Who is Michael the Arch Angel?

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All right, you're looking a
little sleepy there.

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Dude, Zach, I'm so sleepy.
I just got back from camping for

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two nights, not sleeping well.
I'm I'm I'm dragging.

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Yeah, well, ever, whether you
we're camping or not, we just

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entered a new phase of our
existence.

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GMT -4 for those who are
Greenwich meantime -4 instead of

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-5 and we call that when you
live here Daylight Saving Time.

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That sounds so wrong.
It sounds so.

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I don't think I've heard anyone
say that in my life.

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I think I've only heard daylight
savings this weekend.

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Yeah, well, that's because
everyone gets it wrong.

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So to me.
It's easier to put the S on it.

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Honestly.
I think.

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It probably it just rolls off
the tongue.

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To me this is.
My savings time.

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This is a mature, mature
situation where when people say

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mature, I say maybe that's
technically right, but I don't

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like the way you're talking.
I'm going to say mature and

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then.
I've never heard, I've never

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heard anybody say that
seriously.

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Mature.
Like, yeah, you have.

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You have.
Oh, I have.

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It's usually an older person who
is just trying to be like,

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they're not, you know, there's
doing that.

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They posh, they're trying.
Yeah.

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And I'm just like, man, daylight
savings time is what I say to

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that.
Yeah.

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Because you posted this on
Facebook.

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I did.
I did last night.

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I was like hey it's because I
saw someone else post and it was

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a meme so they didn't type it
out but it said it was written

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out daylight savings time and
it's just as like fingernails on

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a chalkboard for me.
I'm like it's it's not savings

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time it is daylight saving time.
My favorite part time that saves

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daylight.
I, I, you know, I.

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Constant time is the.
Technicality, I get it.

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This is my favorite part though.
Michaels Lake at dinner, I guess

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with my mind.
Your chicken, you know,

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fettuccine and you're like,
scroll and be like, hey, what's

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up, Lydia?
And you're like, Oh my goodness,

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you flipped the posse.
You're like daylight saving time

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people.
And I can appreciate that.

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I like that 'cause I think, I
think I was trying to think of

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some things like that that
bother me And there are a lot.

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They're not coming to me right
now.

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Like things like that, where
it's like, oh man, you're not,

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you're not saying it correctly.
And, and a lot of people, I

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don't know if you probably don't
deal with this, but maybe do,

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people will just put EST at the
end of like, you know, for me,

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'cause I work in a world of.
Different.

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Of 24 hour clocks, people will
be like 1400 EST and they'll put

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that in the summer and I'm like
we're not in EST right now,

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we're in EDT, we're in Eastern
Daylight Time.

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So you can't you just be rolling
out the EST and don't?

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Don't just let's PSA, don't just
roll out the EST.

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I'm talking to you.
Well, we were working with a

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contractor in Arizona and you
may or may not know the whole

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state of Arizona does not abide
by daylight saving time.

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So they stay on what would it be
Mountain Standard Time the whole

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time.
And so we get this, this e-mail

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setting up and it and it wasn't.
And it was like, hey, we're

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going to have this meeting at
1100 EST.

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And I was like, did he really
mean EST?

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The people in Arizona need to
know whether it's standard

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Daylight Time because we're in
Daylight Time.

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And I was had to go back was
like, hey, John, you said EST.

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And I hate to be pedantic, I
hate to be that person, but we

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got people who are in Arizona.
Did you mean Eastern Daylight

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Time?
He's like, what do you mean

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there's a difference?
I was like, yes, there's a

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difference.
That's the same.

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That's why Trump just needs the
executive Order it all the way.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm fine.
Let's just take a whole one the.

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Whole country needs to get away.
With just like as long as we

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don't swap like, yeah, I prefer
this one, but I'm fine with

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standard.
Just put us.

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In one and leave.
Well, isn't it?

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And there's more than one state
that does it differently.

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Right?
There is.

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There is a state that does it,
like halfway down the middle.

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Yeah, dude, that's tricky.
Honestly, I'm going the other

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way.
Let's have more changes at the

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times.
I'm just kidding.

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I'm just kidding.
I've never met someone.

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Who likes?
I don't think it was a state, it

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was a city that because it's
like half of the city is on I.

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Heard this.
And one side and half the city

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is on the other side.
And Brent Hanson, do you know

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who Brent Hanson is?
He had a jig in one place and it

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crossed the time, the dateline,
maybe it was in Indianapolis or

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some, I don't know, and he
didn't realize he was losing an

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hour going that direction and he
was almost late.

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So anyways.
Wow, yeah, I got, I got fired

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up.
You, you look so tired that I

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decided to bring.
Whoa, we got another.

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I mean, that has to be my thing,
right when I come on the

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podcast.
I love it.

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Can you further everyone at
home?

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What what number podcast?
What number energy are you on?

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Like for you personally, like
cataloging?

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I'm I need to double check but
I'm pretty sure I'm over 750

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now.
Wow, you're almost to 1000.

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Yeah, I'm not.
So it's going to take a while

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when I buy some from my like
since I drink 1A day like the I

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try to save as much money by
buying a bulk.

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So I'll buy those from Amazon,
but when I go try to find the

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new ones I'll have to buy them
individually.

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OK, so there's just 750
different energy drinks floating

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all around there's.
More than that, those are the

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ones I found.
Yeah, Can I give you some

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caffeine, Michael?
I know you.

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I'll.
Take a little bit and.

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This one has the extra little an
extra.

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Little ingredient for you.
What's the extra ingredient?

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This has beta alanine.
What is that?

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So this will make you tingle
potentially a little bit.

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It's great.
Homo Cardiologist doesn't watch

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this podcast.
I mean, I think, I think you'll

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be fine because I think, I think
the beta alanine is supposed to

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increase blood vessel dilation.
I think increase blood flow to

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muscles to help them sustain
later.

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All I know is it tastes really
good.

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And.
Doesn't it?

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It tastes like a Jolly Rancher.
It tastes like a jolly.

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Just like a jolly.
Sport and fitness can't be bad

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for you.
I mean, yeah, honestly.

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Sport and fitness has got to be
good.

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We talked about this last
podcast briefly, but we were

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like churches should test, you
know, pastors for like PEDs

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performance, dancing, drugs in
case they had like a great.

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Surge that, yeah.
Maybe they need to test us after

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this podcast.
Be like that beta out.

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It was unfair how great Clay was
on that podcast, 'cause he was,

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you know?
Can we say this like with, with

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with with Tim's clicker
performance we give it was a

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pass.
It was all your fault there,

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Michael.
You should have.

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You should have fixed it.
I know, I know.

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And he said Michael over and
over and over again.

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I like it.
Segway.

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Segway.
Can before you Segway it.

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OK, OK, in his defense, I don't
know what happens in these

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times.
It seemed like.

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I mean I don't know what he did
but it's like one time he

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clicked a button and it was like
15 slides later.

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Press in hell.
Or is there is there a skip to

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end button maybe?
I don't know.

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But then Ethan was trying to
help him in the back.

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I was like, don't, don't do
that.

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Like just he yeah, you're going
to make it worse because you're

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all going to be fighting against
each other.

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I was like, just let him find it
where he wants to be.

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I think it because when Pastor
holds it up, like he will hold

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up because it is just an RF
signal from there.

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And he was like trying to do it,
you know, behind the TV screen

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or something like that.
You know, I believe he's getting

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blocked.
I was going to say, I appreciate

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someone getting up there in a
little flair.

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We should do more like behind
the back clicker points up top.

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We just need a better technology
because I think that adds

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something to the sermon.
There's something there.

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Think about the the one on the
chin was was good though, doing

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it for a good He did it for a
good 60 seconds.

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It was on.
It was on the chin for a good 60

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seconds.
But back to your segue.

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Oh yeah, yeah.
So every time it didn't, he

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said.
Michael I wasn't even sitting at

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the you know, there's three
spots in the booth, sound

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person, video Switcher in the
slides.

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And I do occasionally pick up
slides, but normally it's sound.

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I hate doing video.
I will always put clay there if

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I can put someone there other
than me.

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I don't play your nature.
But yeah, so every time you

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didn't click, you'd be like, oh,
Michael, Michael.

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So yeah, good segue to our our
podcast today.

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We're going to be talking about
Michael, who is like God

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statement or question.
Wow.

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Yeah, hang on to your seats as
we get on the podcast.

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Clay, start us off.
Let's take it to the next level.

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next.

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Level Michael the Archangel.
There's a a ton of biblical text

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on on him.
Yeah, I like my favorite 1 is

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where he rows the boat ashore.
Hallelujah.

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The classic, the classic.
I I just say that because it's

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something we were talking about
a little bit before the podcast,

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but it's something everyone
knows.

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Michael the Archangel, no one
doesn't know him, but people

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don't know a whole lot beyond
that, myself included, Really

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have not thought more deeply
until our good friend, my Tesla

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brother Clay brought it to
brought to attention, talked

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about more and I and like I'm,
I'll, I'll just say right now

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I'm like undecided, but I just
haven't thought that deeply

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about Michael before and seen
some of these connections, which

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are pretty cool.
Yeah, I I listen to a podcast

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again by my favorite guys,
Blurry Creatures and I Whoa.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Second guy, sorry, second

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favorite podcast.
I apologize.

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I want to get asked back on, so
I'm going to, Yeah, I want to

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make a correction, but I thought
it was super interesting and I

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sent it to Michael and I.
Thought it was interesting too.

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Yeah, I, I, it's not, it's just,
that's something that I just

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love about that podcast is they
bring up topics that aren't

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really ever discussed or I had
never really heard of before.

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And I think it's, I think it's
neat kind of looking through the

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scripture and looking at Michael
and how he's described and, and

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what he could potentially be
and, and the, and the, and the

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scripture.
So.

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Yeah, I'm right there with you.
Pretty, pretty amazing.

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And so the the question that
we're going to pose or the

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question we're going to ask is
Michael the Archangel, the

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angelic representation of
Christ.

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And that kind of sounds pretty
strong.

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It's it kind of sounds on its
face.

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Yeah, So what we're not asking
is what the Jehovah's Witnesses

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believe.
We're not saying is Jesus a mere

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creation, AKA Michael the
Archangel, the first of

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creation, the highest of
creation, but still creative

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being.
That's not what's on the table

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here.
What we're what's on the table

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is, is does God the Son have
another title?

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Did he make himself known in
another way, possibly through

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the the the manifestation of
Michael the Archangel?

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Sorry, I was thinking my mind
glitched because I was thinking

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I do remember Harold camping.
Do you all know Harold Camping?

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Unfortunately, I knew, yeah.
He believed that both Gabriel

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and Michael were Theophanes.
Christophanes.

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00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,720
I don't know that that helps us
are.

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00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,440
They in the.
Are they in the same scene at

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00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,080
the same time though?
So that would be kind of weird.

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00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,080
Are they?
I think Gabriel just was a

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00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,840
messenger to We only know of
Gabriel because he brought the

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00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,640
word to Mary for sure, and then
we suspect it was him for

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Joseph.
Is that right?

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00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,000
I thought that one of the verses
talks about Michael going to

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00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,720
save Gabriel or from something
or somebody.

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00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,760
OK, well, we should read, I
mean, there are only a handful

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00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,480
of verses that talk about about
Michael the Archangel.

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00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,840
Three of them are in Daniel,
one's in Jude, one's in

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00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,040
Revelation.
Maybe we should start out by

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00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,120
reading those verses.
Quick kind of comes around to

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00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,600
your first question about, you
know, there's a whole, it's not

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00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,840
like we get chapters and
chapters on Michael.

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00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,400
So that is one of the dangers
here like, you know, at the end

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00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:43,680
of this.
Yeah.

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00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,120
You know, we, I don't, I don't
know that you could be very firm

247
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,440
on on where you stand.
Maybe Clay could be I I don't

248
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,200
know that I could be very firm
on this.

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00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:58,120
But because I, I guess it has
something to do with owning a, a

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00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,600
Tesla.
These these verses are in from

251
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,160
the ESV, not the NASB and we'll
just, we'll just roll with it.

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00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:06,600
I.
Like it?

253
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,040
You're speaking my language.
I like ESV.

254
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:10,640
Do you like ESV?
I love you.

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00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,120
Do you like Teslas?
Another high 5.

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00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,640
I love it, well I do.
You guys might already have your

257
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,000
bibles turned to this first
reference as well, but maybe

258
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,400
talk about Michael as the Prince
of Israel.

259
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,880
Yes, yeah.
So Daniel 1013 says the Prince

260
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,480
of the Kingdom of Persia
withstood me 21 days.

261
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,440
Now you may be asking, who is
the Prince of the Kingdom of

262
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,720
Persia?
But Michael, one of the chief

263
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,520
Princess, came to help me, for I
was left there with the kings of

264
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,320
Persia.
To me, this is a good starting

265
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,880
verse because I think this is
where most people, myself

266
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,360
included, I'm like alarm bells
are going off.

267
00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,280
If Michael's the guy, if Michael
is if Christophany, it's weird

268
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,680
that he's one of the chief
Princess, but there's there's

269
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,840
another way.
What I'm obviously this has been

270
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,760
addressed, is this like a
translation issue or like that

271
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,440
could that could mean or I guess
we were talking it could

272
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,320
factually.
Is the chief, then he's also one

273
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,520
of the chief.
It's what you or maybe it's a

274
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,840
way of speaking.
Like, I think if you were to

275
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:24,240
come down hard, you might say,
you know, sometimes there's an

276
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,200
understatement in Hebrew, in
hyperbole.

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00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:27,960
I don't know.
I don't.

278
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,000
I don't remember Doug Van Dorn
addressing this.

279
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,960
I don't think he specifically
addressed this, no.

280
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,840
I think he talks about how
there's other verses in the

281
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,960
Bible that call Jesus the Prince
of Princess and the King of

282
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,400
kings.
So it it could be something like

283
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,280
that.
The chief Prince is the Prince

284
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,040
of Princess.
And I was trying to think, you

285
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,480
know, you read in a place like
Colossians or something to say

286
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,280
Christ is the first born of all
creations.

287
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,680
It's like a weird phrase, but it
really speaks to preeminence.

288
00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,080
It's it's not it's not saying he
was So I don't know the, you

289
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,160
know, Hebrew or anything like
that.

290
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,720
So that's to me, that's like the
one thing I kind of want to work

291
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:06,200
with and understand better.
But anyway, first, first place

292
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,440
we we see and then a couple
chapters later Daniel 12 verse

293
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:16,880
one we read at that time shall
arise Michael the great Prince

294
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,360
who is charge of your people.
And there shall be a time of

295
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,960
trouble such as never has been
since there was a nation till

296
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,200
that time.
But at that point your people

297
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,360
shall be delivered.
This is a long first, first

298
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,880
everyone whose name should
become written in the book.

299
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,640
But the point is, looking to
this time, at the end, Michael,

300
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,840
this great Prince will will be
there.

301
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,920
Well, and there's another one in
in chapter 10 as well. 10. 21

302
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,200
But let's let's stick with 12
one that you just read because

303
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,520
some people would say this links
Michael with the resurrection,

304
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:53,880
which would give you some clues
that it is Yeah, well, who would

305
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,760
call Christ today Jesus the
Messiah?

306
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,320
So that that would be, you know,
1021 says.

307
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,640
But I will tell you what is
inscribed in the book of truth.

308
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,400
There is none who contends by my
side against these except

309
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,240
Michael your Prince.
So.

310
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,720
So Daniel, Daniel sitting,
Michael Heavy.

311
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,920
That's a big you know, one of
these big books where you see

312
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,120
Michael Michael a lot.
Any any other commentary on

313
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,440
these Daniel passages that sees
great chief Prince, Obviously,

314
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,240
you know, big deal, a lot going
on protecting doing these kind

315
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:33,960
of things.
But anything else before I keep

316
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,600
moving on?
Well, I don't know, this might

317
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,320
be further on in the notes, but
I think that one of the things I

318
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,920
liked about that aspect of
Michael, the physicality of

319
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,680
Michael as the Prince of Israel
is that is that there's a

320
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,040
physicality.
Other times where there's a

321
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,640
Christophan, he is I think we
talked about is the Angel of the

322
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,320
Lord.
You know, the Angel of the Lord

323
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,760
led and protected the Exodus,
you know, and that I think

324
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,200
that's a clear Christophany
because it accept he accepted

325
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,040
worship from the Israelites and
so.

326
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,960
So he's either the Angel of the
Lord or a bad Angel.

327
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,440
He can't be a good Angel.
Except worship, yeah.

328
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,160
And so I think that I think that
if you know, there's, there's

329
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,760
other places in the, in the
Bible that there's many names of

330
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,120
God, there's many names of
Jesus.

331
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,960
So Michael could be one of the
names, just another name of

332
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:25,720
Jesus like the Angel of the Lord
was.

333
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,720
Michael could have been as well.
Yeah, that's really interesting.

334
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:34,080
You see all these different
different names and most people

335
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,880
are not divided on an Angel of
the word.

336
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,320
Like we were saying it's Angel
don't like mentioned like 60

337
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,480
plus times like explicitly and
probably pronouns that would.

338
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,880
So that's probably the issue
with Michael.

339
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,240
It's like, oh, I wish there was
like a few more things, but it's

340
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,240
not out of the realm of
possibilities.

341
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,360
Yeah, because what?
Say it again, what?

342
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,400
What's Michael mean?
Who is like God?

343
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,280
Who is like God?
So I mean, it's like a name.

344
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,280
And it's also like, who is like
God, you know, So like some of

345
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,560
that kind.
Yeah, when I was young girl, I

346
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,440
was all about that because I was
like, Oh yeah, Oh my God.

347
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,720
But then I was like, well,
probably it should be a question

348
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:09,079
for me, you know, like, like,
you know, question like, is

349
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,000
there anyone like that?
Clearly, there's not anyone.

350
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,560
Like, it's like a rhetorical
question.

351
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,480
But, you know, like you said,
Daniel could be referring to

352
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,760
this Prince who is like God, who
is like God, like, you know,

353
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:24,960
it's hard.
It's hard to be dogmatic for me.

354
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,599
But it seems like the hints are
there.

355
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,800
Well, also I think another
point, you know, you know, based

356
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,680
on based on I guess how I'm
speaking, I'm pro, I think

357
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,520
Michael is a Christophany.
Is that the Prince of Israel?

358
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,640
There's there was probably 1
like why you know, if, if if

359
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,360
Jesus the, the inheritance was
given to Jesus and Israel was

360
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:50,400
his and you know Israel's gods
like I don't think there would

361
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,240
be multiple Princess over
Israel.

362
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,480
Yeah, because it sucks that
Michael's one of the chief

363
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,080
Princess, but you would go back
to that passage and Deuteronomy

364
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,240
or something like that that
talks about all of these

365
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,480
Princess.
Yeah, I was just looking that

366
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,120
up.
It's like. 32. 32, yeah.

367
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,600
Yeah.
But yeah, so maybe we should

368
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,800
briefly talk about the watchers
the the word that is used.

369
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,000
Is that an Enoch?
That's an Enoch, but it's also

370
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,680
in the Bible one time.
I think it's also in in Daniel.

371
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,040
I think it is.
Daniel, Yeah.

372
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,840
But and this wasn't, this was
how I grew up.

373
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,080
Like it wasn't like it was like
Thunder dawn.

374
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,400
But you know that when we went
through Daniel, we talked about

375
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,920
it.
Basically we were taught that it

376
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,600
seems clear that different
geographical regions of the

377
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,320
earth have maybe a good Angel
and a bad Angel.

378
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,480
That's we just call them angels.
Maybe, you know, if you want to

379
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,280
get specific, because there are
orders of non physical beings,

380
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,280
we might use the term the Enoch
or the Bible uses watchers kind

381
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,800
of like a higher level non
visible being.

382
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,160
I'll try to not because Angel
just means messenger.

383
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,440
So we know like Gabriel was an
Angel, he was a messenger.

384
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,440
And we sometimes people think of
Gabriel as an Archangel, but it

385
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,880
might be that he's one of the
lower level angels and it is

386
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,040
just a messenger.
And so the idea is, you know, if

387
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,600
you had the Prince of Persia
where Daniel was, who was like,

388
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,800
who was like holding Daniel,
like not not allowing this other

389
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:31,160
messenger to send this message.
Michael has to come in and like,

390
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,760
say, Prince Persia.
No, we're going to let this

391
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,120
message.
In are there alternate views on

392
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:38,800
like what the Prince of Persia
is there like another like oh,

393
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,840
it's just like a a demon that
was like trying to help Persia

394
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,520
or is it pretty universally like
geographically Prince here I I

395
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,040
haven't heard like other
explanations.

396
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,320
Before, yeah, I would.
Assume there are other

397
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,600
explanations, but I haven't
heard them.

398
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,920
I mean, I think that there's I
think they just is it.

399
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,840
I think it's in Daniel too.
They describe like in great

400
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,720
detail, like some of the
attributes of the of this being

401
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,400
or other beings like this, and
it seems very angelic and and

402
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,520
type like not.
I don't know how you would

403
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,880
describe it as like a person or,
you know, you know, and not to

404
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:13,960
go against something that you
said.

405
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,840
I think, I think Angel, I think
we a lot of people just use

406
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,520
Angel to describe spiritual
beings.

407
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,840
Any and I think that even saying
spiritual being.

408
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,520
I don't know if that's also a
good representation because I

409
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,680
think that there's a physicality
to what we deem as a spiritual

410
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:29,880
realm.
You know it.

411
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,640
I don't.
I think saying non physical also

412
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,720
might not be 100% accurate
because because there's there's

413
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,040
plenty of times in the Bible
where the angels did physical

414
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,240
things.
They were physical places.

415
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,280
They went, they went places.
I think this one was even

416
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,040
hindered by the Prince of Persia
or whatever.

417
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:45,920
Like there's physicalities are
going on.

418
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,680
I just think we, I think that
sometimes, like you hear Angel,

419
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,760
you always think the same thing.
But you know, I think there's a

420
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,960
hierarchy that we don't know.
Like I think in the Bible talks

421
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,600
about seraphim and cherubim and
angels and demons.

422
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,640
And like, I think there's a lot
more potential hierarchy in the

423
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,800
spiritual realm than than what
we we hear about or think about.

424
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,760
You get just that hint too, with
like rulers authority or like

425
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,000
you like you like don't know
what the hierarchy is, but

426
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,040
sometimes it's like, it's like.
Principalities.

427
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,680
Principalities and powers.
Like a principality means ruler,

428
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,600
a ruler over over something
physical like.

429
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,360
So yeah, there's that too.
I just feel like the Prince of

430
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:26,920
Persia in this, you know, got
like the the whoever is supposed

431
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,240
to be coming to Daniel, like in
an armbar or something, you

432
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,560
know, and it's like wrestling.
Yeah, I do.

433
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,480
I do like what you said, Clay,
about the physical nature of it

434
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,120
because yeah, there it's like it
is very confusing to talk about.

435
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:39,800
We don't have great categories
for it.

436
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,640
Yeah, I, I don't know, like
maybe and maybe that is

437
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,520
anthropomorphous.
It will.

438
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,520
For us to understand but there
is something that we don't

439
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,400
understand about how they.
Work.

440
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,280
Sorry.
I think.

441
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,240
I think you're right too.
I was just trying to think like,

442
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,320
I don't know, it's like, yeah,
the Angel of the Lord is like

443
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,960
sitting under a Myrtle tree or
something, or you know what I

444
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:02,480
mean?
It's like.

445
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,080
We wrestled with Jacob.
And we wrestled and so it's like

446
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,920
some of that and but then this
not so.

447
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,120
But I know what you're saying.
This could be, this might not be

448
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,920
like, oh, it was like WWE and
we're jumping from the top rope.

449
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,960
It's like it might be like
different than that.

450
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,520
Right.
Well, yeah, just to be clear

451
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,800
from what I'm saying, when we
see angels like the three angels

452
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,000
that show up to Abraham and
Sarah, one of them is the Angel

453
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,360
of the Lord and he cooks for
them.

454
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:31,560
Clearly they have taken on a
physical manifestation for our

455
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,040
world.
And I'm not discounting that at

456
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,240
all.
Clearly physical.

457
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,640
When the Angel of the Lord
wrestles with Jacob, then to

458
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,560
soon to become Israel physical.
So yeah, definitely I'm just

459
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,600
saying, and I don't know, like
it seems like we don't fully

460
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,600
understand that spiritual realm.
Do they use physical language so

461
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,840
that we can kind of understand
it or is it truly fit some type

462
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,840
of different phys physicality?
I don't know, maybe we don't

463
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,760
know yet.
So I think it's maybe a.

464
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,040
Nice question.
We could get into like a more

465
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,240
scientific discussion about I've
heard I've heard it discussed

466
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,080
like there another, it's another
dimensional dimension.

467
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,880
Like if you I've heard the
analogy, like if you if you look

468
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,040
at a 2D object and you know S3D
beings, we know what that is.

469
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,360
But if you look at, you know if
it's.

470
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,120
A 3D doesn't understand 3D.
Right.

471
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:18,840
And it's kind of it could be the
same thing.

472
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,040
They could be a 4th, 5th so.
There's a tesseract dimension.

473
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,600
Multi multidimensional.
OK, alright.

474
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,320
He's now he's tracking.
That's good.

475
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,120
But Dad, you said words.
I don't know what they mean.

476
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,000
Let's keep moving along on the
outline where I'm, I'm, I'm, I

477
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,080
don't know.
I don't skip over anything.

478
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,960
Where were we at?
Well, we read through, well, we

479
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,760
read through the Old Testament
passages of Michael and we

480
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,920
probably should read through the
New Testament and then maybe go

481
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,480
for the arguments to pro and
against.

482
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,160
Does that sound good?
I love it so that we have one

483
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,400
reference in Jude and I think
this one kind of cuts a little

484
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,800
bit against it being Christ.
But it says, but Michael the

485
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,560
Archangel, when he disputed with
the devil and argued about the

486
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,480
body of Moses, did not dare
pronounce against him a railing

487
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,360
judgment, but said the Lord
rebuke you.

488
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,880
I mean, I think if you were, you
know, strong that it is Christ,

489
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,440
you'd be like, well, he's just
saying, you know, my father

490
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,760
rebuke you.
It does seem odd that you know,

491
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,320
if he is God the son that he
would have to say the Lord

492
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,520
rebuke you.
But you know, there's that, that

493
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,760
passage.
And then lastly, Revelation 712,

494
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,640
seven through 9 says now war
arose in heaven, Michael and his

495
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,800
angels fighting against the
dragon, and the dragon and his

496
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,240
angels fought back, but he was
defeated, and there was no

497
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,080
longer any place for them in
heaven.

498
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,320
And the great dragon was thrown
down, the that ancient serpent

499
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,120
who is called the devil, and
Satan the deceiver of the whole

500
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:54,560
world, he was thrown down to the
earth, and his angels were

501
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,800
thrown down with him.
Perfect I am.

502
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,320
I think I'm on.
I think I have the wrong outline

503
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:03,160
of them.
I'm trying to find this.

504
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,080
Here do you have the one that
says Michael Mechazdeck in

505
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,360
Christ?
Let's see.

506
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,080
I do.
I'm just I'm missing.

507
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,200
We're are we?
I'm at the.

508
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:14,360
I'm at the top.
We're not at the.

509
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:15,880
Top anymore.
Yeah, yeah, we're at the top.

510
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,600
I was on another.
I was on the one that Clay gave

511
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,080
us that just had all the verses.
Gotcha.

512
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,840
Sorry, sorry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

513
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,640
All right.
So given those verses, what I

514
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,480
did, what any self respecting
Bible scholar would do, he would

515
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,200
have a long drawn out argument
with you at GPT club it and then

516
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,040
have ChatGPT summarize an
argument.

517
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,000
So that's that's is the outline
that we we have here.

518
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:44,840
I do.
I do that often.

519
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:48,400
So here we go.
So these were some of the things

520
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,240
that ChatGPT and I discussed,
and they're going to fall in

521
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,680
line with what was on the
podcast, clearly.

522
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,640
So the question is, is Michael
the Archangel, the angelical

523
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,480
representation of Christ?
Like is it Christ by a different

524
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,600
title where I read those key
verses?

525
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,200
Daniel 1013, Daniel 12 one.
That's why you skipped Daniel

526
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,360
10. 21 Oh yeah.
Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry,

527
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:17,320
sorry.
So so we could consider this, is

528
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,560
Michael protecting Israel also
aligning with Christ's role as

529
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,240
the King of Israel?
One place calls him the Prince

530
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,960
of Princess and the Shepherd of
Israel.

531
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,200
So all kind of sharing that same
role that Michael the Archangel

532
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,200
had that we saw there.
That's good.

533
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,560
Also I see here when you I think
he made this pointless guy,

534
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,720
whatever his name was in the
podcast was like sons inherit

535
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,200
things like that was the the
sonship was an important part of

536
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,000
his argument too, which I
thought was a pretty pretty

537
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,480
interesting argument.
On the other side of things,

538
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,440
Michael is called a Prince
whenever a king.

539
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,640
I don't I don't think that's a
good opposing argument.

540
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,120
Whereas Christ is explicitly
cling.

541
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:01,520
I guess that explicit
connection, I don't know, I'm

542
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,320
not to me, I'm like that.
That's not a good.

543
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,720
Opposing argument.
I mean, the Princess eventually

544
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,280
become kings, right?
Yeah.

545
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,560
So I, I don't, I don't know what
chat's what chat was thinking

546
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:11,600
there.
I guess he was looking for that

547
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,760
one to one connection.
The word Prince in Hebrew often

548
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,920
refers to high-ranking angels,
not divine beings.

549
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,760
Again, I don't think that's a
great, great one because this is

550
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,760
a a unique situation.
You know what I mean?

551
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:28,160
And then I think this is a good
one to to talk about Hebrews one

552
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,760
separate.
The whole point is really

553
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,640
pushing back against Christ
being an ordinary Angel that

554
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,360
obviously we're not saying
Michael be an ordinary Angel,

555
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,880
making it unlikely that he would
be called one of the cheap

556
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,640
Princess.
Even that might be technically

557
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,800
right.
It'd be weird to say Michael's

558
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,280
in the top 10.
Why wouldn't you say, oh, this,

559
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:47,720
you know, he's better than that,
but.

560
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:50,480
But that could also go against
kind of what we were saying

561
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,920
earlier, is the hierarchy of
things like he's not an Angel,

562
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,120
he's not a messenger, but the
Prince is the angelic or the

563
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,720
spiritual Princess.
These beings are higher than

564
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,400
the.
Angels there.

565
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,680
It's like one of these 10 kings
of the earth or something is

566
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,800
what they.
Say the 70, the 70 that were put

567
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,440
over the nations in Deuteronomy.
And just for reference, here's

568
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,400
that Hebrews passage.
It says for to which of the

569
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,920
angels did he ever say, you are
my son today I have begotten you

570
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,880
and again I will be a father to
him and he shall be a son to me.

571
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:30,840
So that those that's that's
clearly no mere Angel rises the

572
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,680
level as Christ.
So I think that's a strong

573
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,200
verse, but I think Chet kind of
misunderstands Clay because

574
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,520
we're not saying he's a mere
Angel.

575
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,800
We're saying that maybe he
manifested himself in an angelic

576
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,200
form as one of these supreme
watchers over Israel.

577
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,920
Yeah, I think because what
you're saying to Clay is like

578
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040
it, it it, it easily could have
said the Prince of Persia, one

579
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,960
of the chief Princess.
It would just be the same kind

580
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,080
of disclaimer for everyone who's
in that in that certain role.

581
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,440
All right, moving on.
Christ as king of Israel

582
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,800
probably don't have to look too
far or that's probably not

583
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,920
sounding like a weird, a weird
claim.

584
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,880
You know, John one talks about
this.

585
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,240
Nathaniel calling out to Jesus,
calls Jesus the son of God, the

586
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,360
king of Israel.
We see something very similar in

587
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,920
Matthew 21, that Jesus is the
heir of Israel.

588
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,240
And I guess the argument goes
like this.

589
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,240
If Jesus inherits Israel,
Michael's the Prince of Israel.

590
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,400
Like you were saying, Clay, this
suggests that you know there's

591
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,840
same thing, maybe different
rules.

592
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,560
Principle I think multiple
Princess would be weird, like

593
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,800
over the same place like.
Well, then we do have Prince

594
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,400
Henry and Prince William, right?
Both of those.

595
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,040
And you have the artist formerly
known as Prince Different.

596
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:51,600
Prince and of Bel Air.
So that guy was fresh.

597
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:57,760
So that's well done.
So then opposing arguments.

598
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,200
This again, these were chats
opposing arguments.

599
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,400
So these this is not what I came
up with myself.

600
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,320
It would be nice.
And I'm assuming Chad is pulling

601
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,920
from other sources.
So maybe there's some theologian

602
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,360
who wrote something like this,
but maybe chats thinking on his

603
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,800
own, I don't know.
A Prince serves a king.

604
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,240
Michael is Israel's garden, but
Christ is its ruler.

605
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,600
So this idea that there's this
hierarchy and we're talking,

606
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,120
we're talking about a Prince or
a SAR being a high Angel, but

607
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,960
not necessarily a Prince like a
Prince graduating to a king is

608
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,160
one way to look at that.
And if Christ is the unseated

609
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,200
son of the uncreated Son of God,
not one of many angelic

610
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,520
principles.
Kind of going back to what you

611
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,560
were saying as one of many.
Yeah, and that that Prince King

612
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,320
argument, I don't think I think
that's a super strong argument.

613
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,120
I think I think some of this is
confusing too, just like, you

614
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,000
know, if there's God the Father,
God the Son, I think you can

615
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,880
read into that and be like,
well, there's a father son, so

616
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,720
there's less authority with the
Son or something like that.

617
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,600
You know what I mean?
I think you could erroneously

618
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,800
kind of think that way.
It's a different category than

619
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,320
we're used to sometimes.
Yeah, the the Trinity with the

620
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,880
Father, Son, Holy Spirit, like
all being the same, all being

621
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,320
different.
Like the Prince of Israel, the

622
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,040
king of, you know, Israel, like
all being the same but

623
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,400
different.
Potentially there could be some

624
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,920
parallels there too.
That, that, that's interesting.

625
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,720
Next point, Christ's return and
the archangel's voice.

626
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,160
Again.
If you're in Christendom almost

627
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,040
at all, you know, there's gonna
be the voice of an Archangel.

628
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,400
It's gonna be like booming like
a, it's like, I don't think that

629
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,080
is very, that's not something
that people are like, well, I've

630
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,760
never heard that before.
Very, very common.

631
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,400
First Thessalonians 416 says the
Lord himself will descend from

632
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,520
heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the Archangel and with

633
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,600
the trumpet of God.
So this would fit very nicely.

634
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,520
You know, if these were the same
things that that would kind of

635
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,280
work itself out.
Yeah, it almost seems like, you

636
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,640
know, chat wanted in my
conversation, wanted to push

637
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,120
that these were three separate
things.

638
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,000
But it almost sounds like it's 3
descriptions of the same thing.

639
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,280
You know, it's a shout, it's a
voice of an Archangel, it's a

640
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,000
trumpet.
It's like all those things.

641
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,280
Like it's a call to battle.
And the trumpets were known for,

642
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,240
you know, marshaling troops in
on into battle.

643
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,600
So to me, this sounds like this
is all the same thing.

644
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,160
Now, is it Christ himself
shouting or is it Michael

645
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,800
shouting on behalf?
That would be the the the back

646
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,600
and forth.
Yeah, I think you want to say

647
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,760
there, Clay.
Yeah, I, I think that, you know,

648
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,840
and this and this scene also,
what we read earlier is that

649
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,720
Michael is fighting against
Satan.

650
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,960
Michael.
And you know, I know a lot of

651
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,200
people necessarily don't believe
the Book of Enoch, but the Book

652
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,560
of Enoch also talks about
Michael is the one that goes and

653
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,480
binds all the watchers that cast
them in the shield like this.

654
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,480
This is the the.
Is that Enoch one or Enoch 2

655
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,240
Enoch?
I I believe it's Enoch one, it

656
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,520
might be two, but I think it's
one when the 200 watchers are

657
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,040
bound and thrown in the shield
like there, it only takes one

658
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,080
arcange.
It only takes Michael to go do

659
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,040
it.
So it's a pretty powerful

660
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,240
hierarchy hierarchical.
Being always knew, if you got

661
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,320
the name Michael, you're pretty.
You're pretty high up there.

662
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,760
You thought that?
I always thought the opposite.

663
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,760
No, I'm just, I'm just kidding.
Obviously very high up there.

664
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,280
He was like, great.
Name.

665
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,840
That's right.
Yeah, that's great, Great name.

666
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,920
Do we want to hit somebody
affirming opposing what house

667
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,520
we?
Want to talk through those?

668
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,600
That's unless you see anything
there that's that's new.

669
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,320
Now, I think that that makes a
lot of sense.

670
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Moving on.
This is a good test because,

671
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,640
again, if you're a Christian,
you know, angels say don't

672
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:43,760
worship.
No, no, get up, get up.

673
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,400
That's like a common thing too,
right?

674
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,720
John Man had a bad record twice.
I think he fell down and angels

675
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,400
like, no, get up, get up.
Yeah, cool.

676
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,400
So let's look at some some of
these verses.

677
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,200
If you were in Revelation, I
just happened to be here

678
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,320
Revelation 19 verse 10, like you
were saying Michael, then I,

679
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,280
John fell down at his feet to
worship him.

680
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,920
But he said to me, you must not
do that.

681
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,199
I'm a fellow servant with you
and your brothers who hold to

682
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,560
the testimony of Jesus, worship
God for the testimony of Jesus.

683
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,719
Is the spirit of prophecy
something similar later on,

684
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,760
later on where angels, if
they're good angels, if they're

685
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,080
serving the serving Yahweh,
they're going to refuse worship.

686
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,159
We all know Christ accepts
worship as well in the gospels.

687
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,760
That's also not a super big
surprise and.

688
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,360
We know that the Angel of the
Lord accepted worship.

689
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,520
And and that's big.
And so I think a lot of it's

690
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,400
Angel of the Lord God the sun.
We see this perils clearly

691
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,840
because of that too.
So the question is, do we see

692
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,920
anyone ever bowing down and
those versions we read and

693
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,840
worshipping Michael?
It's just we don't have a lot of

694
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,199
text.
So it's not saying right, you

695
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,400
know, but it's like, man, be
nice if like one of those verses

696
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,960
that snuck it in there, right?
Like Dan is like, oh, and then I

697
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,800
worshipped Michael and he
accepted it and great, problem

698
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:54,800
solved.
That'd be awesome.

699
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,160
Or I worship Michael and he's
like no, give up, I'm a fellow

700
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,080
servant either.
Wait, it would clear.

701
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,880
Either clear it up.
But we it's just we don't have

702
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,840
anyone trying to worship Michael
recorded.

703
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,600
So we we just don't know.
So all right, divine counsel in

704
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,680
Deuteronomy 32 eight.
This is the passage we were

705
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,240
referring to earlier, talking
about the sons of God.

706
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,040
Or is it the sons of Israel?
Don't know.

707
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,360
We don't know.
Yeah, well.

708
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:26,040
Please.
Like, no, we know.

709
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:28,960
Tell us.
Tell us how we know, Clay.

710
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,040
Well, the I think the best
argument is the Dead Sea Scrolls

711
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:39,160
that were found had had that,
you know that scripture that

712
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,720
they found it had that part.
And it says sons of God, not

713
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:45,440
sons of.
Israel and the Septuagint also

714
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,160
says sons of God, right?
And the Septuagint also does.

715
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:54,120
So what was up with those first
and 2nd century rabbis change in

716
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,520
scripture on us?
Do you think it was because they

717
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:03,120
were trying to write out
anything spiritual about and and

718
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:06,320
and disclaim Christ?
I think Doug brings us up in the

719
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,320
podcast and I think it's AI
think it's a good point.

720
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,120
I think it's it makes sense if
they if they were regretful of

721
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,120
crucifying God, they're like,
OK, we got to cover up this huge

722
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,200
wrong that we just did.
We accidentally killed the

723
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,440
Messiah.
We got to fix it like we got to

724
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,960
erase everything that that shows
that we did the wrong thing.

725
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:26,960
And I think that that I think
that this might have just got

726
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:34,720
caught up in that aspect of it.
Because Christ references this,

727
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:36,840
right?
Doesn't he say and all says

728
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,200
you're sons of God, why are you
picking up stones?

729
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,200
He makes some comment.
Maybe it's not this first, it's

730
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,000
exactly maybe because it's like
he calls you gods.

731
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,840
Maybe I'm maybe I'm thinking of
a different reference, but

732
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:56,080
regardless, so we have this the
sons of God and Israel's garden,

733
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,960
Deuteronomy 32 eight.
Do you return in there?

734
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:03,840
I, I, I am hammering from the
ESV so I will read how the ESV

735
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,440
reads it.
Deuteronomy 32 eight says when

736
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,240
the Most High gave to the
nations their inheritance, when

737
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:14,560
he divided mankind, he fixed the
borders of the peoples according

738
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,160
to the numbers of the sons of
God.

739
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,280
A little footnote.
The Dead Sea Scroll compared

740
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,480
with that compared Septuagint
Masoretic Text.

741
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,560
Sons of Israel.
Yeah.

742
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,200
So NASB, this is I think a fault
of NASB.

743
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,320
They just, they just hold that
Masoretic text.

744
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,040
They don't look at Septuagint
or.

745
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,640
I think the NIV might say Sons
of Israel too.

746
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,440
I think the ESV was one of the
few.

747
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,040
There's not too many that
changed.

748
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,640
It changed.
It we're not saying that your

749
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,280
Old Testament is riddled with
errors.

750
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,760
Like there's just a handful of
these places where they made

751
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,960
maybe one, one word changes and
you can, you can look them up.

752
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,400
They're known to scholars.
So you can trust your Bible and

753
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,040
it and it's like these obscure
things that that they change

754
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,280
here and there.
I think there's a couple in the

755
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,440
Psalms as well that they change.
But reading, if you don't mind,

756
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,320
let's read verse 9 too, says,
but the Lord's portion of his

757
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,400
people, Jacob, has a lot of
inheritance.

758
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,760
So that kind of goes to the
Michael, the Prince of Israel

759
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,720
kind of thing.
Like Doug was saying that a lot

760
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,800
of people gloss over #9 you
know, when it says that there

761
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:24,400
was one given to it, Israel.
No, I I am glad that you

762
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,560
mentioned that because I
remember him saying that but

763
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,880
then I did.
I never found.

764
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,080
And then he glossed over it.
And then I glossed over it.

765
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,760
No, I never found it's.
Because the sons of God in verse

766
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,200
8 is so shocking to so many
people, they just don't even

767
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,680
think about verse 9.
But yeah.

768
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,360
So for the Lord's OK, so let's
just read it all together.

769
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,440
When the Most High give the
nation's their inheritance, when

770
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,440
he separated the sons of man, he
set boundaries of the peoples

771
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:57,320
according to the number of the
sons of of God for the Lord's

772
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,160
portion is his people.
Jacob is the allotment of his

773
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,480
inheritance.
So I think what you're saying,

774
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,360
the argument is these were all
separated.

775
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,600
They're given out to different
watchers and Israel was given to

776
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,560
Yahweh because that's the, it's
the proper name of God there.

777
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:20,320
And so and, and then I would
read in Daniel that Michael is

778
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,680
the Prince of Israel.
So what does it mean for Michael

779
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,960
to be the watcher, who's the
Prince of Israel and for Israel

780
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,600
to be given to Yahweh?
Are those the same being with

781
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,240
different names that I think
it's a compelling?

782
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,120
Argument yeah, I think it makes
sense.

783
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,640
I wish there was like more, but
that that when you synthesize

784
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,720
some of that there's there's
it's not like I think on its

785
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:46,200
face it could sound really
weird.

786
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,040
Michael.
Yeah, it's like, no, no, he

787
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,080
there are connections here in
Scripture where someone says

788
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,640
that it's not.
It's it's based in, in some

789
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,120
really, really strong, strong
evidence.

790
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,320
I think, I think it's the
throwing, I think it's the it's,

791
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,040
it's a proper name as it's
throwing people off.

792
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,280
You know, we, you know, cause
'cause when we with the other

793
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,520
places in the Bible of
Christophanes or where it's

794
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,360
Jesus, like Angel of the Lord,
the name of the Lord, like

795
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,160
different things like that.
It's not a name.

796
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600
I think that us as English
Americans, like we, we see this

797
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,120
name, we think of individual
beings, you know, But when

798
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,480
you're when, when it's referred
to him as as God, like has

799
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,600
multiple names for the same
being, when we see the proper

800
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,280
name, I think it throws us off.
All right, next argument,

801
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,960
Christ's superiority over the
angels.

802
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,000
So we see a distinction between
Christ and the angels in Hebrews

803
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,920
1.
So we already read this one.

804
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,600
God never calls any of his
angels my Son.

805
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,960
No Angel is invited to sit at
God's right hand.

806
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,840
So if Michael is a title for
Christ, then this would not

807
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,520
contradict Hebrews 1 because
Christ would not be a created

808
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,800
Angel, but simply acting in an
angelical role or in that realm

809
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,120
that the the that the watchers
are acting.

810
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,680
And this was one of the key
opposing things that that Chad

811
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,280
just couldn't get over when we
were talking.

812
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,600
He's like, OK, all right, Chad,
but he he's like, I don't think

813
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,280
that Michael could be Christ
because it says to none of the

814
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,480
angels have I, but we recognize
Angel of the Lord.

815
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,200
So I think it cuts against this.
Argument that I think that's

816
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,040
probably the best one where it's
like people see that connection

817
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,120
and so it's like a clearly
that's a different category.

818
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,600
So let's that's a good segue
too.

819
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,200
Let's talk about the Angel of
the Lord and its implication for

820
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,360
Michael the Archangel because
like I said, there's like 60

821
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,280
verses to talk about Angel Lord
that that's all over the place.

822
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,400
Like you mentioned some of them
Angel Lord appears to Hagar

823
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,040
Angel Lord speaks from the
burning Bush.

824
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,440
I think some people miss miss
that Manoa and his wife Samson

825
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,120
encounter talks Samson's family
talks about the Angel of the

826
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,440
Lord and all these times you see
this connection when this is

827
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,680
God, not a.
Mere Angel, Yeah.

828
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,200
Yeah.
So it's really weird, you know,

829
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,560
when the first time I remember
hearing this, oh, the Angel of

830
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,600
the Lord is Christ.
But then you could look at it.

831
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:15,000
I think it's overly abundant.
That Angel of the Lord is

832
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:22,480
Yahweh, is Christophany.
So then it makes this transition

833
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,400
to Michael the Arc Angel, and
he's the only one that ever has

834
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,120
that title.
There's no other Angel that has

835
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,440
Arc with it, right?
Is that right?

836
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,200
That's a great question.
I think that's right.

837
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,040
I think he's the only one.
Yeah, so again, you know, like

838
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,680
if we had fifty other angels and
he was the only one that had

839
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,400
that title, then we could be
like, Oh yeah, there's clearly

840
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,600
something different about
Michael.

841
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:50,440
It would, but scripture just
does not have a lot of those

842
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,320
references.
Yeah, yeah.

843
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,400
I just just back checking us
there only place in Scripture so

844
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,960
that that does give a little
more credibility to the argument

845
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,040
too.
Yeah, anything else you want to

846
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,960
add for this one?
Clay I'll, I'll plug Doctor

847
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,000
Michael Hyzer's book The Unseen
Realms that that was one of my

848
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,400
favorite parts of the book is he
he spends a lot of time going

849
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,720
through the Angel of the Lord,
the different names found in the

850
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:20,720
Old Testament, like proving God
being the trinitarian or other,

851
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,520
you know, shown in different
places in physical form or non

852
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,480
physical form at the same time
in it throughout Scripture.

853
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,200
It was it was one of my favorite
parts of the book.

854
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,280
So.
Very cool, very cool.

855
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,240
Awesome implications.
So like, where does this matter?

856
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,920
Where is this take us?
What's what's the point?

857
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,880
What you know, what's all of
this mean if in fact the Angel

858
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,360
of the Lord is the preincarnate
Christ.

859
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,600
Like what do we, what do we do
with this kind of stuff when it

860
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,280
as it relates to Michael?
Yeah, this is a good question.

861
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,800
There are some angels that are
called the chosen angels.

862
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,840
We could, you could translate
that as the elect angels.

863
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,960
I don't know that I subscribe to
this.

864
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,040
I know that Michael Van Dorn and
there was another guest that was

865
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,320
on Blurry Creatures.
He I think he was all about

866
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:15,800
angels having a redemption plan.
So I what I've told my kids in

867
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,760
the past is I don't think
there's a redemption plan

868
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,920
because Christ didn't show up as
an Angel.

869
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:27,920
This might Yeah, I you know, I
struggle for words like because

870
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,080
you're just it's really like you
kind of get further and further

871
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:38,200
out on supposition like if this
is Christ and somehow at the

872
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:43,120
cross or another time he, you
know, paid the penalty for

873
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,080
angels, then there may be, but
we don't have any record of that

874
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,480
in the Bible, right.
So I wouldn't and I don't know

875
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,680
how it affects how I live on a
day-to-day basis.

876
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:56,840
And even if Michael is Christ
did that fact, although I don't

877
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,760
know how it affects me on a
day-to-day basis.

878
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,400
It's just maybe it helps me
understand a little bit more of

879
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,760
how God ordered things and how.
That's good.

880
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,240
How things are coming around to,
OK, here is this Prince of

881
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,320
Israel, he was strong and now
not only does he inherit maybe

882
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,640
on the physical realm, but he
also inherits on the spiritual

883
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,840
realm.
Maybe there's that going on.

884
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,360
I don't know.
Anything else that you thought

885
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,120
of as practical implications for
us, Clay?

886
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:28,160
No, I think that maybe we talked
about that once before.

887
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,040
Is, is the, you know, some kind
of redemption plan for angels?

888
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,280
I think that, like you said,
that's kind of we're getting

889
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,400
really out there, you know,
suppositions.

890
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:37,720
Yeah, yeah.
And and that doesn't really

891
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:40,520
affect us.
Like there could be something.

892
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,280
There could not be something.
But Jesus coming to save us is

893
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,920
what's the most important thing,
right?

894
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,880
And, you know, it's seeing.
I think, I think it's neat

895
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,440
seeing him as Michael in other
places because Michael's the one

896
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,680
that bound Satan or fight Satan.
Michael's the one that bound the

897
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,600
Watchers, like Michael 5, the
Prince of Persia.

898
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,000
Like that, to me just makes the
story more full and more, you

899
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,880
know, more detailed, I think.
Yeah, that.

900
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,480
That's cool.
Anything else you have to say?

901
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,480
No, I I think you nailed it both
you all.

902
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,240
Right, so the final conclusion,
so this these were chat's

903
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:15,920
highest ranked arguments before
and against.

904
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,640
So we you get your take from
him.

905
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,960
So Chad thinks that the best
arguments for what we're talking

906
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,800
about is Michael is the guardian
of Israel.

907
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,000
Christ is the king and inheritor
of Israel, potentially different

908
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,840
roles of the same being.
Christ ascends with the voice of

909
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,080
an Archangel, which could
suggest he speaks as Michael.

910
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,960
Daniel 12/1 links Michael's rise
with the resurrection, aligning

911
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,520
with Christ's role in John 5828
and other places.

912
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:46,120
I think maybe Deuteronomy 32
nine would also go up here as

913
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,840
one of those the the better
arguments for this going on

914
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,760
there.
Anything to add to those

915
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,040
statements?
I, I think that I think there's

916
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,400
a really good, I'm trying to
trying to reflect for me.

917
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,520
I'm like, I don't, I would not
stake my life on this, but I

918
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,600
think there are some good
foundational points for what we

919
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,200
have.
And and then on the other side

920
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,480
of it, on the I mean, my biggest
concerns were man, that one of

921
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,640
the chief Princess just weird
reads weird to me.

922
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,240
But we discussed there there.
That's not like a end all be all

923
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,800
Hebrews one, but you know,
Angel, the Lord stuff.

924
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,240
Those are like my push backs
that I originally, but you know,

925
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,360
that's not dogmatic either.
I think it's very, very

926
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:26,000
plausible.
It's just something with there's

927
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,840
not a lot of text on it.
So we don't spend a lot of time

928
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,720
talking about it, but I think I
think there's some good stuff

929
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:33,480
there.
Are you going to start praying

930
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,680
to Michael?
That's a no no bueno, no no.

931
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,840
Yes, I don't think I would
reorder my worship or how I'm

932
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,960
thinking of Christ based on
this.

933
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,200
I think it's like, oh, that
maybe there's something that we

934
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,640
missed there, but like you said,
I don't know how huge it

935
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,000
impacts.
I would say one of my strongest

936
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,840
arguments against is the Jude
verse where it says, but Michael

937
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,800
wouldn't raise a railing
accusation against Satan, but

938
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,440
instead the Lord rebuke you.
That seems odd if if he is God

939
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,240
the son and if and if Enoch is
right that Michael bound all the

940
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:14,480
other watchers like why wouldn't
he bound bind Satan?

941
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:15,880
You know, so I don't know.
I don't know.

942
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,080
Well, yeah, there's there's
speculation that Satan is the

943
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,280
one that convinced all the
Watchers to do what they did.

944
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,760
And so he he didn't really do
it.

945
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,560
He got them to agree to a
covenant amongst themselves to

946
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,800
to go down and mess and mess
with humanity.

947
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,440
And so he kind of was like the
deceiver to them as well.

948
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,720
So he wasn't, he didn't directly
do anything, so that's why he

949
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:40,240
didn't.
Get bound.

950
00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:42,360
Do you know what I just heard?
I heard another podcast is

951
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,480
coming down the down the Pike.
Well, you know, and even.

952
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,320
I would love the Book of Enoch
I.

953
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:48,480
That's a.
That's a fun one.

954
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,680
Yeah, and the probably another
podcast on Satan.

955
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:54,600
Yeah, that would be.
Good.

956
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,000
There was some, there was some
episodes there that talked

957
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,760
about, you know, Satan really
isn't a name.

958
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:01,920
It's a title.
The accuser.

959
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,000
And Serpent has some various
meanings to.

960
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,680
Like tear, like kill every
serpent or something.

961
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,000
I think it makes her bad.
I'm just kidding.

962
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,400
Michael likes.
Me, I could be wrong, but the

963
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:17,360
Hebrew word is nakash, which I
think is more I I, you know, we

964
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,320
can get into this more in the
future, but it's more of a, a

965
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,320
seraphim, a serpent like dragon
being not not necessarily a

966
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,840
snake, right?
Yeah, snakes get a bad rap,

967
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:27,520
right?
I don't.

968
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,720
Think they get a bad enough rap?
And so, you know, there, there

969
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,680
are some people, godly people, I
think they're godly people who

970
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,280
suppose that this title has been
occupied by more than one

971
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,520
watcher.
It's not, it's not the same one.

972
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,200
Like there was one and then Baal
took his place.

973
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,840
And so then maybe Baal went and
became Zeus or Jupiter.

974
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,840
So something like that.
That is an interesting

975
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,880
discussion.
Again, at the end of the day,

976
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,000
it's not not going to hugely
impact your walk with Christ on

977
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,520
a day-to-day basis, but it's but
it may be helping you see some

978
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,680
things that are hinted at in the
Scripture that we don't get all

979
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,880
the full fullness of.
So.

980
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,720
I love it, my clay.
Any last things about this

981
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:12,040
topic?
Thanks for bringing this to

982
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:13,680
lights.
I think it's very, very

983
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,600
fascinating.
Yeah, no, I appreciate you guys

984
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,360
discussing it.
I think it's just it was neat to

985
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,880
to study and look at so.
Awesome.

986
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,040
Well, without further ado, close
this out my friend.

987
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,200
I think that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

988
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,400
Two.
Find us wherever you find

989
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,920
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

990
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:33,600
video cast.