Did We Strawman the Atheist?

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Right, Zach?
Yes.

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Have you ever operated a 3D
printer?

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I've heard of them, yeah.
That said, for those that don't

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know, that's a joke.
I have a 3D printer that Michael

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now has and I religiously
probably for a year, I probably

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like every day is an
overstatement, but like at least

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weekly I would it's like one of
those addictive things where I'm

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kind of glad I don't have it.
Gotcha.

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I because I would, I would work
over here and have like lost

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myself and I would just be like
I would like every morning when

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I got, I had a time like I'd
learn how to start a print.

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So it'd be done at night or the
next day and I would go out so.

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You'd let it print overnight.
I I did, yeah.

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And I would.
It was like really fun and

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really great.
And you'd be like, oh, print

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messed up.
You'd be bummed you do it again.

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It's like it was really fun.
You're like watching the

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progress.
I do miss it in that sense, but

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I don't miss it in right now is
not a good time of my life for

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one.
But man, if I, if I get it's,

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I'm glad you have it 'cause if I
get it back, it's gonna be kind

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of crazy.
So I'm excited where this is

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going.
So Speaking of bad prints, this

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is 1 Silk does this.
Silk look nice.

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It does look one.
This is what so we gave your

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printer to Alex who got it
working and he was using the

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white PLA for a long time, but
when he gave it to me this was

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in here and I've been scared to
change it out.

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Oh yeah.
Yeah.

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Just easier, yeah.
To but I think I need to print

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some things not in this probably
white I will tell you.

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Silk.
To me silk is harder to print

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the normal PLA and if you ever
get if you look at the PLA and

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PLA plus I usually recommend the
PLA plus is a little bit more

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sturdy and those two like easy
prints.

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Gotcha.
So this is this is what this was

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supposed to be.
So I did get a wolf out of.

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It oh, this looks, it looks
really nice.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, wolves are reoccurring

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animal.
It looks like art D&D Yeah,

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yeah, it does.
And then I my.

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Oh man.
Purchased online SLT file 06

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bucks of my character but so
that is basically look at that

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our character that's a little
bit larger because the first

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time I printed it, it had some
problems I had to re change the.

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Structure.
It's pretty amazing this.

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Is the right size, but you can
see there's a little bit of

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webbing in there.
But I'm not, I don't think I'm

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going to try to take that off
because.

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It's such a.
It's so delicate.

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It's like it's so a it's tedious
and delicate, and then it's like

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you mess up one of the supports
or the webbing or whatever and

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then it's like, oh, I just
cracked off the head.

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Yeah, yeah, this guy has.
So he's got a Cape.

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He's supposed this is supposed
to be a flute in his hand.

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He's a musician.
He plays like, you know, like,

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not like a flute like you'd
think here like a, a wooden

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recorder.
And then?

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A recorder that's like what I
did in 4th grade.

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I'm just kidding.
This is very cool.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's got a rape here, so you can

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see that sword on his side.
Yeah, yeah.

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And if you could see his hand,
it's like there's a little smoke

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there because he's a, he's a
cleric.

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So he does like healing spells
and stuff like.

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That nice?
Have you ever heard of the resin

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printer?
Have I talked to you about this?

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Yeah, we had a resin printer at
formerly Spayware, now Nywick.

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And so it's like this big vent
of resin and there's three

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lasers boom and they hit, it's
where they they have to hit all

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three of them to form this
laser.

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And it's very the resin to
harden it.

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It's very precise.
You can get that's, I know a lot

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of people use it for that exact
thing for game figures.

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Also I think it's toxic.
So you have to have like

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ventilation or you have to have
better ventilation than a

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normal.
I mean, I could have bought

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this.
From the.

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Company printed.
It out.

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And it's like 3540 bucks.
I was like for 6 bucks if I can

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buy the file I'll just print Oh
I should.

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I should show you if I can find
it next time.

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I printed out like the little
trains for like like like

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Mexican Domino's.
Have you seen this?

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And it like it?
I mean, you could.

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It looks really good.
I mean, it's not perfect.

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I'll just say.
Does Northwood have 30 printers?

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Not that I'm aware of, no.
But it's a good technology to

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learn, that's what.
I was going to say maybe they

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should, maybe there should be a
3D print club.

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Yeah.
That, you know, like my sister's

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school is like grade and it's.
5th grade looking for some clubs

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I'm.
I'm just saying that 'cause that

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would be good, 'cause it's like
problem solving and developing

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it is and you can, you know
that's.

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It's not a science, it's an art
'cause I, I learned it is even

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doing this like, you know what
type of feeling I want to make

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the because the first time I
printed this, it was really, it

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just kind of crumbled.
I was like, OK, I got to change

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my supports out.
I'd made it the most the tiniest

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layers and stuff.
So there's different things you

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can do to kind of hone in on
something like this.

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But if you're doing something
that's like a box, you don't

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need.
That stuff you can save time,

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you can do like cool designs and
it sounds silly, but there is a

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difference.
If it's like like little like

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like silk PLA versus normal PLA,
it's like not that big a

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difference, but you do want to
maybe like 5 degrees, 8° on the

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temperature does make a
difference.

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Yeah, so your printer always
wants to go to 200°?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I had to put it up to 210

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because the the silk PLA is 210
± 10.

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And you'll see the nozzle
temperature like kind of flow in

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and around 2:10 go up like 214
and then like 204 or whatever.

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And it'll it'll.
Yeah, they should.

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They should definitely do that.
And then we could use three for

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like a really nice one, you
know?

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Yeah.
So anyway, nice.

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That is good.
I'm glad it's being put to good

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use.
It is so fun to do.

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It is a pain to change out the
PLA, but that is like really,

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really cool.
Yeah.

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Any tips on changing that out?
Just it's actually really not

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there's like 2 if you look on
YouTube, there's two there's

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like I can't remember which is
better.

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There's like a a hot, I don't
know, a hot pool and a cold pool

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and I don't know which one is
preferred.

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I usually have them on a kind of
heat it up because it like is a

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little bit easier like 50. 60°
or something.

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Yeah, I can't remember.
There's a YouTube video and some

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people are very strong, like
don't do the cold pool.

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You're going to mess something
up, you know, when you pull,

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when you pull it.
Out Alex was saying if you take

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the PLA and cut it at a point
because there's a little bit of

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a.
It's like a loop deal.

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Not a loop deal, but there's.
You gotta get to go through and

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if it's just flat it doesn't
want to make that angle.

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You have, yeah, that, no, that's
really smart.

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You have to have the angle and
it's still a little bit

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annoying.
It's really not hard, but it

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might take you like 5.
It's like, it's like not hard,

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but if it's something takes like
8 minutes, it's like very

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frustrating.
It's like not that long of a

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time, but you're like, Oh yeah.
But that's exciting.

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I like the the print updates
man, I love it.

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That was before I leveled it
with the paper, 'cause I didn't

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realize I had to do that, 'cause
I just used the auto leveling.

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Yeah.
And I thought, oh, it should be

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good.
Should be.

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And I came back and those things
were like floating around while

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it was trying to print.
Oh, you just like in midair

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doing?
The Yeah man.

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Yeah, great.
I as Alex, he has his new

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printer has.
He got his own printer now so.

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I bet it's killer.
Yeah.

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Has he showed you what he's
printed?

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I no, I don't know what he's
got.

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I don't know if he got one like
yours or I I.

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I bet it's good because this my
printer used to print better

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than it does now.
I feel like I haven't printed it

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in years and he got like a like
a next level up.

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Like I bet it's I bet it's gonna
be so good.

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I'm excited.
That's like so fun to print.

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All of I print so many things,
all of them useless, all of them

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like not super functional, but
it's great.

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We have that ornament that you
printed.

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Do you remember?
That oh, I do that was like a

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that was a intensive print.
I mean, it took a long time and

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I mean it looks pretty good when
you go like a little bit bigger

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than this.
It like has less blemishes.

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You know, it's so hard to get
that small detail, but it is

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annoying.
Nothing's ever like perfect.

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There's like a little bit, but
that's it's so fun.

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You can just make it.
I made like a gas cap for like

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my car.
It wasn't it like Fit, but it

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wasn't it wasn't good.
But you can do like little

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things like that you.
Know and the gasoline won't eat

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at the resin.
I, I I didn't use it.

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I I stopped it.
It wasn't.

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It was like, oh it fit.
Almost like I probably should

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use the normal 1.
OK, so you had.

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It wasn't like you didn't have
one.

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You were just like trying to.
Yeah, it was like.

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It was cool.
I was trying to do like

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functional things.
I was looking at all these

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functional, but I was like,
yeah, most of my stuff is, are

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like containers.
Yeah.

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And like shell like I'll, I'll
have to show you some of this if

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I can, if I can find it, 'cause
it was like so fun.

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But anyway, a lot of 3D print
talk there.

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You just said something like
nothing's ever perfect and that

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would, you know, people would
say the same thing about our

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podcast.
In fact, people have said such

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about.
That's what's prompting this

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podcast.
Michael had the great idea to

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respond to some comments, 'cause
we're getting comments.

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We are getting comments.
We started putting out Moss

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Louis Moss shorts, so it's.
So weird.

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'Cause you look at them, you're
like, why did this one?

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And is it like YouTube getting
served up or is it like the

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first few people that see it how
they react?

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To it.
Does it make it either go or not

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go?
So just a word of the wise, if

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you see one of our shorts just
let it run for like 5 minutes.

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Like it comment that just.
Watch it 6 times and like it

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because it it is bizarre.
We're posting slightly more

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shorts and for the most part
really gotten a lot of views,

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but it's so bizarre to be like,
hey, here's 2000 views, then

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hey, here's like 15 views.
Yeah, 4/4.

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It's like very drastic.
Yeah, there was one.

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I so I guess I'm learning also
the art of that because there

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were, I'm taking like what I
consider good little Nuggets out

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of a longer format, squashing
us, you know, on one on top of

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the other.
And then I named three of them

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very similar or maybe even the
same.

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And I, the third one, it just
was not doing well.

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And I changed the title.
Boom, it went up like 1.6 K and

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it's like, OK, it's like, I
don't, I don't know.

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We'll see.
Man, well, that's what we're

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gonna talk about now.
Some of these comments.

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I'm, I'm excited for that 'cause
we got some good ones.

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Let's go ahead and take it to
the next level.

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
Quite a few comments.

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We're only going to get to 2
commenters.

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So if you commented something
and we don't address it re

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comment or something.
But these are the these are the

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two that I felt were kind of the
most pointed.

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OK, yeah.
And I wanted to address them.

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And the first one was on our
longer format on the moral

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argument.
So the moral argument for God's

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existence.
And strange Pan said this is

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about 3 weeks ago said you all
do your viewers A disservice by

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so poorly misrepresenting the
counterpoints you bring up.

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It does very little to
strengthen your own position.

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It's like testing bulletproof
armor with airsoft.

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Try discussing these things with
an actual atheist who knows what

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they're talking about.
First off, want to say thanks

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for commenting and fellow
southerner y'all.

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So we got some common ground
here.

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Yeah, I appreciate y'all.
Have you heard about the Y'all

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Bible?
No, I haven't.

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So we have often mentioned the
fact that in most languages you

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can be singular plural.
So this Bible puts in a Yaw for

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all the plural yous.
So you clarify that is helpful.

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That is talking to multiple
people on the second person or

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one person.
It's one of the fewer.

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One of the few pluses KJV brings
to the table is the the, the and

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the and all this stuff.
Yeah, that's great.

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But y'all, so I was, you know,
trying to do clues.

252
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Strange.
The name doesn't help me a ton.

253
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Strange Pan, you know, it could
be anything but y'all.

254
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So anyway.
Yeah, and I will try to comment

255
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or you know, maybe comment the
name so it shows backed up

256
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because you may not be a all
time follower.

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I understand that sometimes
YouTube allows me to do that,

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sometimes it doesn't.
And I wonder if it's like

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privacy settings for the
individual account, whether you

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can tag someone.
But all right, so my first

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comment like you said, thank
you, appreciate the input.

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And it makes this be a little
bit retrospective and.

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It's and it's really, it's
honestly really helpful like to

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your comments to get pushed back
like that so we can think

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through things better or
different or at least do

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something like this where we're
probably kind of on your side

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with this one and the fact that
we're not trying to, you know,

268
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,000
Mantle dismantle a straw man,
right?

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Right.
Yeah, we don't want to do that.

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But my first question is yes,
why is that wrong?

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Oh, why is it wrong to build up
a poor argument and take it

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down?
Yeah, I I see what you said.

273
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You're doing the moral argument
like turning it around.

274
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's good.

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Is there some standard that we
should live by with our podcast?

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And I'm just a little tongue in
the cheek, but that's a good

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00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,960
question because I appreciate
the the input.

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Strange, Pan, but it's almost as
if you think that we have a

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moral obligation or a duty to
treat the opponent fairly.

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And I think we would both agree
that we do have that.

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But that in and of itself is
ironic because you could have

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said this maybe on like the
theological argument or

283
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something like that.
But your comment came in on the

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moral argument.
And so it if something is like.

285
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A disservice if it's poorly
done.

286
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,720
Yeah, it's yeah.
What's the big deal?

287
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Yeah.
So only you know, and there has

288
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to be objective moral arguments
or objective moral duties and

289
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values for this to go through.
Because if it's just subjective,

290
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it's like you're saying I don't
like it when you do that, but

291
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that's be like, that's fine.
And I don't like chocolate.

292
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I like bread.
Yeah.

293
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:15,720
Yeah.
It's like, fine, yeah.

294
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Yeah, so I just thought it was
ironic, you know, just taking a

295
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,400
step back from the challenge
itself.

296
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There is an applied duty that we
have to represent our opponents

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00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:33,400
fairly, and that speaks to the
moral argument.

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And to say it again, we agree,
we agree with you that there

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should be some objective like
that.

300
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We should represent things well.
So I thought maybe we just go

301
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over the moral argument because
I think we hit all these things

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and I don't.
I mean, what, what's the I wish

303
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,760
I I wish I knew what the
specific pushback was or like,

304
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,080
you know which which area part.
Did we not?

305
00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:02,600
Did we not do so Just the moral
argument in a nutshell was if

306
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God does not exist, then
objective moral values and

307
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duties do not exist.
Objective moral values and

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00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,200
duties do exist.
Therefore, God must exist.

309
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,440
So that is how we phrased it
here.

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And we are going to say that the
best explanation for objective

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00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:31,600
moral values and duties is a
trans, a transcendent God.

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00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,840
And so when I read this, I was,
I think I told you this like I

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00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,320
just responded in like a little
selfie video because I was just

314
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,560
like, I was thinking about it.
I was like, I want to say these

315
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,040
things.
So as I was responding, I was

316
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,480
driving.
I just had it on my little

317
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,640
magnetic thing recording.
So I kind of wanted to get the

318
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,480
the the.
You're in the moments.

319
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,920
In the moment.
Capture the language.

320
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,520
And as I was driving a 55 mile
an hour speed sign and that's a

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physical thing and it is
informing me however of a non

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physical reality.
Right.

323
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,360
That's right.
Yeah.

324
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,640
Yeah, yeah.
There is a physical reality of

325
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,240
my velocity.
That is a physical thing that we

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can measure, but the non
physical reality is that there

327
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is a body of people in the state
of South Carolina who have an

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authority over me.
And we can and you can debate

329
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government authority, but we'll
just say there that that

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authority is a non visible
thing.

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00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,520
And so we're saying that they
have they are a proper authority

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to make a law that passes.
And that physical sign is

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00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,480
informing me of that law, but it
is not the.

334
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,000
Law, it's not the law, but it it
kind of you look at that and

335
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,040
you're like, oh, there's there's
something there.

336
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,480
Right.
And so I just use that to to

337
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,240
reinforce this idea that laws,
moral laws and duties are non

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00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,880
physical.
They're not physical.

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00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,880
Yeah, if that's right.
If we walked into someone's

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garage and picked up a garden
hose and I gave you every

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00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,760
possible physical description of
that act, like anything you

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00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,160
wanted to know, I could tell
you.

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00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,520
You still wouldn't know whether
we broke a moral law or duty or

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00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,720
not 'cause you'd have to know
things like ownership or

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00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,880
permission to borrow those types
of things.

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00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,400
And those are non physical
things.

347
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,000
Yeah, I like that.
That's good.

348
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,600
The non physical side of things.
Yeah, that I I'm I'm like trying

349
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,720
to wrap my brain for like what's
like the what would strange Pam

350
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,320
like what would he say?
You know what I'm saying?

351
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:37,320
Like that's what I'm trying to
think.

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00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,520
Of yeah, So most of the time
when folks.

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00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,000
So there's 2.
So there's two premises that

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00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,240
basically first premise says
that you can't have objective

355
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,080
moral values and duties without
God.

356
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,840
You can have subjective, but you
can't have objective.

357
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,080
Second premise is saying that
they actually exist.

358
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,800
So in order to defeat the
argument, you either have to

359
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,880
somehow try to ground objective
moral values and duties and

360
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,400
something other than God.
OK.

361
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,880
Which would be like.
DNA Evolution.

362
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:17,320
Social contract type of stuff.
So you you might you might try

363
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,240
to ground ground them in an
abstract non physical object

364
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,000
like a Platonian object.
Sorry I'm getting wrapped up in

365
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,000
my chords.
So the problem is abstract

366
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,480
objects are causally effete big
words.

367
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,680
They cannot stand in a causal
relationship.

368
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:43,680
So even if there are Platonic
solids or Platonic ideals that

369
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,960
do exist apart from God, you
know, we could say that the idea

370
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,880
of goodness is an abstract
object, exists, but it only

371
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,800
exists in my view, in the mind
of God.

372
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,960
But even if I were to grant you,
goodness exists outside of God,

373
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,720
and it is its own thing, like a
Platonic substance.

374
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,920
It's 'causely A feat.
There's nothing that would say I

375
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,000
have to obey it.
Right, it's just.

376
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:08,600
Right.
It's just out there.

377
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,880
Just like the, the, the purest
perfect nature of a chair is out

378
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,680
there, the purest perfect nature
of a triangle is out there.

379
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,160
Doesn't mean I have to make a
chair that conforms to that.

380
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,720
In fact, I I can't make a chair
that conforms to it.

381
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,920
Yeah.
So.

382
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:26,240
That's good.
Yeah.

383
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,720
So I'm trying to think of what
other things that you might try

384
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,080
to ground objective moral values
and duties.

385
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,960
Most of the time what I have
heard in talking with people on

386
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,280
the street, it's evolution.
OK.

387
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,160
So yeah, so we're talking DNA,
we're talking evolution.

388
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,080
It's like we're just made this
way.

389
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,560
It's how we've survived.
It's like we're, we can keep

390
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,840
like, you know, the human race
going through observing these

391
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,200
actions.
Yeah.

392
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,360
So lots of times they'll say it
is in your survival nature to be

393
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,480
cooperative.
It's in your survival nature to

394
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,400
love.
So we have basically been

395
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,440
naturally selected to have these
these things.

396
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,720
Well, first of all, that sounds
like it's not objective.

397
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,880
So it doesn't that language by
itself, how I, at least how I'm

398
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,760
phrasing it and how I best
understand the argument, is not,

399
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,320
is not objective.
But there are four huge hurdles

400
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:32,440
for evolution to be the
grounding of objective moral

401
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,040
values and duties.
First one, did evolution even

402
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,400
happen?
Right.

403
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:37,200
Yes, yeah.
And.

404
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,360
If there's an atheist, they're
going to roll their eyes.

405
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,400
Yeah, that's.
Like always a given, probably in

406
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,880
their minds.
But not so fast.

407
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,120
And evolution really depends on
even though it presupposes like

408
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:51,560
if you read it, if you hear
about it, they'll they'll go.

409
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:58,000
Well, there was some RNA
molecule, like even the starting

410
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,800
of life.
Yeah.

411
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,680
And evolution, if you press
someone who knows what they're

412
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,120
talking about and they're like,
yeah, evolution does not

413
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,000
actually account for the start
of life.

414
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,000
It just accounts for natural
selection.

415
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,800
After life starts.
But so that aside, if we grant

416
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,560
that, let's say, let's just
grant to you that evolution did

417
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,960
happen, then how does
consciousness arise from that?

418
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,600
So you've got these molecules
that.

419
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,160
That's a big leap, yeah.
Yeah, there's a huge leap there

420
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,480
for consciousness.
OK, well let's we could grant

421
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,520
consciousness then you could ask
how could evolution in principle

422
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,720
even affect something that's non
physical?

423
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,600
Remember we talked about that,
that speed sign physical thing,

424
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:45,120
but how could our DNA, if we're
talking about, you know, love

425
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:49,520
and justice and, you know, not
raping someone, not, you know,

426
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,280
you know, probably that that
board always gets bleeped out.

427
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,440
So maybe I'll have to bleep that
out.

428
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not assaulting someone, you

429
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,720
know, all, all of those things.
You know, those ideas are, you

430
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,960
know, there's non physical
elements to those.

431
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,520
Just because you see someone
taking something or see someone

432
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,760
mating with someone, you don't
know from that whether

433
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,200
something's been broken.
But even if we could, let's say

434
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,880
that we can grant that to you.
The last bit is even if

435
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,200
evolution could affect something
non physical, evolution selects

436
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,800
for survival, not truth, which
is kind of what I was getting

437
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,800
that before.
So all we know is that our if

438
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:35,240
if, if we're here as a product
of blind evolutionary chance,

439
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,480
neo Darwinian synthesis.
All we know is is that our

440
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,160
brains evolved to get our genes
in the next generation.

441
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,040
Yeah.
And it's like when you look at,

442
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,680
you know, animals not behaving
very morally, and you're like,

443
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,120
oh, going back to some things,
maybe you were just saying, it's

444
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,880
like, oh, that seems like
something we wouldn't do.

445
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,360
Right.
Yeah, that's that's.

446
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,640
So, I mean, and I know we talked
through it, but then the

447
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,040
pushback's like, well, you know,
someone, somewhere, some

448
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,360
culture, somewhere don't have
this standard or whatever.

449
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,080
But but the broader point I
think is.

450
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,320
Well, even to that point, yeah.
Yeah, when you die then into

451
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,080
what's actually going on on
those cultures that seem to be

452
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:23,760
aberrant, the the main moral
things are still there, even if

453
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,680
it's like a culture where my
tribe we believe we can do all

454
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,120
these bad things to your.
Tribe.

455
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,520
But inside our tribe we have
the.

456
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,440
Same exact.
Values and stuff about not

457
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,080
murdering and and you know,
possession of property, you

458
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,600
know.
And with all of human history,

459
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,840
even if there were like a
handful of people, it's kind of

460
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,880
like the exception proves the
rule and like that you.

461
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,560
Say strength of bad culture.
Yeah, Yeah, that almost further

462
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:49,440
strength.
Yeah, I got you.

463
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,080
Yeah.
Yeah, so if it's not DNA and

464
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,400
evolution, other possible things
are social contract theory, kind

465
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,360
of like house rules.
So every.

466
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,400
Culture maybe has different
things and it's like, hey, get

467
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,400
to spy.
We just agree.

468
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,760
I'm not going to punch you in
the face.

469
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,520
Don't punch me in the face.
We'll be good on this podcast.

470
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,280
But that's not objective, right?
We just agreed to it.

471
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:13,320
It's not something that is
outside of our subjective

472
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:19,120
agreement and then human
authority alone, you know, so

473
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,680
like some type of limited or you
know, just because I say it or

474
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,600
might makes right, you know,
just trying to think of what

475
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,400
other what are the things that
might try to be grounded.

476
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,480
So if we if we missed some other
way that.

477
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,560
Let us know, yeah.
Try to ground objective moral

478
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,760
values and duties.
Then then then let us know the

479
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,760
other way around.
This is to just say they don't

480
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,920
exist.
Yeah, right.

481
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,880
Right, But by pointing out that
you thought we straw man the

482
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,000
argument, I think that shows
that they do exist, right?

483
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:51,400
Man.
And it's not.

484
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,640
I can't think of a real life
situation where someone letters

485
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,200
their entire life consistent
with that anyway.

486
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,200
Right, You can't because you
always smuggle it in, especially

487
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,480
when you feel like you've been
wronged #1 you can't do that.

488
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,400
That's wrong.
Why can't I do that?

489
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,000
Why can't I, you know, take your
purse?

490
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,000
Why can't I take your wallet?
Why can't I slap you?

491
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,720
Why can't I call you ugly or fat
or you know, all those things?

492
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,720
You tell my 3 and 4 year old
what's objective morality.

493
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,800
They have no idea, but they do
know Shane called me a baby or I

494
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,000
don't know.
It's like they, they're like,

495
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,560
they're like, not about having
this unfair treatment.

496
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,360
Or whatever that's right.
All right.

497
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,440
So key takeaways.
People naturally appeal to

498
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,840
objective morality when claiming
something is wrong.

499
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,360
Objective moral laws point to an
objective moral moral law giver.

500
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,400
We call that person thing this
God because it's got to be he's

501
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,480
got to be non physical.
It can't be made of this stuff,

502
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,960
right?
He's got to transcend this

503
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,600
thing, but he has to be a
person.

504
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,000
It can't be like those platonic,
you know, non physical things.

505
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,720
So so God is that best
explanation?

506
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,320
Nice.
And you have this in here.

507
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,880
I know we're running along on
time a little bit, but man, it

508
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,800
would be nice to do a five part
series on the more argument, but

509
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,960
audience isn't probably there
slash.

510
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,640
I mean, Michael probably would
love to do it, you know, you

511
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,800
know, but you know what I mean.
It's not like maybe the the

512
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,480
forum or the goal of this.
That is good.

513
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,960
I'm glad you where I I missed
that I it's right.

514
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,520
About the key take away.
OK, Oh yeah yeah cuz what I what

515
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,800
I what I was thinking is what I
would consider ourself hopefully

516
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,680
is this edutainment yeah yeah.
So it's, it's educational

517
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,400
entertainment.
And so hopefully we're we're,

518
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,360
you know, people are listening
to us, they're doing a little

519
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:41,800
banter.
We're and we're giving you a

520
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:43,680
accurate.
That's right, yeah.

521
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,440
Thumbnail sketch of what's going
on maybe?

522
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,160
Without reading a textbook to
you.

523
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,560
Right, because you know there
are channels who do.

524
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,960
This, yeah.
Alex.

525
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,400
I think Alex.
I can't remember his last name,

526
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,560
but he's an atheist who seems to
have had a really strong atheist

527
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,000
but seems to be flirting with
coming over to the other side.

528
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:08,600
Very deep, inspiring philosophy,
very deep.

529
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,400
William Lane Craig's.
You can find some of his videos

530
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,960
of debates very deep and
exacting.

531
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,400
So those channels are out there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,200
That's just not, we're trying to
do this in like 30 minutes or

533
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,440
so.
So yeah, we're not trying to to

534
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,920
get down to the academic level
of some of these.

535
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,800
So I'm sure there are probably
some academic responses, but you

536
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:36,120
know, I've read Oxford Press's
you know, thing on the problem

537
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,920
of evil and the the argument for
morality.

538
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,200
I'm sure I've forgotten some of
that stuff, but I think I'm

539
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,920
trying to, I'm mostly
accurately, you know, depicting

540
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,440
that.
So hopefully if there's

541
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,160
something I've missed.
Yep, honestly, that would be

542
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,400
helpful and then we could get
whether we agree or disagree,

543
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,560
we're at least engaging with
things accurately.

544
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,280
That's right.
And the talk show host, not Greg

545
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,480
Kopel.
What's He's the Jewish guy,

546
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,880
Dennis Prager.
Oh yeah.

547
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,680
That's one of his mantras is
clarity, not necessarily

548
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,880
agreement.
That's good.

549
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,200
So let's clarify what we mean
and and if we're misrepresenting

550
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,480
something, you know, we want to
hear that.

551
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,120
I love it.
That's one comment.

552
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,880
That's one comment.
We probably I have a whole.

553
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,840
The second one is even longer.
Even longer.

554
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,200
So that's I was going to say
we're at kind of the 31 we're.

555
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,160
At that that time frame, so we
probably should do the next

556
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,200
comment in another.
Session.

557
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,920
I think that sounds fantastic.
We got this cool guy commenting

558
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,320
on this too.
This Kobe Forever, 08/2.

559
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,760
Four.
Yeah, Kobe forever.

560
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Who could?
Who is that guy?

561
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,800
I love it that that was good
though, 'cause I, I, we do want

562
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,600
to be fair and, you know,
objective and do things we want

563
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,080
to do things well.
So I think that comes.

564
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,400
I'm hoping for more back and
forth on this with Strange Pan

565
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,440
for.
Real yeah, strange pan obviously

566
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:59,040
yeah drop a video type of some
lines whatever, we'll listen to

567
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,560
it because you know we want to
make sure that we are being

568
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,640
objective and not not straw
manning so.

569
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,400
I love it.
Awesome.

570
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,680
Well, anything else you want to
leave the listeners with,

571
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,200
Michael?
No.

572
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,320
All right, that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

573
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,520
Two.
Find us wherever you find

574
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,040
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

575
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:20,720
video cast.