then one conclusion.

264
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,760
But the first premise is
whatever begins to exist has a

265
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,480
cause.
Second premise is the universe

266
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,520
began to exist, therefore the
universe has a cause.

267
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,720
Yeah, that that's, that's a good
question for you.

268
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,440
Maybe we'll get into it a little
more.

269
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,160
It seems like, I don't know if
this is more recent or not, but

270
00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,800
it seems like everyone basically
says the universe had a cause

271
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,280
through science or whatever.
Like there was a starting point

272
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,680
and it expands outward.
Yeah.

273
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:12,320
And so that, that is a good, a
good thought there because the

274
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,400
scientists are going to say the
universe had a beginning and

275
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,560
they're going to call that The
Big Bang.

276
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,320
And, and some of your
scientists, when they're just

277
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,080
talking by themselves, they'll,
they'll use those terms.

278
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,200
But when they're kind of
guarding turf because they know

279
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,400
what that might lead to, then
they'll start hedging on that

280
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,960
somewhat.
They'll say, well, our equations

281
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:40,320
get us back to like so many
trillionths of a second before

282
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,200
the beginning and then they
breakdown.

283
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:49,040
But really, you know, if we look
at all our science and we kind

284
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,760
of rewind the clock because we
see things expanding and it's

285
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,400
like, well, if we rewind the
clock, things contract,

286
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,760
contract, contract.
Contract at some.

287
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,560
Point.
At some point there has to be a

288
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:59,960
beginning.
In fact, the term Big Bang was a

289
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,800
derisive term at first.
I believe it by Hoyle, one of

290
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,440
the astronomers, when they found
the blue shifts redshifts.

291
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,160
Yeah.
And he was like, and it was

292
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,360
like, oh, what was it, a Big
Bang that caught on?

293
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,560
Oh yeah, yeah.
Because he didn't like it,

294
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:16,160
because up to that point, before
we observe the expansion of the

295
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,800
universe, it was just commonly
assumed that the universe was

296
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,240
eternal, that it always existed.
And so then that led to this

297
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,040
beginning.
Now, why have I spent a lot of

298
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,920
time?
And I know probably some of our

299
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,840
listeners are young Earthers.
I'm an old Earther.

300
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,640
But we can.
We don't have to agree on how

301
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:40,760
old the universe is, to agree to
say the universe began to exist.

302
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,840
And we should use that as a tool
in our toolbox when we're

303
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,840
talking to people.
I I like that.

304
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,120
So if we're starting at premise
one, kind of looking at these

305
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,520
different premises, whatever
begins to exist has a 'cause you

306
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,000
know, if I look around my
everyday life, it makes sense

307
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,800
for a lot of things even, you
know, if I'm looking at this

308
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,680
kitchen wasn't always here,
someone built it.

309
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,560
I look at my siblings, they
weren't always there.

310
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,760
You know, it, it kind of that
kind of tracks in my mind.

311
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,080
Yeah, and I think it does track
with an everyday experience.

312
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,720
So it's kind of the raw
assumption.

313
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,440
Now some people will say, OK,
well then, what's God's cause?

314
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,080
Yeah, 'cause some people might
be like, OK, we'll grant that,

315
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,480
but we got to keep infinitely
granting that.

316
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,080
But then what I would say to
that is to someone who said

317
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,960
that, well, maybe depending on
who they are, but if it was like

318
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,640
a an atheist in a debate or
something, I would say something

319
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,520
like neither one of us believe
that God began to exist.

320
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,600
You don't believe God exists at
all.

321
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,040
And I believe God was eternal.
So that's the question.

322
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,040
Like God does not fall prey to
this premise because this

323
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,320
premise specifically says things
that begin to exist.

324
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,360
So if you have something that's
eternal, that's always there, it

325
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,320
doesn't.
It can be its own explanation

326
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,640
for its cause, like it is a
necessary thing.

327
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,720
Yeah, you have to grant.
You have to grant it that.

328
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,320
Yeah, eternality or something
like that.

329
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,880
Because things, you know, don't
generally just pop into

330
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,880
existence normally.
Even something that might be

331
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,600
hard to see, like a storm or
something.

332
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,960
It's like there's pressure and
there's like there are things

333
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,840
there.
It's not just out of nowhere.

334
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,720
Yeah.
And there can be natural things

335
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,520
like like you mentioned a storm
that or there can be a man made

336
00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,760
things like a bench or
something, you know.

337
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,800
And so maybe there are some
natural processes that made

338
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:38,840
metal or metal ore and we
fashioned nails from there.

339
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,720
And that had a cause.
And we could talk about, you

340
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,120
know, we've talked about in the
past the four efficient causes

341
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:48,640
or the four types of causes.
But, you know, the table at one

342
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,600
point in time there was, it
could, OK, now it's a table.

343
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,520
It began to exist.
And then we could talk about

344
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,600
it's a material 'cause it's
efficient, 'cause it's, you

345
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,720
know, final cause and formal
cause, all those types of

346
00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,200
things.
Yeah.

347
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,440
OK, so I, I feel pretty good.
Premise one seems like it

348
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,920
resonate with that.
Whatever begins to exist has a

349
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,680
cause.
Premise 2, the universe began to

350
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,119
exist.
We touched on it.

351
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,400
It seems like if you do the
equations and expanding, you can

352
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,040
kind of come back to a starting
point.

353
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,640
At least you know theoretically.
Yeah.

354
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:21,440
And so if if you talk to William
and Craig, he would say that

355
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:27,720
since like the 1920s or 1930s,
because the universe having a

356
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,880
beginning, an absolute beginning
is so distasteful to science.

357
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,840
Cosmology has spent 100 years
trying to get around the

358
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,160
beginning.
And so we've had, you know, the

359
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,080
expanding and contracting
universes.

360
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,400
We've had universes that rebound
or now we're into the

361
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,520
multiverse.
Yeah.

362
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,640
And they're, they're trying to
get around this beginning.

363
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,120
Have they found like those
models just don't work like can?

364
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,080
I mean, I know, I don't know if
they have enough data to like

365
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,440
make like look at it, but they
they're like, oh, the math just

366
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,720
doesn't math with the rebounding
stuff.

367
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,800
That, yes, there's not enough
like you can make a lot of

368
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,120
rebounds, but eventually that's
that's there has to be a

369
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,920
beginning.
And William Lane Craig will

370
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,120
often quote this bored Gutha
Lankan theorem.

371
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,120
Is is sorry, I was just thinking
it's so funny.

372
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:18,280
This is not Greg Cochle.
So sorry to derail us.

373
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,800
Be great if like Greg Cochle has
like a cochle guy that he always

374
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,040
it's like the the uncaused.
It's like the IT keeps.

375
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:26,000
There's a cause behind the
cause.

376
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,080
Anyway, carry on.
Sorry.

377
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:28,800
Yeah.
So William and Craig will talk

378
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,800
about the Borguth, the Lancome
theorem.

379
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,600
And this gets a lot of, you
know, atheists will accuse him

380
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,440
of misusing it.
But if you look at it, he's not

381
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,200
misusing it.
It basically says that any

382
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:47,720
universe that on average expands
over its existence cannot be

383
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,600
past complete.
So that means that that

384
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,160
scientists speak of saying it
can't go on for forever.

385
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,800
It has to have a stop.
And so then it has to have

386
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,480
beginning.
Now Kraus has recently said,

387
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,840
well, you could have it go back
to the beginning and then

388
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,960
another universe shoot off and
time is going in the opposite

389
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,680
direction.
But really, really that is, is

390
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,640
just two universes coming from
the same standpoint, time going

391
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,960
both.
You know, it's it's it's not a

392
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,560
model that works the other way.
The only way to get around that

393
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,240
is if you have a boundary
condition.

394
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,680
Now I know that math is probably
not.

395
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,320
I mean, you had to take some
math.

396
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,320
Had to take some math.
I'm not not not a whole lot.

397
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,120
I think I topped out.
I did take some, you know, calc

398
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,200
classes but not but not nothing
past that.

399
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,320
Really.
So you've seen like piecewise

400
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,640
functions like where you have a
function that gets defined one

401
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,000
way for this little bit, but
then there's a boundary and it

402
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,280
gets changed.
Man, I hated all this.

403
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,040
Yeah, yeah, it's, I haven't
PTSD, but I remember some I, I,

404
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,400
I'm not totally tracking, but I
know.

405
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,680
Yeah, so so basically Borgwith
Lincoln theorem is saying if you

406
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,320
have a boundary you can get
around this, but then you have

407
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,520
to have an explanation for the
boundary like why did?

408
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,200
You got another problem.
Why did it change?

409
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,240
Right.
So yeah, so there is a lot of

410
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,320
scientific evidence.
Special relativity, a general

411
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,240
relativity, has been verified
within, like everything we do

412
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,560
just fully verifies it.
And if it's true, then our

413
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,600
universe had a beginning.
Wow, yeah, a lot of good stuff

414
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,760
there.
Anything else on premise 2 we

415
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,120
want to hit?
There's a lot in there.

416
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:25,800
I don't know what you want to
hit, what you don't want to hit.

417
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,080
Well, second law of
thermodynamics and entropy, it's

418
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,600
like, you know, you have
whenever we, you know.

419
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,400
People don't dispute this either
right?

420
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,560
I feel like this is like
everyone agree.

421
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,480
Like the laws of thermodynamics
are pretty like there where

422
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,200
people generate.
Like I went to a Christian

423
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,160
School for college, but everyone
was like, these are things that

424
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,000
happen.
Right.

425
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,560
Yeah, No one disputes the laws
of the second law,

426
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,720
thermodynamics, the the slow
increase of entropy.

427
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,480
But you know, we have an amount
of usable energy in our universe

428
00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:59,880
right now.
That makes sense.

429
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:05,160
If we had an infinite universe,
we would already be to the point

430
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,480
where we didn't have any usable
energy.

431
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,160
Does that make sense?
Yeah, at some point.

432
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,520
Yeah, because it's winding down.
It's like we have gas in our

433
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,320
tank right now.
There had to be a point in time

434
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,240
when that gas was full.
Like if we had, if this car had

435
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,760
been going forever, we would not
have gas in our car, right?

436
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,000
Now no, that that makes sense.
It's like every it's got a

437
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,280
certain certain amounts.
Philosophically, what do we

438
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,480
think about this?
Yeah, these are a little bit

439
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,160
harder to explain, especially in
a short period of time.

440
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,840
But there's this Hilbert's Hotel
that had an infinite number of

441
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,000
rooms and you but all the rooms
are full.

442
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,680
So the question is, if someone
shows up, could you add them to

443
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:50,880
it?
Could you give them a room?

444
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,520
This infinite number of rooms,
but every single one of them is

445
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,040
full?
I'm thinking like Hotel

446
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,800
California, you can check in.
She can't leave.

447
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,280
Yeah.
Yeah, it turns out you could

448
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,280
give someone a room.
Like you just say, hey, go to

449
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,480
room 1, everyone else go down a
room.

450
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,040
And so there's like this
infinite shuffle, but you can

451
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,360
fit someone in.
In fact, you could fit if you

452
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:14,960
had a line of infinite number of
people, you could fit an

453
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,600
infinite number of people into
this room.

454
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,240
You would just say, all right,
first person in line, everyone

455
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,280
in your room, just double your
room number.

456
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,320
So 1 go to 22, go to 343, go to
six.

457
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,320
And then everyone else, you send
them to the odds, you go to

458
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,640
1356.
And now I've I have it.

459
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:38,520
The the whole point of this is
to show the absurdity of an

460
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,600
actual infinite.
Oh, gotcha that.

461
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We can kind of mind game these

462
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,320
things, but it is absurd to have
an actual infinite number of

463
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,880
rooms.
And in the same way it's an

464
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,800
absurd to think that there's an
actual infinite number of days.

465
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,040
There has to be a starting
point.

466
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:56,400
So all these are kind of saying
the same thing in different

467
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,320
ways.
And just like second law

468
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,200
thermodynamics, you know,
they're, you can't go past what

469
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,200
you got, you can't go the other
way either.

470
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,640
And it's paradoxical in a.
Way right, right.

471
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,960
And the infinite regress problem
is you can't get to Infinity by

472
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,200
adding one.
So you can't get to negative

473
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,160
Infinity by tracking subtracting
1.

474
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,560
So you can't subtract 1,
subtract 1, subtract 1 and get

475
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,880
just go go back for forever.
So it's it's illogical to try to

476
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,880
try to traverse an an infinite
with single additions or

477
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,640
subtractions.
All right, so you look at that,

478
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,040
you come to this conclusion, the
universe then has a cause.

479
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,200
Then you got to think, you got
to think about this cause.

480
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,160
You've loses a little bit What
what would this cause be like?

481
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,040
What kind of properties?
Right.

482
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,160
And so, so far we have not
really talked anything about the

483
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,120
Bible or religion.
I.

484
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:45,960
Know this ain't precept, I can
tell you that much.

485
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,760
We have taken things that we can
see with our own eyes and

486
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,840
concluded to the fact that there
must be you know our everyday

487
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,880
experience.
Things don't pop into existence

488
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,360
throughout the cause and when we
look at science it looks like

489
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,520
our universe had a beginning.
From those two things we can say

490
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:08,160
universe has has cause and so we
can reason from those like non

491
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,600
religious things to some.
Religious things, right?

492
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,600
I see.
And a lot of times people will

493
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,360
say, well, that's the God of
philosophy or that's, that's

494
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000
Aristotle's God, but that's not
the God of the Bible.

495
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,920
Like one, we're not necessarily
trying to get to Yahweh from

496
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,160
this argument alone.
Like we're just trying to to

497
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,720
show that there is a theistic
God who exists.

498
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,440
But when you consider the
implications of this argument,

499
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,440
so the universe, it's got time,
it's got matter, it's got

500
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,280
energy.
Like, you know, the potential

501
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,000
energy, kinetic energy, you
know, the entropy that's winding

502
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,800
that useful energy down in
order, None of that stuff could

503
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:05,840
exist before this.
So the God who created, you

504
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,840
know, the cause of this universe
would have to be spaceless, like

505
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,760
no extensions.
That's what we would consider a

506
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,880
spirit.
You know, we say God a spirit.

507
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,920
Well, that aligns with the Bible
says that God is timeless

508
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,240
because time came into existence
with creation.

509
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,600
And so the Bible tells us that
God's eternal, that he's

510
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,320
unchanging those those ideas of
timelessness, He's immaterial.

511
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,720
He's not made out of matter.
Like he can't be made out of the

512
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,120
stuff that is part of creation
because he created that stuff.

513
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,160
It's got to be powerful because
he brought this into existence.

514
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,880
Now, the one thing that the
universe doesn't have is a

515
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,160
material cause for its
beginning.

516
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,800
So if you think about that like
if I make a.

517
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,960
Table you.
Have materials.

518
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,640
I have materials that I went and
got and I fashioned them into a

519
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,720
table.
But God made this ex nihilo out

520
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,480
of nothing, right?
Which is a little bit of a mind

521
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,280
Bender.
So how did God do that?

522
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,000
We we don't know.
He's all powerful.

523
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,520
He's got to be personal because
this happened.

524
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,040
God decided when it would
happen, even from eternity, from

525
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760
from the eternal.
Now he's like, OK, I decided

526
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,040
that this is going to happen and
it was a decision.

527
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,680
So some of the things that well
we got some objection.

528
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,800
So unless you had questions
about anything that we said

529
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,240
there?
No, no, I think I think you

530
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,040
nailed it good.
And I think you nailed the

531
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,200
people that aren't fans of
classical apologetics or

532
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,160
whatever will be like, why don't
you just go to Genesis 11 or,

533
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,320
you know, it's like you're not
necessarily because they would

534
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,880
be like, Oh yeah, you can be a
Catholic or Islam like, but

535
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,200
you're you're if if someone's
like, well, I'm, you know, a

536
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:45,840
Muslim, you you would probably
have a different set of

537
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,840
apologetics to, you know, argue
to get to a lot.

538
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,120
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like you're it's a multi step

539
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,080
process.
And it's not saying, you're

540
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,640
saying you're not saying I'm not
allowed to talk about the Bible.

541
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,040
You can do both of these at the
same time.

542
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,240
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely
right.

543
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,120
And you can do both.
But you know, David in Psalm 19

544
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,880
would say the glory of the Lord
declares, you know, the the

545
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,600
heavens declare the glory of the
Lord day after night that pour

546
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,680
forth speech.
We don't hear them, but they're

547
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,760
saying something.
And then Paul in Romans, one

548
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,360
would say that we can come to
the conclusion that God exists

549
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,680
from what he's made.
So we are kind of in a sense,

550
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,360
we're doing what both David and
Paul say we should do.

551
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,840
Awesome.
Yeah, take it away with some of

552
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,160
these objections.
Yeah, so objection one, maybe

553
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,040
the universe caused itself that,
you know, even when I was

554
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,320
talking about God being eternal,
I didn't say God caused himself,

555
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,720
but I would say that his cause
or his existence is bound up in

556
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,200
his essence.
And by his nature, He is

557
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,600
something that exists, you know,
eternally.

558
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,520
But when you look at the
universe, that does not seem to

559
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,840
be one of those things, like one
of the things in order to exist

560
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,080
eternally, you can't change.
Because if you do change, then

561
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,240
you fall prey to all the stuff
we talked about in infinite

562
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,600
regress, right?
And so it's good that our Bible

563
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,120
says God doesn't change.
You know there's no shadow of

564
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:19,600
changing with him, so the
universe doesn't seem to fit

565
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,560
into something that could be
eternal or cause itself.

566
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,600
I do.
I do like the second objections.

567
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,960
I'm talking about quantum
mechanics because I know nothing

568
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,880
about quantum mechanics, but
things just pop up and you can't

569
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,520
trace the all these corks
exactly all over the place.

570
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,560
And, you know, people always
raise that kind of objection.

571
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:42,360
Yes.
So OK, this might be a little

572
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,240
bit tougher, but when I've
explained space, a lot of us

573
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,680
think it's space.
Let's think of an ultimate

574
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,240
vacuum.
Like there's no matter there.

575
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,040
There is still a bowl to hold
matter there, right?

576
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,880
There's something that can hold
matter.

577
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,720
There's not nothing.
Space is not nothing.

578
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,800
And from a quantum physics
perspective, we would say that's

579
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,400
the vacuum energy of the
universe.

580
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,320
So there is energy in the, if I
can use the word fabric of space

581
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,800
that can allow a proton or an
atom or something to exist

582
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,240
there.
And so out of this vacuum

583
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,760
energy, you can have particle
pair production, which means I

584
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,120
can produce 2 particles of the
same nature of obstinate parity.

585
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,360
So antimatter and matter, they
can pop up and they can collide

586
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,000
and go back down into that
energy.

587
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,280
There are, I think, 1317
different ways of interpreting

588
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,720
the the quantum physics
equations.

589
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,320
Most people go with the ones
that make it indeterminate.

590
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,240
The math is the same.
It's like I look at an equation

591
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,040
and I say, I think this is
what's going on with this

592
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,240
equation.
You look at the same equation,

593
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,920
you're like, oh, I agree with
that math, but I think this is

594
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,080
what the equation's telling me.
There are views of those

595
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,560
equations that are completely
deterministic, that that's not

596
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,440
happening randomly.
In fact, there are group of

597
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,640
folks who are chemists who have
basically produced all the same

598
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,720
effects.
We see quantum physics using a

599
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:31,920
carrier wave particle system, so
that may be like whoo, this is

600
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,120
all going overhead, but there
are there and that is completely

601
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,320
deterministic as well.
So if you're interested in

602
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,640
looking into those things, you
could look into that.

603
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,880
Some people have also said that
gravity caused the universe to

604
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,520
come into existence.
I think Neil deGrasse Tyson has

605
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,960
said that like the laws of
gravity, the laws of gravity are

606
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,920
part of the universe.
So that's just saying that's

607
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,640
another way of saying that the
universe caused itself.

608
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,480
Well, I got one for you.
I've watched a lot of Marvel

609
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,160
recently, and so I think I found
a loophole.

610
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,640
The multiverse, that's the
that's the secret to getting

611
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,760
around all of.
This SO multiverse gets brought

612
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,200
up for this argument and fine
tuning sometimes to try to get

613
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,000
away around the fine tuning, but
both the multiverse just pushes

614
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,560
the question back a layer.
The multiverse is still going to

615
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,480
fall prey to the Borgoof
Thalancum theorem.

616
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,760
So it OK, let's for the sake of
argument grant there's a

617
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,120
multiverse it it has to come
into being at some point in time

618
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,440
'cause it's not eternal.
And so maybe there is this

619
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,720
mechanism that is producing
these bubbles of universes.

620
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,960
OK, we could grant that forsake
of argument.

621
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,680
I don't know how we could ever
know that that's the case.

622
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,640
Like how could we get outside of
our universe to measure that?

623
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,760
But doesn't get around the
problem, it just pushes it back

624
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,640
and stuff.
Because whatever that multiverse

625
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,400
generator is, it would also have
to have a cause for it its

626
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,600
existence.
OK.

627
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,160
All right.
One more objection for you.

628
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,120
Maybe like the math, the
physics, I kind of understand

629
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,880
it.
You know, you said this is a

630
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,000
personal creator.
Why?

631
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,560
Why isn't it just arbitrary
random, or why does it relate to

632
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,280
people?
Or why is it a personal creator?

633
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,120
Well, let me reference one of
your favorite movies, Star Wars.

634
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,480
Remember, there's a force there.
Oh, yeah.

635
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,400
And it's just there.
Yeah.

636
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:29,480
And it takes a mind, a person to
really get the Force to do

637
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,680
something that you want.
The Force doesn't do anything on

638
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,240
its own.
And so in the same way, if you

639
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,640
just have a force like gravity
or some other non natural, non

640
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,600
personal thing, it's not you
have to be a person to decide to

641
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,000
do something.
That's what we you know, we

642
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,880
talked about a person having
intellect, a will and emotions.

643
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,040
Well, that will is the thing
that decides I want to do this

644
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,320
now or I want this to be done
now.

645
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,760
And so since creation was a
deliberate act because it

646
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,600
couldn't have just popped in by
some force deciding to act, then

647
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,320
we say it has to be personal.
All right, those are four big

648
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,920
objections.
What else we got on this

649
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,600
argument?
I don't think that in most of

650
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,040
your conversations you may come
across someone who has studied

651
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,560
this a lot.
But I wouldn't wouldn't want

652
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,520
someone to walk away from this
podcast and go.

653
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,600
I just said a lot of things I
didn't understand.

654
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,520
And I don't know how I'd use
that.

655
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,880
What I would want you to be able
to to do is have a good idea of

656
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,600
the thumbnail sketch of this and
you could just say to someone,

657
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,360
how do you think the universe
came into existence?

658
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,360
You know, everyone agrees that
there was a Big Bang.

659
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,080
What brought it into existence?
You are, without going through

660
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,840
premise 1, premise 2 premise in
the conclusion, you are

661
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,600
basically giving an informal
version of the cosmological

662
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,200
argument.
And I'll say there was a time

663
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,320
where I was like kind of
doubting stuff.

664
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,360
This is like when I was, you
know, when I was really

665
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,840
becoming, you know, saved around
age 16 and 17.

666
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,600
And I wouldn't have been been
able to articulate all that I

667
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,120
said then because I've studied
this since then.

668
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,280
But this idea stuck with me.
Like, there has to be an

669
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,080
explanation for what is here.
And that's all the cosmological,

670
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,239
different types of cosmological
arguments are saying.

671
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,159
They're saying there's stuff
here.

672
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,280
There has to be an explanation
for it.

673
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,480
Evolution doesn't do it for you.
And even if someone says well,

674
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,080
The Big Bang, like well, what
caused The Big Bang?

675
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,840
Use that as a jumping off point.
Like you don't have to run from

676
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,679
that 'cause I feel like I grew
up in a school that was like,

677
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,159
don't say those words, Big Bang
it.

678
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:50,920
But it's like that's not a bad
thing because you can, you know,

679
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,239
justify that.
Talk through it.

680
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,120
That's good.
Yep.

681
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,240
So hopefully this has been
beneficial to you, giving you a

682
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,760
little bit of deep dive into
cosmological, the Kalam version

683
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,360
of the cosmological argument,
maybe some to Mystic Thursday, I

684
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,320
don't know.
Yeah, there's something there.

685
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,440
I'm excited for it.
Thanks for hanging in there with

686
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,360
us.
Any last apologetics words you

687
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,440
want to impart to our audience?
No, not that I can think of.

688
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,760
That's all of them I have right
now that.

689
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,800
Was that was a lot of thoughts.
That is our take.

690
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:26,720
Thanks for listening to Take
Two.

691
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,040
Find us wherever you find
podcasts and on YouTube for

692
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,760
those who want to watch our
video cast.