Cartesian vs Hylomorphic Dualism

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All right, New Year and I happen
to be the worship leader.

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This the first I think that we
were back and I think it happens

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every year because we go away,
we celebrate Christmas in

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Arkansas with our family there
and then I come back and you all

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have just celebrated Christmas
at CBC.

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But it's like I just need a
little bit of closure.

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So I, I kind of talked a little
bit about Christmas and then the

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new year in there.
But say all that to say, we're

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kind of away, you know, by the
time this is going to air, this

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will come away from Christmas.
A little bit, yeah, But I was

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thinking, what do you, what do
you think?

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We don't never mind.
I was like, what are you doing

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right now?
You're probably in the blinds.

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I'm just kidding.
No, no, no.

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So this will be a week after.
So the one that will hit while

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we're in the blinds will be the
new year, the actual New Year's.

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Yeah, yeah.
So a week, Yeah.

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Yeah, 'cause we're leaving soon,
yeah.

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Soon, yeah.
We're recording this, Yeah.

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The Tuesday before we're about
to head out in the cold weather,

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Yeah.
Anyway, so.

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You wanted to, so you kind of
got some Christmas gifts, but

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you also have maybe a not so
Christmas gift.

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If this was not a Christmas
gift, my Prius died.

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I actually really my Prius was a
gift for my parents.

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I don't think he ever would have
bought one.

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But then once I had one for
free, I was like this is pretty

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nice.
Got great gas mileage 50 miles a

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gallon.
That thing was I did not make it

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to 200,000 miles.
I was like at 198.

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I was gonna ride that thing,
drive that thing forever.

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It still.
Looked like it was in pretty

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good condition other than the
little the flappy thing that you

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hit on a bumper but.
Honestly the battery was still

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good.
It was like the brakes, some ABS

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controller, whatever it was like
gonna be expensive based on what

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it was worth.
It was a 2013 high mileage.

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So I hear you're like, so we've
started playing D&D and some

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people think that's a cult, but
it's not really.

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But I hear you joined an actual
cult.

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So it's about a cult.
Yeah, well, I went car shopping

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and everything's expensive and I
was like, man, I could really

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splurge and get a Civic or I
could just get a, or I could get

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a Tesla for cheaper.
So I, I got, I got a little

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Model 3 Tesla courtesy of some
government tax credits, which

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was nice, you know, knocking the
price down by 4 grand.

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But it's just, you know, I was
just, I was in, I was just in

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shock.
Honda, Honda's retained their

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value, man.
And I was actually going to get

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a Prius.
And then I was like, oh, those

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are way too expensive.
And so I was like, I can get a

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Corolla or a Model 3 Tesla.
I'll try the Tesla.

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Mainly if you talk to Clay
Thrower for more than 6 seconds,

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I just had a million reasons
like it'd be dumb not to get a

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Tesla.
He was very, very helpful.

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I kind of drove his around and
he actually went with me to the

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dealership and we, he was with
me.

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He was, he's the man.
Yeah, way better friend than

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you.
He it is super helpful because I

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do, I do nothing.
And then I happened to mention

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one Wednesday night impact and
Steven Bostick's like, you

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should get a Tesla.
And I was like, OK, yeah, he's

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like, no, it's actually very
affordable.

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And then so I talked to Clay and
then that was that was it.

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So that was big for me.
So yeah, the cult of tests.

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Have like the callback like you
can make it come to.

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See because mine is is
inexpensive, it's not full self

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driving.
Honestly the like the auto steer

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is futuristic enough for me, but
it does not do the full and I

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can't summon it.
I can pay for those things, but

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then it makes it more expensive,
right?

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You know, but so.
So is that just a service that

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they turn on remotely?
Yeah, they can.

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I can either subscribe to at
$100 a month or you can pay

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$8000 and get it.
But it's something I can buy

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whenever I want to.
And it's if you buy it for

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$8000, it stays with the car,
not with me.

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So or if I can subscribe to it
and then I think.

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It stays with you.
Correct.

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So yeah, yeah.
So it's and they can also.

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It's crazy.
I could honestly, it goes zero

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to 60 very fast.
I mean a lot faster than my

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Prius and my Honda Odyssey.
So it was what I'm comparing it

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to.
But I could like, you could pay

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for an accelerator for 2000
bucks.

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They'll just unlock the
software.

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You can accelerate even faster.
So they've got like these things

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locked up, you know, isn't it
crazy?

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I mean, and that makes honestly,
that makes sense, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.
Because you know, instead of

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they build 1 car, they build it
well Yep.

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And then you pay for more
features.

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I mean, that's how software
works.

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Honestly, I've been pleasantly
surprised.

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I'm a little bit too dumb to.
But one thing I do appreciate,

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when you're driving a Prius, no
matter how fast you're going,

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I'm going 10 miles over the
speed limit, 10 mph.

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If they went, we're gonna pass.
Everyone's like, oh, it's a

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Prius and cut you off.
People don't cut me off in the

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Tesla.
And you can accelerate a lot

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faster than Prius.
So you can kind of like get

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where you need to go if it's
like an iffy situation.

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So that's on my end.
I heard that you know you're

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going to be Hibachi Mott in the
future here.

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Yeah, so my, my mother-in-law
got my father-in-law, a

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Blackstone Grill quite a few,
quite a while ago.

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Because I mean, last time we
were there duck hunting, I was

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like, hey, Tommy, you, you want
to get it out?

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I'll work with you.
And I kind of show you how it

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works and stuff because I had
used some a little bit at our

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school, you know, for football.
And Jill's cousin's husband,

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Aaron, who lives pretty close.
Like you can see their house.

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From Wow, that's pretty close.
Has one and like he was still on

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it, but he just was not very
comfortable with it.

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So we got it out over Christmas
break and I did what was the

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first thing I did on an I cooked
something for US one night.

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I'm I'm blanking.
I'm sure it was oh, it's

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hamburgers and hamburgers and
smash burgers.

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It's just normal hamburgers.
And then a couple days later we

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did.
I did breakfast for everyone.

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'S nice.
That's so cool.

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That's nice to do.
That yeah, so the fried eggs,

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you know, the sausage, the
bacon, the hash Browns, the

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works and you know and it's.
I need a little bit more not

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cooking area, but like prep area
like something like.

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Because especially if you're
cooking for that many people and

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you know, everything's big, but
and then, you know, it's pretty

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easy to clean up, you know,
just.

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That's like the dream.
Yeah, you just spray some water

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on it, you know, scrape it into
that little hole, wipe it down,

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let it heat back up, put a
little oil to season it, let

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that cook off I need.
To get when you're done, man.

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So we I can't, we came down the
day that we were leaving like

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kind of look, you know, we're
always a little bit behind what

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we want to be.
That's just, that's just the

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Mott way.
And they're like, Hey, we're

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going to give you that grill if
if you want it.

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I was like, yeah, I just want
to.

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And I was like thinking like
we're, you know, we had to like

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figure out how to.
Pack you made it work.

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Stuff, but we made it work so
yeah.

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So now we've been home 4 days
and I cooked on it half the

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time, half the.
Day that there's something yeah,

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I my my girl is like seeing
better days I'm I'm like need to

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be in the market soon but you
know maybe maybe I'll get one of

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those but I'm trying not to
spend money.

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So, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

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Just get get get Leann's father
to give you 1.

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I mean, that's your.
Honestly, great idea.

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William's birthday is Friday.
Get her a grill.

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That's right.
That's right.

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That's right.
All right.

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So Thursday episode.
Thursday episode, a topic that I

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think most people are just
they're dying to learn more.

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About this topic, what's funny
about it is that well, we'll get

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we'll get into it.
I'll, I'll, I'll intro it.

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This is my take on it that you I
did not run by you.

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So this will be good.
So let's go ahead and take it to

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the next level from the hearts
of the low country in South

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Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level.

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Michael, I got some bad news,
man.

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Let's hit me with it.
I couldn't sleep last night.

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I it's, it is just heart
wrenching.

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William Lane Craig, man, he has,
he's gone over to the dark side.

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He was a hylomorphic duelist,
and now he's a Cartesian

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duelist.
I don't know if he was ever a

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pure hylomorphic duelist, but he
has come out and showed his

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cards to be a Cartesian duelist.
Wow.

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Yeah, and if you're anything
like me, this means nothing to

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you in the same way it meant
nothing when Michael's like.

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Here's the notes for the next 1.
So explain yourself, Michael.

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Yeah, so I'll just preface all
this by saying when I was

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getting my masters in
philosophy, I took a class by

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Doctor Bridges called Philosophy
of the Mind where we delved into

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these types of things.
And it was towards the end of

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the class.
And he actually said people in

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your churches are not going to
be concerned about hylomorphic

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dualism.
Like he said that like they're

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not going to know what it is,
but you know about it and you

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should be concerned.
And you are the watchdogs for

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these topics that are going to
infiltrate the church and and

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kind of slowly get them off
track.

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And they don't know it.
And so, yeah, I recognize that

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this is this is at least
especially those words are not

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going to resonate.
So I thought maybe I would give

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a illustration of kind of the
three broad categories of

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thought when it comes to how a
human is composed.

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So there's straight materialism
and that just means just a body.

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Similar to monism like we talked
about along, I mean like if

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you're thinking in those
categories.

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Right.
And so there is nothing

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spiritual, there's nothing non
physical.

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Your consciousness is an
illusion.

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And there there are some minor,
you know, nuanced views in

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there, but we'll just we'll kind
of lump all those together into

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materialism.
And then the other broad

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category is dualism.
And so it means there is a body

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and a spirit, a body and a mind,
a body and a soul.

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But you count these
trichotomists can be in there

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'cause they would say there is a
body and a soul, but and a

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spirit.
Well, so so yeah, a trichotomist

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could say I'm a duelist and we
they think that there are three

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different non physical things
and then a.

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Oh, there's a physical, I mean
2, two different.

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Yeah, I see, I see.
The body the.

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Dividing line is through the.
Body they'd still be duelist

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because they'd still say, you
know, non physical and physical,

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but they would just chop the
physical in in half.

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You know, they'd they'd put
spirit and soul separately.

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OK.
I'm I'm tracking with that and

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from our previous podcast, like
that's where my comfort level

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ends, where my take away is, you
know, I think scripture

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generally talks about the
person.

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Like I think that unity is good,
but it does talk about

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immaterial part body divorced
from soul or spirit in, in

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certain instances.
And so I'm, I'm intrigued to see

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how you know these labels
Cartesian hyomorphic fit into

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the case with 'cause they're
both dualism, just different

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ways to look at it.
Right.

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And so I thought maybe the best
way to explain this would be

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through an analogy.
So for the materialistic

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version, let's just say rock,
you know, just rock, nothing

224
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,560
else.
And maybe it's complex rock, it

225
00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,800
moves around or whatever, or
group of rocks, but just a rock.

226
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,360
And then for the dualistic ones,
we'll say it's rock and water.

227
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,120
So there's the body and the
water will kind of represent the

228
00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:13,720
the mind, the non physical self.
So in Cartesian dualism, the

229
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,480
water and the rock are not mixed
at all.

230
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,880
And the water kind of, you know,
just kind of animates the rock

231
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,240
separately.
Whereas hylomorphic dualism.

232
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:31,080
Think of it like a clay statue
where there's definitely solids

233
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:36,120
in the clay, but the solids are
mixed with water and the water

234
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,200
is you know, it is animating the
the solids from within, not from

235
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:43,880
without.
So they're and they're like

236
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,000
more, you would almost think
they're more connected than not

237
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,120
totally separate, but it seems
like they're more separated.

238
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,760
Right.
And so that is the big deal and

239
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,120
it's not a huge deal.
I mean, this is not going to

240
00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:01,000
have earth shattering things for
people in the Pew if we're

241
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,920
Cartesian duelists, but I think
it does give us a lower view of

242
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:07,480
the body.
You know, why do we close our

243
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,200
eyes when we pray or most of us
close our eyes when we pray or

244
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,720
why do we like sometimes get
down to pray, you know, and

245
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,520
kneel or, you know, bow our
head.

246
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,080
That's, you know, spiritually
there doesn't make really that

247
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:25,080
big of a difference.
But because we are mind body

248
00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:28,600
composites, which is what
hylomorphic dualism would say,

249
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,280
like we're, we are, we're a
composite.

250
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:36,240
We, our nature is to have our
body when you know, we die.

251
00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:41,600
If, if William Lane Craig is
right, when we die, no big deal.

252
00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:43,280
We don't necessarily need our
body.

253
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,720
We're souls that had a body.
But now we're just souls.

254
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,480
And that's fine, because that is
really our true self.

255
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,480
Wow, so the yeah the body is
just not an afterthought, but

256
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,320
it's less significant.
It's almost like modern day

257
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,360
Gnosticism in some.
Maybe not exactly, but it's like

258
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,560
spiritual's good body.
Not body's bad, but body is

259
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,080
less.
Right, yeah, I wouldn't want to

260
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,560
put Gnostic type ideas into, but
it's it's not important.

261
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:10,280
Like he would say, matter is
fine.

262
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,080
Matter is good, but the true
your true self is just spirit.

263
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,160
But I, I think the from
philosophy and from scripture,

264
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,360
and obviously you're not going
to see Paul say and highomorphic

265
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,600
dualism is, is correct, but I
think the overall tone of

266
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,840
Scripture is that there is a
judgement when we die in our

267
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,440
body.
You know, think of a statue

268
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,880
where the water and the clay are
like stripped apart.

269
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,920
And at some point in time, you
know, God's going to join those

270
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,640
back together and it's going to
be working again, you know, in a

271
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,920
perfect way.
That seems to be more of the

272
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,720
case like that.
It is a judgement.

273
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,040
And, you know, for this time,
you know, that my mom, my dad,

274
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,360
you know, are without their
body.

275
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,360
They're, they're not, they're
full selves that they're, that

276
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,640
God intended them to be.
And they will be their full

277
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,320
selves upon the resurrection.
And when they get their bodies

278
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,680
back, they're they're, they're
good to go.

279
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,320
I think we sense that even in
Revelation, it's like these

280
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,200
martyrs are they're long.
It seems like there's like this

281
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,200
longing, right?
Like it's like things are good

282
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:17,200
but it's not perfect yet.
So we have some notes here.

283
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,200
Just seeing I'm looking over our
primer on hylomorphic dualism.

284
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,320
We probably covered most of
this.

285
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,560
I'll read this, the basics of
hylomorphic dualism.

286
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,800
It's a unified personhood.
A person's not merely a body or

287
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,760
a soul, but a composite of both.
The soul animates and organizes

288
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,720
the body, giving it life and
purpose.

289
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,720
The soul integrates and
transcends the physical, shaping

290
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,760
the person's life and identity.
You know, so the difference

291
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,160
would be like a living tree
versus a dead log.

292
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,440
What's the difference?
Well, one of them is alive, one

293
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,880
of them's not.
And you know, DNA plays a role

294
00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,560
in this.
So in my mind, you know, you got

295
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,040
these different schools of
thought.

296
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,120
So hylomorphic duralism started
with Aristotle was kind of

297
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,280
sanctified by Thomas Aquinas,
you know, and, and that

298
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,600
scholastic era, you know, 12:11,
12/13/14 hundreds.

299
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,720
And then with the Enlightenment,
you know, it was kind of thrown

300
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,920
out and that in really people
either were typically Cartesian

301
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,440
duelist or so.
That's an enlightenment idea.

302
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,240
Yeah, or materialist.
So you had these kind of, you

303
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,760
know, and then you had some
people kind of carry it on and

304
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:30,960
so.
Is William Lane Craig like

305
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,160
pretty favorable of the
Enlightenment just with like

306
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,240
reason and stuff, or is it just
like, you know well?

307
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,480
He would.
So there's different aspects.

308
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,480
He would definitely be a Kantian
philosopher.

309
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,520
And and so Kant comes out of
this struggle between like a

310
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,560
human as a cart or in a, in a
Spinoza and a lock.

311
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,960
You know, you have those folks
that are, you know, imperialist

312
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,440
versus idealist and they're, and
they're fighting.

313
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:05,920
So, and I put I put for those
philosophy people, I put the two

314
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,360
opposites together on each side
unintentionally, but you know,

315
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,160
Descartes, Spinoza on one side,
human lock on the other side.

316
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,760
And Kant kind of tried to tries
to bridge those together.

317
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,080
And and William Lane Craig would
definitely be in that vein.

318
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,840
You know, there have been
offspurts of that, but that is

319
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,160
the type of philosophy he does,
and it's very different than a

320
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,920
termistic philosopher.
Yeah, yeah, it seems like a lot,

321
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,280
a lot different.
And I feel like you just grow up

322
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,920
and it's like, man,
enlightenment's good because

323
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,560
it's modern and you learn, but
then like the more you think

324
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,840
about it and read about it, it's
like, man, medieval stuff that's

325
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,440
a good stuff.
They weren't just all dark and

326
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,080
dreary and they we lost
everything.

327
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,000
Yeah.
And we, yeah, we probably, you

328
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,440
know, you had the Dark Ages and
then you had the medieval era

329
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,520
and then you have the
Enlightenment and the medieval,

330
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,000
we think maybe because it has
that sound of evil on the end of

331
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,000
it.
I always thought, man, this must

332
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,640
have been a bad time.
And it wasn't roses either, but

333
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,640
it wasn't as bad as I think the
wrath that it gets.

334
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,280
There were some good things that
that came out of that.

335
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,319
So that that's hylomorphic kind
of get into some of the nuts,

336
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,359
nuts and bolts there.
What else you got on that?

337
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,640
So maybe just some why it
matters.

338
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:20,240
Humans are neither just physical
as a materialism nor merely just

339
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,560
spirits trapped in a body.
You know, your body is

340
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,640
important.
We talked about last week, you

341
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,400
know that verse that I think
it's in Second Timothy.

342
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,000
That's like, you know,
discipline now.

343
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,680
Physical discipline now.
It's worth it's worth something,

344
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,000
but you know, godliness is worth
even more.

345
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,880
And so I think sometimes if we
as if we over spiritualize and

346
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,720
say, well, you know, my body
doesn't really matter.

347
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,040
Your body is important.
You know, your body infects

348
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,400
affects your mind, your mind
affects your body.

349
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,120
There is this relationship here.
And so you treat the whole

350
00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:58,640
person you know, and when you're
trying to, you know, sanctify

351
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,920
and be all that you can be.
Yeah, that is interesting to me.

352
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,880
I mean, I don't know anything
about philosophy, so this, I'm

353
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,560
probably missing the boat, but
just with this emphasis on Jesus

354
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,360
bodily, resurrection bodily, I
know he's not saying body is

355
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,160
like evil, but it's like just
this emphasis like carry over.

356
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:17,480
It seems like their
significance.

357
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,240
He's eating at, you know, he's
doing these very human things.

358
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,640
And it's like, you know, you see
that that seems like a good

359
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:24,760
thing.
Yeah.

360
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,360
And I guess for a pure Cartesian
doulas, you'd have to say, well,

361
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,480
those are bonuses, but they're
not required.

362
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,960
But the the Bible seems to make
a big deal.

363
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,000
Like like this is really it.
So why would he?

364
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,400
What's the prose?
Or is it?

365
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:43,400
Is it more or less you're taking
this philosophical route or like

366
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,040
what's I don't know.
To me, hyomorphic has a lot more

367
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,600
upside because it has this
balanced view of like the new

368
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:50,880
heavens, new earth to be a very
physical place.

369
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,200
And that's a good thing.
Instead of it saying like, oh,

370
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,840
it is a it's a good thing, but
like not totally necessary or

371
00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,520
it's a bonus.
I don't know, like what's the I?

372
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,640
Think some, I think what's I,
you know, I, some have accused

373
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,200
Craig of just trying to go after
Thomistic because, you know,

374
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,920
there's lots of points of
disagreement with Thomism, you

375
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,480
know, divine simplicity, divine
impassability.

376
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,600
I don't, I don't get the sense,
you know, I want to be

377
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,240
charitable for I don't think
he's like just trying to go

378
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,960
after tomistic ideals.
But I think what probably leads

379
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,560
him astray from Tomism, some of
those foundational ways he views

380
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,800
things, those just tend to lead
to you.

381
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,720
Know those things.
I could see that to where it's

382
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,280
like I can get on board with
what an Armenian says a lot of

383
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,680
times, but sometimes it just
seems like certain things go

384
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,360
together or they make sense
more.

385
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,840
And if there's like a maybe one,
I might just by default side on

386
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,320
more of like church history and
reformation or something like

387
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,320
that.
Or I don't know.

388
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,120
I could see how you're not maybe
attacking the other side, but it

389
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,880
seems like it's out of place a
little bit.

390
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,000
So the reason this came up is
because in the question of the

391
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,040
week, so William Lane Craig at
reasonable faith, I mean, I'm,

392
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,760
you know, I encourage, I listen
to his podcast weekly and, and

393
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,040
they do the each week they'll go
over the the question of the

394
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,640
week.
So this would have been last

395
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,040
week's question of the week
since we're recording on on

396
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:17,880
Monday.
So I think they come out every

397
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,080
Monday or so, but it's really
recent.

398
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,800
He answers this question and you
can see his answer there.

399
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:29,600
But in in the answer he gives
this argument and so this is his

400
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,760
argument why he is a Cartesian
doula.

401
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:39,040
So it says the person before
physical death is identical to

402
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:44,640
the person after physical death.
The person after physical death

403
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,320
is identical to the soul after
physical.

404
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,680
Death, so he's equating person
and soul.

405
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,760
Seems good.
It may be the soul after

406
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,200
physical death is equal to the
soul before physical death.

407
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:00,600
Therefore the person before
physical death is identical to

408
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,320
the soul before physical death.
So hopefully all that did you

409
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,480
follow that?
I'm trying to so I get confused

410
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,680
because a lot of times I'll
refer to a soul as a person, but

411
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,080
that's not good.
If I'm saying like, hey, do this

412
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,760
with your heart, it's like,
well, that's separate than your

413
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,640
body.
So yeah, So what what we what if

414
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,520
you're hylomorphic, you would
say the person is that you are

415
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:33,000
that mind body composite, right?
And so, you know, I could lose a

416
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,080
few pounds.
My body impacts how I think, you

417
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,680
know, my body probably impacts
my mental stamina.

418
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,760
A joyful heart is good medicine,
but a crushed spirit dries up

419
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:42,720
the bones.
Right, right.

420
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,280
So my mind body composite is who
I am as as a whole.

421
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,440
And so like, you know, I think
my parents are a good example

422
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,240
for this because they've they've
both passed away.

423
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,360
You know, Chuck is not fully
Chuck right now because he's not

424
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,880
with, you know, his soul is
there, his mind is there, but

425
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,320
he's not all that God made him
to be in the fullest of his

426
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,520
nature right now.
So his person is somehow

427
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,280
diminished right now.
Gotcha.

428
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,160
So you would say person because
sometimes I think and I get

429
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,480
confused with colloquial terms
because a lot of times I'll be

430
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,160
like when I think of a soul, I
just think of a person.

431
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:21,800
But I guess I should say a
person.

432
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,040
'Cause you're thinking
Cartesian.

433
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,760
Gotcha.
Yeah, probably.

434
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,840
So 'cause I would be like, if
I'm there with my heart, I'm

435
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,680
doing it with my person, but
I'll say hearts or you know what

436
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:30,840
I'm saying, but I shouldn't say
that.

437
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,320
I should be like.
Well, 'cause you're supposed to

438
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,400
love God without your heart,
soul, mind and strength, 'cause

439
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,720
it's like all those the bodies
there too.

440
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,520
Yeah, so when I say soul, yeah.
So I should always say soul and

441
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,560
body don't say like the soul
today got saved.

442
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,280
It should be like that person
got saved.

443
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,840
Yeah, yeah.
To be really.

444
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:49,640
Precise.
Not that.

445
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,840
People know like we can talk
looser, but when you're do when

446
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,840
you're when you know, philosophy
is basically the science of all

447
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,760
these details and nuances and
making small, you know, small

448
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,880
different, you know, small
distinctions between things you.

449
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,400
Know no I gotcha.
So I'm making a decision in my

450
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,680
heart.
It just that might not be a it's

451
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,000
not a physical thing.
It's like it's it's I always

452
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,200
connect them all so I guess I
just have a hard time thinking.

453
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,280
Yeah, I mean, there you have
different like your finger is

454
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,480
not making a decision, right?
Right.

455
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,240
But Zach made a decision and
Zach's decision could affect his

456
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,560
finger.
Like if your mind did something

457
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,920
dumb and you know your finger
got burned or.

458
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,520
Or I give my mind too much
credits?

459
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,240
Or I should I should extend it
more to the body and not just

460
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,760
keep it as like my mind?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

461
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,920
Your body is important.
Now we we want to overemphasize

462
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,640
our body, you know, but yeah, so
you know, Atomus would say that

463
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:52,360
the body is the matter and the
soul or the spirit, the mind is

464
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:55,800
the form.
So it's like your non physical

465
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,600
self is animating your physical
self and making decisions for

466
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,080
your physical self and kind of
giving shape to it.

467
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:09,760
Now I think that's why I that
would be like AA14 hundreds

468
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,760
person Traducianism.
You know what that.

469
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,320
Is correct an origin of a soul?
Kind of.

470
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,640
Right, so there's this.
They also believed your first

471
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,480
hyomorphic duelist thought that
God, you know, created a soul.

472
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,640
Like all the souls are like in a
bank somewhere.

473
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,080
Yeah, yeah.
And he, well, he, no, he, he

474
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,440
created them on the spot.
Oh, you say on the spot.

475
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,680
And then there is the in the
bank somewhere that they just

476
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,840
kind of get married up 'cause
they were 'cause they're trying

477
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,720
to avoid God creating something
evil.

478
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:45,360
But then the trans trdusianism
says no, A mom is a spirit body

479
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,040
complex.
A dad is a spirit body complex.

480
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,040
You.
Know their gametes come

481
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,600
together, they make a spirit
body complex that's right there

482
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:58,280
so that I think the DNA that's
carried in there, you know, in

483
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,240
there and I said, you know, I
think you're going to inherit

484
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,880
soul traits and tendencies from
your parents.

485
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,960
You know that that's going to
come come through as well.

486
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,720
So, and that's more of that all
mind and body are kind of

487
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,040
working together.
OK, Yeah.

488
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,280
So I thought maybe we'd take
each one of his premises.

489
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:20,440
The person before physical death
is equal to the person after

490
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,920
physical death.
I think we would basically

491
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,320
concur with that.
The person persists, but they've

492
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,360
gone through some significant
change.

493
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:37,040
They're incomplete right now.
So the person is the same, but

494
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,200
it's like, you know, if I, you
know, we could say, you know,

495
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,520
Brian had an accident in
Arkansas, lost his lower leg.

496
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,240
It's still Brian, but he's not
as full of Brian as he used to

497
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,960
because the Brian that I grew up
with played a lot of basketball.

498
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,040
Brian right now is not playing
basketball.

499
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,760
So there's a a decrement to him.
Is it still Brian?

500
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,000
Yes.
And I think we could kind of

501
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:00,760
say, you know, lesser to the
greater.

502
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,720
You know, when you die, you've
lost your body.

503
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,160
There's you're still the same
person, but are you exactly the

504
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,240
same or has there been some type
of change that's happened to

505
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,240
that person?
'Cause you would be even, I mean

506
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,400
5 versus 75 not.
I mean, yeah, it's like you're

507
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,920
different, but the same.
Right.

508
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,360
Yep, Premise 2.
The person after physical death

509
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:22,720
is equal to the soul after their
physical death.

510
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,560
And this is where we we would
strongly disagree because we

511
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,160
would say the soul is not the
whole person, it's the

512
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,800
substantial part.
But after and after the soul,

513
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,040
after death, the soul subsists.
It carries on without the body.

514
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,720
But they're not fully realized
at this point.

515
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,960
They're not all that their form
was meant to be, you know?

516
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,080
And he's like, you are what
you're meant to because the

517
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,000
body, you're like the essence of
what you'd be.

518
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,760
The body's just like extra.
Right, right.

519
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,360
Premise 3, the soul after death
is equal to the soul before

520
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:55,640
death.
Yeah, we wouldn't hyomorphic

521
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,880
wouldn't disagree with that.
Yeah, we would say that's the

522
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,960
same.
But then the conclusion, it

523
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:03,080
really kind of rests on premise
2IN which we would disagree

524
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,240
with.
So if premise 2 is not true,

525
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,200
then we would, you know, the
argument would fall apart.

526
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,680
The person before physical death
is equal to the soul before

527
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,160
physical death.
And so we would say, you know,

528
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,480
the soul alone constitutes the
person.

529
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,040
We would disagree with that.
We would emphasize the body's a

530
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,800
central role in your personhood.
It's a lesser role, but it's

531
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,520
still it's still part of who you
are.

532
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:25,800
That's interesting.
Yeah.

533
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,880
I'm trying to think about all
this terminology and stuff and I

534
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,560
feel like I assume Cartesian
language, but high a little

535
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,600
more.
I just think of a person mostly

536
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,720
when I talk about someone, I
think about body and soul and

537
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,760
I'd assume that.
So I would say soul as shorthand

538
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,600
for a body.
And I mean like when I can,

539
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,040
that's what I speak in those
terms.

540
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,960
Because when I've read
scripture, I feel like most of

541
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,640
the time the unity of a person
is emphasized versus all these

542
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,840
separate parts.
So I'm, I'm kind of with you

543
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,800
where I feel like it sounds
interesting to, you know, have

544
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,520
the emphasis on the, it's like
being so separate and it's like

545
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,560
totally fine.
This is great.

546
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:03,880
Not maybe not great, but it's
good.

547
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,120
This is how it's supposed to be.
Yeah, so implications, you

548
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,320
already mentioned one of these,
resurrection theology,

549
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,320
holomorphic dualism underscores
the resurrection's importance

550
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,280
for restoring the person to
complete lists.

551
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,560
You know we have all of First
Corinthians 15.

552
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,320
Talking about yeah, it's a lot
of a huge chapter, right?

553
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,520
Where Cartesian dualism.
It wouldn't say that that's not

554
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,720
gonna happen, it's just kind of.
It wouldn't be as important in

555
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,920
that system.
Yeah, Why?

556
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,320
It seems like there's a lot of
emphasis on that in Scripture

557
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,120
for it to be like, cool, it's
like dessert, but it's not like

558
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,360
you know, you know, it's not
like a, the main, a main event.

559
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,560
Right.
And so you know hylomorphic

560
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,800
would say that you are a body
soul composite where Cartesian

561
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:53,600
would say you Zach have a body
so slightly different and

562
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,960
Genesis 2 seven First
Corinthians 15 both would kind

563
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,520
would would tend to lean in the
hylomorphic role.

564
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,920
And then some philosophical
challenges here.

565
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,080
Cartesian dualism faces
challenges in explaining the

566
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,920
intimate connection between the
body and soul.

567
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,040
When Descartes came up with
this, so he just discovered the

568
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,760
pineal gland in the brain, he's
like, oh, I bet that's what what

569
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,800
happens.
That's what the soul uses to

570
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,960
animate the body.
Doesn't really make sense of

571
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,720
that.
Hylomorphic dualism offers a

572
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,960
more coherent account of human
nature, emphasizes the

573
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,920
emphasizing the unity.
Of I just just like you feel.

574
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,880
I feel like the unity is there
when I think think about, even

575
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,680
if I speak in wrong terms.
I'm just assuming unity, right?

576
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,040
Right.
So is this something that we

577
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,080
need to go out and boycott
William Lane Craig?

578
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,640
Make a tract about it.
What's that I'll?

579
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,120
Pick a tract, go door to door.
Sorry.

580
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,600
Yeah, I love morphic dualism.
Yeah, yeah.

581
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,360
But I think it it is, it could
be, it could lead to other wrong

582
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,360
thing.
I don't know what that wrong

583
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,360
thinking is, but I just found an
interesting thought thought that

584
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,040
we maybe we should talk about it
if anyone else is listening,

585
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,520
William Lane Craig and hey.
William Lane Craig, I'm looking

586
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,120
straight into the camera.
I want you sitting in this seat.

587
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,560
I'll put anyone against my guy
and maybe if you debate him and

588
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,160
you win, you will no longer be
Michael Mott between Michael.

589
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,120
Michael Harrison Mott That's
right, there have been little

590
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,280
podcasts from time to time that
have picked got picked up by his

591
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,920
show.
So so I have all the respect for

592
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,760
him even though I do disagree
with him on some things.

593
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:34,640
So.
You know, I'm gonna say it.

594
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,120
No respect.
No, I'm just saying I told him,

595
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,800
yeah, a lot of great work.
I'm not, I'm not, as I don't

596
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,200
listen to everything he does,
but I think he's a very smart

597
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,080
guy.
Oh yeah, very smart and

598
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,880
obviously has read and studied
more than than probably the both

599
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,800
of us together, but.
That's not saying much because

600
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,040
you've read a lot.
And then like throw on the

601
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,440
little bit and a a philosophy
that I have.

602
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:55,880
So, you know, yeah.
Yeah.

603
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:57,800
All right.
Well, hopefully that was

604
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,200
enjoyable.
Hopefully we, I was able to, you

605
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,440
know, help explain it to you,
Zach and then and then therefore

606
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,640
our audience also be able to get
it as well.

607
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:06,840
So.
I like it, yeah.

608
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,000
If you are, you know, apologetic
extraordinaire, you should, you

609
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,880
know, type in other of these,
you know, things.

610
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,040
That's probably good that you
listen to these podcasts where,

611
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,840
you know, these things kind of
pop up and see things.

612
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,920
But that's good.
You know, it's good to have this

613
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,880
wide array of of podcasts, you
know, to Yeah, to get.

614
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,360
On the title of this, so people
don't look at that and go, Nah,

615
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,000
not going to listen to that one.
We'll say like, win a free car

616
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,280
and if they might click on it,
they're like hylomorphic

617
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,360
dualism.
Come on.

618
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,120
But it'll be like win a free car
or hylomorphic dualism.

619
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,800
You got to listen to find out.
That's pretty funny.

620
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,120
Well, if you made it this far,
you did not win a free car.

621
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:49,600
All right.
Anything else?

622
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,680
I got nothing.
OK, that's our take.

623
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,600
Thanks for listening to Take 2.
Find us wherever you find

624
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,120
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

625
00:31:59,120 --> 00:31:59,800
video cast.