Are Miracles Rational?

1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,120
Hey, Zach.
Michael.

2
00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,080
Oh, boy.
First off, you're smiling too

3
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:05,480
big.
I don't.

4
00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:07,480
I don't know where this is
going, but I'm a little worried.

5
00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:13,680
What sorry for those at home or
on you know, even if you're

6
00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,360
watching YouTube.
So I think clay and reformed MD

7
00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:23,200
are probably are are and maybe
corn wraiths Bane.

8
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,320
You know who you are are our
most faithful YouTube watcher,

9
00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,840
so you all just have to catch
this in person at some point in

10
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,280
time.
But I did a thing today.

11
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,640
Oh, what'd you do?
I got a tattoo.

12
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:38,120
No, you did not.
Yes, I did.

13
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:39,800
Razook.
Yes.

14
00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,160
Are you serious?
I am 100% serious.

15
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,560
Wow, it is.
On my leg it's a Jerusalem

16
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,080
cross.
Are you serious?

17
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,800
Yeah.
Wow, he got it.

18
00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,920
There we go.
Man, let's let's get a let's get

19
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,760
a camera zooming in on the
thigh.

20
00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:56,640
That's amazing.
Yeah.

21
00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,400
Where'd you go?
2:30 this afternoon.

22
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,920
Man, I was supposed to go today.
I'll tell you my sad story.

23
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,480
Yeah, let's hear.
It I've got a kid that's sick,

24
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,600
that's a different we let's zoom
past that.

25
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,440
My wife said, please do not talk
about this.

26
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,320
So we'll talk about this later.
But so I'm staying home today

27
00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:15,360
because my schedule's a little
bit lighter today with work.

28
00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,640
It's easier for me.
She's like trying to get in the

29
00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,480
swing of things.
I have my appointment today like

30
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,880
midday.
I emailed them and I'm going

31
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,840
back and forth and I'm like I, I
don't think I'm keeping this

32
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,960
appointments.
Can I make another appointment

33
00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:29,840
and you take my deposit and
apply it to that?

34
00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:31,840
I think they're slammed.
They get back to me like every

35
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,600
two hours 'cause they're so busy
probably.

36
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,640
They get back.
It was, let me just say, it was

37
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:36,640
chaos in there.
Was it cancelled?

38
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:37,920
OK, I'd like to hear your
perspective.

39
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,000
I bet it was.
And they responded like, hey, we

40
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,800
cancelled your appointment.
Just book a new appointment.

41
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,480
I was like, no, you missed my
point.

42
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,920
I want my money credited to it.
Can we do that?

43
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,000
And as I'm doing this, like more
spots are filling up.

44
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,200
There's like less options than
when I first did it.

45
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,120
And I was like, I don't know if
I want to like keep spending

46
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,720
money on this.
And eventually they got back to

47
00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:57,680
me.
They're like, Yep, we'll just

48
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,360
you got you, you pay both 50
bucks, but we'll credit it

49
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,440
towards you.
I was like, great book you.

50
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,080
So I'm booked tomorrow.
And as you know, our boy Clay,

51
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,039
he got he got tatted up today.
And I think you guys have a very

52
00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:11,480
similar tattoo.
I don't want to steal his

53
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,360
Thunder.
So but it looks it looks good.

54
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,880
And I heard Gabe Faust had an
appointment today.

55
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:19,360
So Charles and.
Bible.

56
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,920
Well, let me just say, OK, yeah,
is more than 50.

57
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,080
Oh yeah, no, I looked at the
price Clay.

58
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,920
I didn't see the prices and and
I expected it probably a little

59
00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:29,880
more than. 50 I was like this is
a steal.

60
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,200
Like I didn't 'cause the website
not great at communicating.

61
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,320
These things.
Yeah, but anyway, tell me about

62
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:35,640
it.
This is.

63
00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:37,040
Exciting.
So Chloe went today.

64
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,520
Oh, did she?
Yeah, and I, I and y'all will

65
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,320
have a.
Y'all will.

66
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,480
Not the exact same but y'all
have a similar one.

67
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,760
Oh, is she is she's getting she
did she get the can I could we

68
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:48,880
talk about it or not?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

69
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,120
You can't, Lamb.
No.

70
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,920
She she got the lion.
Oh nice.

71
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,240
On the back of her arm.
Where's she?

72
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,400
I got like right above the
elbow.

73
00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,520
Yeah, yeah, right above the.
She's like, I want it there.

74
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,720
Except for maybe.
Sorry Chloe, if I'm spilling too

75
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:03,560
many beans.
Well, this won't.

76
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,320
Air for another week or
whatever, right or what?

77
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,480
Yes, yes, she got some.
Time.

78
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:06,880
Yeah.
Yeah.

79
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,440
But you know, I'm concerned
about my wedding dress.

80
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:10,560
I'm like, well don't get it
there.

81
00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:11,560
Right.
Yeah, yeah.

82
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,720
But I guess you can always put
foundation or something over it

83
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,640
and not concealer and and do it.
So she went for me, but I was

84
00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,280
not there when she was going
'cause our our appointments were

85
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,280
like an hour or a half apart.
So I think hers is at 1 -, 230.

86
00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,240
Cool.
So I went in.

87
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,320
It's pretty, you know, it felt
like 2 cat claws just kind of

88
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,680
just kind of like clawing into
you.

89
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,080
I thought I would be able to go,
OK, he's making this cross.

90
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,600
Oh, you could like feel it, but
now?

91
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,880
I was like, I could not tell
what was going on.

92
00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,200
I.
Did tell clay this clay was like

93
00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:43,160
I'm I wonder if it's going to
hurt.

94
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,840
I was like, I've heard it's like
dead lifting 510 lbs so you

95
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,520
probably wouldn't understand but
it's clay.

96
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,440
You're much stronger than I am.
But I was gonna get the small

97
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,080
one and they're like, oh, that's
too small for a thigh.

98
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,600
And they wanted me to get like
this Jerusalem cross.

99
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,560
And I was like, no, I'm not or
whatever.

100
00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,240
So I did go up to like the
medium one.

101
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,000
So the one you saw was like the
medium sized, or maybe maybe

102
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,600
there's like a small, medium,
large and extra large.

103
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,000
I got the second largest one.
I mean the second smallest one.

104
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:18,480
I'm so conflicted on what to get
I and I don't know where to get

105
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:19,800
this.
Yeah home groups.

106
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,240
I I was anxiety and I still do
not know what to.

107
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:24,640
This is what I think I'm gonna
do.

108
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,320
I think I am going to get a lamb
tattoo.

109
00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,080
The problem is the bigger lamb
one kind of looks like a dog.

110
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,120
Like some of these are just but
it's fine.

111
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,040
So maybe we should explain these
tattoos.

112
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:38,440
Some context would be good.
Yeah, yeah.

113
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,200
Maybe some context?
So this this tattoo shop is in

114
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,080
the Old City in, in, or it's in
Jerusalem, like right inside.

115
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,280
I think it's the Jaffa Gate.
And it's like they've been in

116
00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:53,160
operation for like 28
generations since. 1300.

117
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,040
So it goes back, yeah, over 700
years.

118
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,280
So and like their oldest and
they use stamps from that time

119
00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:01,680
period that are that old.
Some of them are 300 years old,

120
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,200
some of them are 700 years old.
Everything in between, probably.

121
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,680
So really cool, really historic.
A lot of people when they go to

122
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,160
Jerusalem get a tattoo as like a
pilgrimage tattoo.

123
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,760
That's like a very common thing.
Like if you say I don't know if

124
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,240
it's Rozuk or however you say
it's a common, it's like people

125
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,840
have those Jerusalem cross being
one of the more famous books.

126
00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:21,920
I think their oldest 1 is a
Jerusalem cross.

127
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,800
Yeah.
So mine is the Jerusalem cross

128
00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:27,560
and it has, I think they're
olive branches that go around

129
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,040
it.
And then there's three crowns

130
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,320
for the Trinity.
I like that.

131
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,320
Yeah, yeah.
And then there's the Jerusalem

132
00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,000
star above it, so you can find
that.

133
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,520
So you can look that up and
you'll you'll see the one that.

134
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,440
Goes it's it's really cool and
it's so historic.

135
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,440
Yeah.
So I was debating between

136
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,160
Jerusalem Cross, debating from
the lion, debating from the

137
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,960
lamb, and I'm debating where to
get some of these are small and

138
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,720
like a lot of people get them on
their wrist.

139
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,320
I think that's like some history
tradition.

140
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,440
Like I saw them like
photocopying one.

141
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,920
OK, so a woman wanted it a
little bit larger.

142
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,880
Oh, and so they can change it a.
Little change they they were

143
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,720
able to scale one up.
For her and just not the

144
00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:07,200
stencil, but it's like cool.
Still, it's the design.

145
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,880
Yeah, it's so you're not
physically getting.

146
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,360
Stamps.
Did you physically get stamps?

147
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,280
Yeah, See, that's like so cool.
That's.

148
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,280
Like, yeah, they took the stamp
and he had like, this marker

149
00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,960
that he inked over it, and then
he's like all lining it up.

150
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,480
And then he's like, all right,
go look at it.

151
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,320
I can take that ink off.
Yeah.

152
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Once I do it, I, you know that

153
00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:26,880
ink's not going off.
It's a done deal.

154
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,920
So I don't know.
I don't think I want it on.

155
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,560
Obviously you do not want it on
your arms.

156
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,360
I was like debating do I want it
on my arm?

157
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,840
I don't know if I do.
Chloe's want it mine lower my

158
00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:37,560
leg.
I was like, you know what I want

159
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,160
and if if I want someone to see
it, it's I don't want it so high

160
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,160
that it's like, you know, that's
a little bit feels weird, but I

161
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,680
don't want it so low that it's
just showing all the time.

162
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,720
Yeah.
So it's it's like mid thigh for

163
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,040
me.
So you probably won't see it

164
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,440
unless you ask to see it.
Yeah, I said.

165
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,240
I'm wearing shorts.
Yeah, the the combo.

166
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,240
Hey, you catch Michael on the
Speedo at the pool, you'll see

167
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,240
that.
Jerusalem you will see the

168
00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:05,320
Jerusalem class, but I Unless
something radical changes in

169
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,280
both my body composition and my
mindset, you will not catch me

170
00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:13,440
in a Speedo at a.
Me either so I'm debating.

171
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,560
I think Clay went like mid
forearm on his.

172
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,920
I'm debating I've got like this
Cairo on my right shoulder.

173
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,920
I was debating getting like the
lamb like but well, not it's

174
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,280
it's the problem is the the lamb
is so small.

175
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,640
Yeah, I might get it.
Like blow that.

176
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,600
Thing up.
Yeah, I could blow it up.

177
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,960
I was thinking I'll, I don't
know what looks good

178
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,200
aesthetically.
I'm not a a graphic design kind

179
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:36,320
of person.
Look at the shirt you're

180
00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,720
wearing.
You graphically designed that.

181
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,840
So what I was thinking, I've got
my Cairo and I was thinking down

182
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,840
the road maybe I would get like
a crown of thorns around the

183
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:44,560
Cairo.
I've got nothing.

184
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,160
It's very simple.
Cairo Alpha Omega.

185
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,480
Now I was thinking about maybe
bottom right getting this little

186
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,840
lamb tattoo and then maybe later
down the road getting like a

187
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,480
lion, like, you know, the two
and it kind of goes with cry

188
00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,840
right there.
But not the Razook versions.

189
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,040
But I, I don't know, I kind of
see how it, how it is.

190
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,080
I'm sure they are like great.
My other concern about the lamb

191
00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,680
is like it's so tiny.
Like when they're that small,

192
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,080
sometimes tattoos are hard.
They'll give.

193
00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,680
You the picture of the stamps
that that would be cool that she

194
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,520
took.
Now there, this is the main

195
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,000
case.
There's a there's a smaller case

196
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,400
to the left in this case, it's
on display there that has bigger

197
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,880
stamps.
So I don't, I don't think you're

198
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,760
missing out on those, but
there's maybe like 5 or 6 that

199
00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,040
aren't aren't in this picture.
'Cause really, out of all the

200
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,040
stamps, I don't want any really
with like Jesus on there, that's

201
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,640
like half their stamps, or with
Mary, that's like half their

202
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,080
stamps right there.
Yeah, what about Joseph and Mary

203
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,520
in the Nativity?
Not I don't know.

204
00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:41,799
So Jill's Jill, they do have a
nativity and Jill's all excited

205
00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:43,120
about that.
I was like, you didn't get one.

206
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:43,520
She's.
Like no.

207
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,680
Did she go with you?
No, she's working, but there's

208
00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:48,560
there's people at our school.
So there's a teacher at our

209
00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:51,840
school that two teachers have
been to Jerusalem, one who leads

210
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,840
like trips over there every now
and then, and she's got like two

211
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,960
or three of the Razooks and
she's both of them are going

212
00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:59,840
back.
Oh that's cool.

213
00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,960
You should take take a put it in
the take two or chat Chloe's

214
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,560
tattoo and I'll see what it
looks like right above the

215
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,160
elbow, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

216
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,160
I don't know, I'm like a private
person where I don't like want

217
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,240
tattoos super visible.
I don't have a problem against

218
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,520
it, but I'm just like, I don't,
I'm always like, I don't know

219
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:15,200
you.
Know that's me.

220
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,440
I like, I don't mind having a
tattoo and I don't mind people

221
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,840
seeing a tattoo, but I don't
want to be on display 24/7.

222
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,280
You know, whenever I'm out, you
know, because I'm, I'm thinking

223
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,720
about also getting a Cairo.
Nice, yeah.

224
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,680
So it would be the Cairo, which
is the I think everyone knows

225
00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:37,400
what it is, but it's the X and
the R looks like AP in the in

226
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,640
the be the first 2 letters of
Christ name and then the alpha

227
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,200
Omega.
You have the alpha Omega on the

228
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,800
same.
And then if you were to extend

229
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,440
that row like the stem of it and
then put a Navy fouled anchor

230
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,920
like that's pretty cool, you
know, anchored above, you know

231
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,400
that that kind of.
Stuff are you thinking like on

232
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,960
your chest, on your back?
Probably on.

233
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:56,960
Your back for that one and that
would be cool.

234
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,080
You know, Christopher says he
would love to design.

235
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,000
Oh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's time

236
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,280
waiting.
Oh, that's so cool.

237
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,640
That's like super cool.
You Clay get and then if you

238
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,280
know Kelly Graham from Grace on
the Ashley went he got some when

239
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,840
we were in Israel, he got it
just like that's maybe also some

240
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,360
people I know too.
You know, it's that's like so

241
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,200
cool, but how was it efficient?
I know we're running along but.

242
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,960
The tattooing itself was
efficient.

243
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:30,800
My appointment was at 2:30.
I probably did not get the the

244
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,480
the process didn't start till
probably like three O 5.

245
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,280
Oh yeah, so they're 3. 10 they
were they were behind at that

246
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:38,680
point in time and.
I had appointments.

247
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,080
I had an appointment and there
was a chess lesson I had at

248
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,280
4:00.
But you made it though. 2:30 I

249
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,160
was like, I was 15 minutes late,
but thankfully this is the one

250
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,240
that Jonathan's son was going to
like.

251
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,960
I was like, I'm going to pay for
this lesson, but I want you to

252
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,960
go.
And he reviewed a game between

253
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,440
me and Emerson.
And so I was like, I told them

254
00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,960
I'm like, hey, this was supposed
to start at 2:30.

255
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:03,000
Yeah, it hasn't started at 2:30,
so I might be late.

256
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,320
So if y'all are fine, go start
without me and I'll show up when

257
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:06,800
I get there.
Oh.

258
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,720
That's so cool, I didn't tell
him I was.

259
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,480
Excited too, I just.
Said wait, did you?

260
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:11,640
Have you had this planned for a
while?

261
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,280
I had it planned well.
I was like, man, I might do that

262
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:17,480
one because I didn't know
anything.

263
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:18,720
About it till Sunday night.
Oh yeah, so.

264
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:19,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then.

265
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,400
And then because I, well, let me
say this.

266
00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,200
When I heard you talking about
Rezoos and I heard the teacher

267
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,800
at school, I was like, that is
something I would want to do in

268
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:28,400
the future.
Yeah.

269
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,280
Yeah, It's cool.
When will I get to Jerusalem?

270
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:31,880
Yeah.
But, you know, they packed up

271
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:32,960
and came here.
Yeah.

272
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:34,320
Crazy.
Yeah.

273
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,680
So I was like, this is kind of a
once in life.

274
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,640
It's pretty cool.
You know, unless I'm going to

275
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,920
travel there, you know, you
know, you got to cut hay while

276
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,760
the sun's up.
So I was like, let's figure this

277
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,000
out, you know?
Dude, that is awesome.

278
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,360
Man.
I was so, so surprised.

279
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,960
Wow, that is really cool.
Yeah, mine's like tomorrow

280
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,760
afternoon, a little word, and
mine's later in the day than

281
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,120
yours was, so it's probably
going to be back.

282
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,680
It's actually possible.
It's going to be like mayhem.

283
00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,720
Getting there early and they'll
probably get you worked.

284
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,680
In because they take yeah
walkins they stay at least but

285
00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:02,680
cool nice.
Well, I'm glad I could get my I

286
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,480
was worried I wasn't getting
mine rescheduled like all this

287
00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:07,400
there's like literally like 3
spots to pick from tomorrow when

288
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,160
I signed up so sweet.
Well, that's a 12 minute mantra

289
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,800
right there, but totally worth
it.

290
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,280
It's a miracle.
It was a miracle I got a tattoo.

291
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:22,040
We're talking miracles type Take
two, our second episode, the

292
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,520
philosophy side.
Michael's got to get the

293
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:32,360
philosophical side, so let's
take it to the next level from

294
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,560
the hearts of the low Country in
South Carolina.

295
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:40,880
It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

296
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,760
level.
All right, so miracles, we

297
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:48,040
talked maybe 2-3 Thursdays ago.
Yeah, about miracles from a

298
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,680
theological perspective.
That's right.

299
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,560
And I said then I was like, we
should also look at that, you

300
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:54,560
know, philosophical perspective.
I like that round.

301
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:55,720
It out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

302
00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:02,360
And so we want to kind of
present some of the atheistic

303
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,200
arguments against miracles and
we will do our best at not

304
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,400
strong manning those.
I love it.

305
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:08,520
That's.
Right.

306
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,840
And go through those.
But Alvin Plantida Plantinga

307
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,000
famous philosopher, said that if
theism is true, then of course

308
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,680
miracles are possible.
Indeed, it would be astonishing

309
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,360
if the God of theism had never
performed 1.

310
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,760
Yeah, that's kind of the deal.
Like miracles happened or you

311
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,560
can't explain.
It's like I think you're right.

312
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,320
This is like a don't want a
straw man, but I feel like if I

313
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,720
were an atheist or what you
commonly hear, we can we can get

314
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,000
to more specifics and do a
better job is like then show me

315
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,760
a miracle or it's like, you
know, like you can do these

316
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:39,400
things.
Show me.

317
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:44,960
Or, you know, yeah, yeah.
And if deism is true and if, you

318
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,440
know, God created everything,
then you are living in the

319
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,960
greatest miracle that God
created something from nothing,

320
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,280
right?
So if that happened, then really

321
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,560
a, a snake that's talking.
Not a big deal.

322
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:59,560
Not a big deal.
Not a big deal, yeah.

323
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,640
Everything else, Yeah, becomes a
little bit less crazy.

324
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,240
Even though probably a talking
snake is not the best

325
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,400
translation and interpretation
of what?

326
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,560
Don't try to make snakes good,
Michael.

327
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:11,600
No, I'm just.
I'm not kidding.

328
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:12,480
I think you're right.
Yeah.

329
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,920
All right.
So we kind of did a little bit

330
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,960
of this last one, but just as
review what is a miracle.

331
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,200
It's not an anomaly.
It's not just Providence.

332
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,960
You know it's not.
You know you went through an

333
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,640
accident and survived.
Yeah, not an unlikely scenario.

334
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,400
That is totally explainable.
It's not a what's behind your

335
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,000
ear.
Yeah, Yeah, there's 1/4.

336
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,480
Or the OR card trick or
something.

337
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:35,440
Or yeah.
Yeah, that's right.

338
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,880
It's not magic, it's not
illusions, it's not

339
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,920
preternatural either.
Fancy word.

340
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,320
You know what preternatural
means?

341
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,840
School me.
So preternatural would mean that

342
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,880
it is like outside of nature.
So what we would describe things

343
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,840
that angels do as a credit
naturalist?

344
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,680
It's yeah, it's not natural.
It's outside of our nature, but

345
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,520
it's within their nature to do
that thing.

346
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,160
So.
And this, this actually came out

347
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,320
of the paper I had to write or
yeah, paper and some slides I

348
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,560
put together.
But this, you know, is how I'm

349
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,400
going off of their definition of
things.

350
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:16,960
So.
Yeah.

351
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,960
Very, very good.
So we've got this quote, my

352
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,520
favorite guy, Richard Swinburne.
What's his background, you know?

353
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,760
Yeah.
Did you quote him in your paper?

354
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,160
Is this like, is this from your
paper?

355
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,360
And he was like, oh, very cool.
I may not remember all of the

356
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:31,960
quotes, but you can just read
it, it's good.

357
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,760
Great.
A miracle is an event of an

358
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,640
extraordinary kind brought about
by God and of religious

359
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,360
significance.
And I like that because there's

360
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,080
like a few conditions there that
kind of help paint a picture

361
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,560
that God's got to bring this
about.

362
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,360
There is religious significance.
It's not just random.

363
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,800
And it is an event of
extraordinary, kind of

364
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,320
extraordinary in the real sense
of that word.

365
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,200
Right, right, right.
And I'll just say Richard

366
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,480
Swinburne, William and Craig
refers him a lot.

367
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,560
So I'm familiar with the name,
but I couldn't tell you more.

368
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,920
He is a philosopher of religion
somewhere, maybe in in the UK

369
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,320
somewhere, but don't quote me on
that.

370
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,800
All right, So why are miracles
necessary?

371
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,880
Yeah, what's the big deal,
'cause?

372
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,920
If, if you can show miracles are
not possible, then you defeated

373
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,960
Christianity.
Yeah, 'cause our whole story

374
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,960
revolves around, that's right,
going on.

375
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,800
So without miracles, Bible lacks
credibility 'cause there's

376
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,520
miracles in there, you know,
there's a guy.

377
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,400
It undercuts the veracity right
there.

378
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,520
There's a dead guy that lands on
Elisha's bones and comes back to

379
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,360
life.
Yeah.

380
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,840
What?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you.

381
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,120
Go Jesus claims lack any
validation.

382
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:41,480
He didn't rise from the great
day.

383
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,680
Because this is what gets me is
if you know, some people will

384
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,800
say, I believe the Bible, but
it's like all totally

385
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,920
spiritualized where it's like,
oh, it's like a good story.

386
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,560
His his life lives on in US or
something.

387
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,440
And I'm like, man, I don't want
to believe that.

388
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,480
That's it.
Like there's no appeal, right?

389
00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,640
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

390
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,320
And and ultimately we only have
these kind of here and now

391
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,200
meaning, but there's like no
ultimate meaning.

392
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,760
No ultimate, That's exactly
right.

393
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,200
We talked about the resurrection
collapsing.

394
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,880
Christianity is falsifiable.
Christianity makes a lot of

395
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,440
claims.
If you could stipulate that

396
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,359
someone found Jesus bones in the
grave, guess what?

397
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,720
Christianity is false.
I'm not saying that there's no

398
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,760
God, but there are lots of parts
of Christianity that you can

399
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,880
test and potentially falsify.
They've stood the test of time

400
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,840
for 2000 years.
Although I'm not saying everyone

401
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,480
has, but there's been no knock
down.

402
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,880
Oh, Christianity is obviously
false because of fill in the

403
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,920
blank.
Yeah, that, that's the crazy

404
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,960
thing about the Bible is that it
is a historical record where and

405
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,480
there's, it's a big book out if
you looked at your Bible, very

406
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,360
thin pages crammed where it's
like, you know, you comb through

407
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,000
that and there are, yeah, if you
can prove these things are

408
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,520
wrong, that that goes hard
against the truthfulness.

409
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,920
All right, we got another quote.
I don't know who this is, so

410
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,920
don't, don't ask me.
I assume he's some my, my guess

411
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,800
is he's some German philosopher
Wolf Hart Panenberg said.

412
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,120
The resurrection of Jesus is a
historical event that can be

413
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,920
investigated with the means of
historical research.

414
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,360
So.
I love it.

415
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,160
So, Mr. Philosopher, why are
miracles philosophically

416
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:29,160
possible?
Well, if God exists, then he can

417
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,760
act within his nature and he's
more powerful than we are.

418
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,640
So he can do things that, you
know, if he created all of this,

419
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,760
then he can, he can interact
with it in ways that we can't.

420
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,000
One of the analogies, and maybe
further down here in the notes,

421
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,280
but you know, if we see it
later, we just, we'll just get

422
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,880
over it, is that, you know, a
computer programmer can interact

423
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,280
with his code and do things like
if you were in the code, it

424
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,000
would look like it's miraculous.
You're like, yeah, you're in the

425
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,560
program.
You're like, what's going on?

426
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,720
It's just those programmers
making it, making it happen.

427
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,680
And and So what you're saying
too is the like at some level

428
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,160
the code is not holding the
programmer hostage.

429
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,840
That's right.
So since God is the one who

430
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,960
created what we see, He's not
bound by those laws.

431
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,440
He's not necessarily breaking
those laws.

432
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,320
You can say, is he breaking the
laws of nature or is he outside

433
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,280
the laws of nature?
I don't know that that's a

434
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,720
fruitful conversation.
He's not bound by those laws and

435
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,440
he can act outside of that.
You've got this guy.

436
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,600
I'm not familiar with him.
CS Lewis.

437
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:39,480
Lewis, CS Lewis.
Nice always got away with words,

438
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,920
he says.
If we admit God, we must we

439
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,760
admit miracles.
Indeed, indeed, you have no

440
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,160
security against it.
That is the bargain.

441
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,960
You got to have one.
You can have the other.

442
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,400
Yeah, yeah.
All right.

443
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,320
So we're going to get into some
of the objections here.

444
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,600
And obviously we are not going
to do full academic work on

445
00:19:58,600 --> 00:19:59,400
this.
We're going to give you a

446
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,800
thumbnail sketch of these
objections and why we think they

447
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,840
fail.
And then if you want to interact

448
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,320
and say hey.
Maybe later on.

449
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:06,400
Yeah, Yeah, maybe we've that's.
Good.

450
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,800
We could.
We could expand one down there.

451
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:08,720
That's smart.
I like it.

452
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:16,360
So Spinoza, was this a Jewish
guy in Spain who was forced to

453
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,600
like outwardly convert to
Christianity 'cause he lived

454
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,680
kind of during the.
Spanish imposition, but he was.

455
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,600
Really.
Probably an atheist.

456
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:33,520
He's he is a idealist like Rene
Descartes, but he's on the other

457
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,840
side of the fence.
Renee was the Christian Spinoza,

458
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:41,400
not a Christian, and he made the
claim natural laws are immutable

459
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,160
and therefore miracles are
impossible.

460
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,720
If if laws are in place, they
govern the it's like you, you

461
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,240
can't just Willy nilly.
If the laws are laws and it's

462
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,320
nature, it's not like we can
break the speed limits.

463
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,320
If it's like it rained, the
water cycle is the water.

464
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,840
Cycle if it could be broken then
it's not a law, yeah, type of

465
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,160
thing, right, right.
And of course, we even see, you

466
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,280
know, some of what Hume would
say would go against and we'll

467
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,240
get to what Hume will say in
later would go would go they

468
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,520
invey against this.
But we see like even the the law

469
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,960
of gravity is sometimes still
called the theory of gravity

470
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,840
because we are looking at it and
we observe it over and over and

471
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,560
over and over and again.
But it's not like we are we can

472
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,360
peer into the the things that
actually make gravity work.

473
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,080
Like we know that mass attracts
to each other.

474
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:32,160
We have mathematical equations
that describe gravity, but it we

475
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,840
are, we are describing A
phenomenon we witness over and

476
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,720
over and over again.
So they're descriptive, not

477
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,640
necessarily prescriptive.
And like we said above, if God

478
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,720
offered them, then he can act
beyond them.

479
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:50,920
Yeah, that's that's good for God
to feed A5, for God to feed a

480
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,880
5000 by multiplying loaves.
There's no more violation of the

481
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,200
laws of nature than for him to
create loaves in the 1st place.

482
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,120
Yeah, there you go.
So, you know, he's God.

483
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,560
Do either or.
It's kind of the same thing.

484
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,880
This is John Lennox.
Johnny Boy.

485
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,440
He's a mathematician and
philosopher from Ireland.

486
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,760
He's probably the.
Best people to listen to because

487
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,920
it's called this Irish accent
and tell you about God.

488
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,320
But yeah, that's that's John
Lennox.

489
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,320
Really good.
David Hume, Yeah.

490
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,560
So David Hume, he wrote a lot.
I actually had one professor who

491
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,320
thought David Hume was actually
a devout Christian who wrote.

492
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,920
He was like, I am going to take
your philosophy to the end and

493
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,440
show you how.
Absurd or yeah.

494
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,120
He's the only person I ever know
who.

495
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,800
Yeah.
But I think that was Richard

496
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,760
Howe who who believed that.
But most people take him as an

497
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,720
actual atheist.
Like they take him at his words.

498
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,960
And he had a couple different
arguments.

499
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,520
Well, he wrote a whole book, I
think called Against Miracles.

500
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,960
And so we're going to just kind
of summarize some of the main

501
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,440
ideas out of that.
He would say we have uniform

502
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,520
evidence.
We never have uniform evidence

503
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,960
for miracles, but instead we
have uniform evidence of like

504
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,320
the mundane, like the the
regular, OK, and so, but this

505
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,320
kind of assumes what you what
you want upfront.

506
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:20,160
Like if he's, he's going to
assume that all of our

507
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,280
experiences, not miracles.
Well, the only way you could

508
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,600
come to that conclusion is that
you've already rejected

509
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,160
everything as not a miracle.
That's not from the Yeah, right.

510
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,400
And so this is not necessarily a
great response and we're going

511
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,600
to get we're going to dive more
into some of what he has to say,

512
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,600
John Ehrman said in response.
Humes argument against miracle

513
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,520
is an abject failure.
That's in 2000.

514
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,400
So most philosophers don't buy
into.

515
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,960
I hear this a lot.
I'm not in the philosophy game,

516
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,520
but it seems like a lot of what
Hume did, like that's where

517
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,680
people land, like not where that
one guy who said he's like

518
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,120
trying to prove the absurdity,
but they're kind of like some of

519
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:02,280
his arguments, kind of like
where they lead is not the best,

520
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,080
like even atheist, that kind of
thing.

521
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,080
Admit some of that.
It was really good to kind of

522
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,400
shake up the the thought of that
day and make people reconsider

523
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,960
assumptions, Hume would go on to
say.

524
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,320
Stuff that you could really not
know.

525
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,720
Cause and effect.
Yeah, that's.

526
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,480
Kind of on your cuts.
It's his correlation, yeah.

527
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,920
And the example that he used was
like billiard balls, Like you

528
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,360
see one ball rolling and hit
another ball, and you assume

529
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,440
that this ball caused that other
ball, but you don't really know

530
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,080
that.
You're just correlating this

531
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,560
action with this result.
And So what he's guarding

532
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:43,240
against is the prompter hawk
fallacy where something happens,

533
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,760
therefore you assume that's the
cause.

534
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,480
Correlation is not causation.
But you know, at some level we

535
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,880
got to.
We see billion balls.

536
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,440
I think we can.
Safely assume yeah yeah, all

537
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,160
right probability argument Hume
says evidence for regularity

538
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,080
always outweighs the rare
events.

539
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,520
And so he's he would basically
in conjunction with his previous

540
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,240
thing that we have uniform
experience of the regular.

541
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,920
And then so I have all this
regular experience, regular

542
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,640
experience, regular experience.
Then you try to give me evidence

543
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,360
of of a miracle.
My overwhelming experience of

544
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,600
not miracle will lead me to
almost dismiss out of hand.

545
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,520
I have all of this experience of
not miracles.

546
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,320
Your evidence is not is not
going to be good enough to

547
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,320
persuade me to believe it's an
actual miracle.

548
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,680
Yeah, And I think on a practical
level, I kind of get this like

549
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,760
some some people are always
trying to tell me there's a

550
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,320
miracle and I'm probably more
skeptical maybe than I should

551
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,400
be.
And I'm like really, you know,

552
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,200
and it tends to be the same
people have like all of these

553
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,920
miracles and that can so you
know, but it doesn't, I think

554
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,200
that can that can be true on one
level that most time it's not

555
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,760
miracles, but it to me that's
not like overwhelming that most

556
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,200
of the time it is not miracles.
Doesn't mean maybe some of the

557
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,440
time miracles could happen.
I don't know.

558
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,240
One of the biggest the way, like
one of the ways that we can kind

559
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,720
of show an argument is not good
is if we kind of take it to its

560
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,200
logical conclusion and say it
shows it proves too much and so

561
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,200
therefore it can't be good.
And so a lot of what Hume argued

562
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,360
about miracles is that they're
singular events.

563
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,440
And so a.
One and done.

564
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,440
It's a one and done.
You're not.

565
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,520
And it's like, even if, you
know, you observed it and you

566
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,560
tried to give me the evidence
for it, I mean, I'm going to be

567
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,280
skeptical, you know?
But any singular event now falls

568
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,840
prey to this.
Like Hume's own birth was a

569
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,120
singular event, you know, can we
trust that?

570
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:43,840
Why should I trust that Hume
ever existed?

571
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,760
Like you?
You give me a book that he

572
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,800
supposedly wrote, but there's I
have a whole lot of experience

573
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:51,880
of Hume not being born.
Right.

574
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,040
That one time Hitler like
exterminated the not or the

575
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:56,440
Jews.
It's like that wasn't like

576
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,720
happening a lot.
I don't know.

577
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,880
Yeah, yeah.
So any singular event would fall

578
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,720
prey to that.
So William Lane Craig says if we

579
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,800
were to rule out singular
events, our priority, which is

580
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,560
before we even kind of look at
the evidence, we would have to

581
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,960
give up much of history,
cosmology and even evolutionary

582
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:18,000
biology.
All right, So I, I wanted to

583
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,520
talk a little bit about Bayesian
probability.

584
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,120
There's an equation for
Bayesian's probability.

585
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,400
If you're interested, go look it
up.

586
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,520
Wikipedia has a good article on
it.

587
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,720
We're not going to go over the
equation itself, but we're going

588
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,800
to kind of tell you kind of the
principles that you see in that

589
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,320
equation.
And basically the equation says

590
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,600
that we have to, in order to
determine if anything is true,

591
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,720
we take the background evidence
into account.

592
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,600
Like what's you know, if we have
a lot of background evidence

593
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,040
that birds fly.
Yep.

594
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,600
And you told me the other day
you saw a bird fly.

595
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,320
OK.
Yeah, you're not I'm.

596
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,760
Going to accept that, yeah.
But if I have a lot of

597
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,960
background evidence that tells
me birds don't fly and you told

598
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,040
me a bird fly, then it's less
likely I'm going to believe

599
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,760
that.
And so we have our background

600
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:20,160
evidence and then we have the
evidence of the individual event

601
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,000
that's happening.
I don't listen.

602
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,680
I'm kind of going, not going off
of these.

603
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,160
That's great because I don't
like how when I told chat what

604
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,600
to to write, it didn't follow my
address on chat.

605
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,320
Do better.
So I'm just I'm just going to

606
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:40,160
wing it summary of this.
So basically on Hume's argument,

607
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,040
he's basically really looking at
that background evidence that it

608
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,120
would have a variable on
Bayesian equation and saying it

609
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,920
rules the day.
But Bayes equation shows

610
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,960
mathematically that given proper
evidence of an actual event,

611
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,720
then it can change our
background evidence.

612
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,600
You know, we can go, OK, then we
have to reconstruct it.

613
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,640
And so you can show that even an
unlikely event, if no other good

614
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,240
possibility, good explanations
exist for it, then it you can

615
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:14,720
have a miracle.
Gotcha.

616
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:15,760
OK.
I like that.

617
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,760
That's good.
So it's like looking at it from

618
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,680
more of like an equation
perspective where statistics

619
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,320
like these things.
And you can put actual values in

620
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,440
like and even if something was
very very improbable and

621
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,120
improbable given background
evidence, if it is the best

622
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,480
possible explanation and you
have good supporting evidence

623
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,440
for it, then the equation can
come out to to an improbable

624
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,320
event on the background evidence
still being a probable likely of

625
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,080
that occurred.
I like what we tried.

626
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,600
What we tried to do in the past
is kind of hit these different

627
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,280
areas of this.
So it's like the mathematical

628
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,320
side of it.
I like it.

629
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,840
I see we've got some other
skeptical arguments.

630
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,800
I, I can resonate with this
first one, psychological

631
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,080
explanations because like going
back to my thing, it's like

632
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,760
sometimes people are not
reliable.

633
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,240
Like it's like the crazy people
who like miracles and maybe you

634
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,640
just assume like okay,
hallucinations, that kind of

635
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,760
thing.
Or it's like they really want.

636
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,960
So you're saying you're a
Christian and maybe there's

637
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,080
other Christians who have said
something and you doubt it?

638
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,480
And and maybe it was true, but
I'm like, I'm always like

639
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,600
default skeptic, even if I, if I
don't know you probably it would

640
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,080
mean a lot more if Pastor Joel
or you were like, this is what

641
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,120
happened.
I know you.

642
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,800
You're a logical person.
Either you got caught up in the

643
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,080
moment or this what?
And so I'm still leaving some

644
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,800
doubt.
Even as someone who believes

645
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,640
miracles.
Happy source matters to me.

646
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,280
Yeah.
But like if 500 trustworthy

647
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:46,120
people right all said something
and then some of them died for

648
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,280
if it was a lie, they would know
it was a lie because the people

649
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,280
die for a lie sometimes, but
they don't know what's a lie.

650
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,960
But people don't knowingly die
for lies.

651
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,640
Yeah.
So 500 people did that and they

652
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,360
were trustworthy.
That'd be good evidence that.

653
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,080
Wow.
More than good evidence.

654
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,880
Maybe this there was something
that happened?

655
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,880
Compared to like someone who's
like in a loony bin who's like I

656
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,040
saw, it's like that's a one up
versus 500 people.

657
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,920
I just put this bread in my
toaster.

658
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,280
It came out and it had the
picture of Jesus on there.

659
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,440
You know, it was a miracle.
Do you not believe that?

660
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,600
Yeah.
So I like the way you framed it

661
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,440
because there is Christianity is
not one person saying this

662
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
random thing.
It is it is so much more

663
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,480
thoroughly documented and
attested to.

664
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,360
And so that's, that's basically
what you'd have to say 500, you

665
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,880
know, whatever you know, that
would be that's good.

666
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,760
And there are, you know, enemies
of Christianity, not just people

667
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,600
who are eventually converted,
but people who are never

668
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,360
converted, who said, you know,
in, in history said, you know,

669
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,680
this person who worked miracles
and what, you know, supposedly

670
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,680
rose to the dead or something.
Like even if you wouldn't say

671
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,600
that's enough to attest that
it's a miracle, you'd should

672
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,800
say, well, it's enough that
there was something here that

673
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,400
people weren't just making up.
It was kind of known in that

674
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:16,000
area.
So you can't explain away a

675
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,640
group appearance and this is,
you know, it's come to your

676
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,400
psychological effect.
You know, it's hard for 500

677
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,760
people to have the same, you
know, hallucination.

678
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,320
You know, we don't have any
evidence of that.

679
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,760
You know, other religions
miracles, you got to test

680
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,520
Christianities miracles for
themselves.

681
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,120
You know, you can't.
Just because we could show other

682
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,760
miracles are false doesn't mean
that Christianities are false.

683
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,240
Craig Keener says to dismiss all
miracle claims out of hand is to

684
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,400
ignore the testimony of hundreds
of millions of people worldwide.

685
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,040
And there is a book of well
attested miracles.

686
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,040
And I think he and it may be
this Craig Keener.

687
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,320
I gotta, I, I should look it up,
but from what I'm told, it's a

688
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,560
fairly large book.
And like, all the documentation

689
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,720
is there.
And he just says, here's the

690
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,640
claim, here's the evidence to
support it.

691
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,160
This is what people thought
about it.

692
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,040
And you can kind of like make
your own decision.

693
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,800
Here's the claim, here's the
evidence to support it.

694
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,720
And it kind of goes from, you
know, the 2000 years between US

695
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,400
and Christ.
Yeah, that that's probably

696
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,240
pretty amazing because to your
point too, there, a lot of

697
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,800
people in there are not
necessarily all Christians.

698
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,920
Like, we saw this thing and it
was weird and it was crazy.

699
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,560
And yeah, I I like that a lot.
So what are some counter

700
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,160
arguments that would be like hey
miracles, we can get behind

701
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,160
them?
Yeah, so if you had good

702
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,920
testimonial evidence like you
were saying, someone who's

703
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,960
trustworthy, maybe even from
hostile witnesses, so sorry, I

704
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,040
got it.
So we know like Paul dead set

705
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,960
against it.
Peter denied the Lord Jesus's

706
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,280
half brothers were converted,
and we know that they were

707
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,640
hostile to Jesus.
So there are people who were

708
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,600
were hostile but still were
converted in light of the

709
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,680
evidence.
Miracles can function as

710
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,679
meaningful signs, not just
random stuff.

711
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,760
So we think that miracles
authenticated the word.

712
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,400
We said that they were distinct
from improbable natural events.

713
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,800
And you know, if, like we said,
if theism is true, then you

714
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,679
really shouldn't have a problem
with, Yeah, they kind of go hand

715
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,239
in hand.
Lee Strobel said.

716
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,880
To be an atheist, I had to
believe that nothing produces

717
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,639
everything.
Non life produces life.

718
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,600
Randomness produces fine tuning.
And those leaps of faith were

719
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,920
too big.
So you're not getting away from

720
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,719
like you can't have an equation
for everything no matter where

721
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,480
you land.
Yeah, you got to have some type

722
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,239
of magic, some type of miracle
in order to explain, you know

723
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,040
what we're what we did here.
So again, broad brush here, it's

724
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,480
good we're not, you know, this
is not an accident paper.

725
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,440
So but some of the things that
that Hume and Spinoza kind of

726
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,280
famously, you know, brought up
against miracles and kind of the

727
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,360
framework like, well, how can we
believe in a miracle?

728
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:09,800
Well, we believe that there is a
personal God who can act and can

729
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,520
involve himself in creation.
So.

730
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,120
I love it.
We have Miracles 3.

731
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,480
Maybe.
Maybe a response.

732
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,480
We'll see what it.
Would be a miracle if we do

733
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,640
right.
I love it.

734
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,760
This is good to take 2 miracles,
2 in the books.

735
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,200
Any parting words?
Oh, good.

736
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,200
All right.
That's our take.

737
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,080
Thanks for listening to Take
Two.

738
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,400
Find us wherever you find
podcasts and on YouTube for

739
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,120
those who want to watch our
video cast.