I Think, Therefore I Am | Part 3

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How you doing, Zach?
You hanging in there?

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You know, it's you're I,
honestly.

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I'm here for you.
Great, great season.

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Not a good finish, but I knew it
was.

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I knew it was over as soon as
when you're, we're talking

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Steelers.
If you didn't, if you didn't get

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the subtext.
Here we didn't even have to ask

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if we had a banter because.
I mean, I knew you.

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Probably knew what we were.
Talking.

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It's one of those things.
Steelers offense is pretty.

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We have like 18 tight ends.
Our best tight end broke his

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arm.
A lot of tight ends.

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Turns out it's good to have wide
receivers.

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Our best wide receivers.
It's not bad.

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I think he's he's pretty good.
I don't know.

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I saw him drop.
Dude, it is done.

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Sometimes I know that's so.
One was like a 30 yard dart

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cause like, so we gotta take
whatever we can get and cause

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half of our passes were like
screen passes for like a loss of

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four.
Like for whatever reason, we

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have 4 tight ends.
Johnny Smith is like, I don't

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know, it's it's it's it's a
disaster.

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It's like when DK Metcalf is
missing his shots.

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But I I do say, you know,
Patriots OS won.

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I think a, it's a Monday night
game, so it's a shorter week.

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And BI think we gave 2 Texans
player concussions, including

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their best receiver.
So they're probably not going to

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be there for the yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

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So that's that.
That might be good because there

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was a Texan.
They're best receiver, right?

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Right.
And our best CB is.

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Made out so maybe it so.
Maybe it it's good to have those

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both be out.
'Cause there's no way.

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It's like if you have a
concussion you hate to see.

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Good players miss, but if their
best player's out or if our best

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player's out, then I'm glad to
see their best player out.

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And then I think another guy got
concussed, but it wasn't like as

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consequential as that.
The Texans are not going to be

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easy for the Pats.
It's.

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It's one of those things they
looked CJ Stroud is not good at

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football.
Their defense is good, but their

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offense is.
Bad.

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Yeah, there were some.
It looked like all around bad

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football and and the the better
of the bad teams prevailed.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
honestly.

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The Pats Chargers game looked a
little bit I thought.

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Too.
I mean it was scored more than

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the Chargers.
Yeah, it's one of those things.

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And if it puts it in
perspective, Steelers have like

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the 28th best defense in the
NFL.

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It's not like we've got a good
defense.

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And they couldn't.
I mean, at the end they scored

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some like throwaway points, but
it was like.

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So you think Pats have have
chances?

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I think they should dominate.
Maybe not, maybe not.

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Because everyone I hear they're
getting skittish.

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They're like, I don't know if we
can take it on the Texans.

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And I was like, well, I, I, I
thought better before I started

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hearing everyone else talk.
I mean, I think as long as you

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guys can score, their defense is
good, but their offense is like,

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our defense is really bad, like
really bad.

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And they can't, they don't know
how to like snap a football.

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I think the Pittsburgh can be a
tougher place to play 'cause

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it's, I mean, based on like at
first, but it was like they

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could not like, like, they're
like they.

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Could call that holy water, but.
It was, I have Catholicism, I

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was in now and out.
It's like could not hold on the

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football.
And I've seen see see digital

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play good, but I just don't
think he plays good with even a

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little bit of pressure.
And we didn't really pressure

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like our player.
I don't know, I don't we did not

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play great, but we were like in
the game just because they could

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not put it together.
And I don't know if you saw

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this, he missed like two or
three like wide open passes that

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I'm like.
Stroud did.

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Stroud did like.
Over like, like a thing where, I

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mean, he was on the move.
It wasn't like I couldn't do

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him, but it was like you would
think you could just like loft

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it up and give the receiver.
You don't.

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Have to throw a laser through at
like basically behind him is

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just like 'cause if you're
running, you got to throw it in

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front of him.
It looked like the ball was like

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this, but but I I saw I watch so
much football.

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Yeah, it's hard.
It's.

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All it's all crazy.
So I think you're in good shape

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knowing that you're home.
And if I, my philosophy is like,

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I really think if you guys come
toward 20 points, which is not

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guaranteed in the playoffs, but
it's like if you can get like

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1720, I think you'll be fine
'cause I think they have that

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much as long as their defense
isn't scoring like generating

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the offense.
But it was, what was it?

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I was like, I thought, I didn't
think we were going to win, but

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I thought we had a really good
chance.

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Even going to the fourth
quarter.

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I was like, OK, we just have to
hang around and get like a, you

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know, lucky thing because it was
even like they they could have

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called like a 40 yard pass
interference.

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They didn't call.
They probably shouldn't have

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called it, but it's like you
never know or you know what I

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mean?
It's like I've seen you call

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that before.
I don't think it was pass

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interference, but it's like I've
seen the last, you know, you

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just never know.
Yeah, those, those ones that

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it's like it's Gray and it's
like you could call it or you

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could not call it it.
It's like there's a certain

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level of hand fighting that's
fine.

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And then like you pin the arm
and that's not fine, but

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sometimes it is fine.
It's like it's tough.

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Yeah, my, my take away too.
It's like I walk back and I'm

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like, man, our defense is so bad
even though we generated a lot

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of turnovers.
Like, like, it's weird, but I

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do, I feel I feel bad for Aaron
Rodgers, man.

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I'm like, we should have given
better for him, you know what I

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mean?
Like we let him.

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Down.
I'm assuming he's retiring.

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I hope he doesn't.
I would love him to come back

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and I think he is.
Yeah, but if he if he is his

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LastPass is a pick 6.
I know touchdown is not a

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touchdown.
His last pass is a touchdown

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just to the opposite team.
It's like I've just never seen.

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It's like, man, I look back at
the trip like he just was on

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some bad teams where it's like,
man, if he played his career

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like 10 times over.
Yeah, cool.

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He's got the best like as far as
mobility, arm strength,

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accuracy, lack of it.
He's like if you were building a

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quarterback.
Better than Drake, Drake, Drake

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May.
OK, maybe, maybe in 10 years

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maybe or different, but right, I
think he's like.

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I I.
The only thing he maybe doesn't

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like, I think Brady, I think as
a physical specimen Rogers is

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probably better in every way.
Maybe not like game management,

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like or like maybe even decision
making.

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Even though he doesn't.
Rogers doesn't throw

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interceptions, but he doesn't
take as many risks.

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Rogers seems like he gets in his
head more than Brady does.

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He.
I never looked at Brady and

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thought, man, he's, he's in his
own head here.

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He's he's psyching himself out.
But sometimes I think Rogers is

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like, overthinking things or
like he might be too perfect.

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I don't know.
Yeah.

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He does try to be perfect and
that's probably like to his

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detriment, just take a little
bit more risks.

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And like everyone, man, I, I
feel like everyone has different

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views on him.
When he was like, I'm not

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getting the COVID vaccine, the
world like turned on him and

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like really?
Actually, I turned on him way

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before then.
And then when he said I'm not

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getting the vaccine, I turned
back to him a little bit.

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I was like, OK, he's a, he is a
reasonable guy.

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I've misjudged you all this
time.

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Where is this more sane guy
coming out?

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But.
It's like, man, I feel like if

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he did, like if he just had
better teams, because even like

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in the Steelers game, his best
receiver was like Thielen, who's

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like my age playing up, and that
was his most dependable

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receiver.
I was like Metcalf.

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Not that we would have won, but
it's like he just can't miss

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those, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.

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That, that is, that is a shame.
My take away was I feel bad for

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Aaron Rodgers.
We let him down slash, let's

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just get our offensive
coordinator and our coach out of

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here.
Like I was like more sympathetic

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to Aaron Rodgers, much less to
like that kind of thing.

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The play calling is so bad.
This infographic and it was like

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the and it didn't say hell.
What what's the, what's, what's

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the not limbo, but purgatory of
being a Steeler.

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I know it's like every year it
had this back and forth.

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You're good enough to do this,
but you're, but you're bad

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enough that you lose.
And it was like basically how

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almost every year you make the
the playoffs, but then you lose

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the first round, first round and
it's like you're not bad enough

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to take to get some of those
really good picks, but you're

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also not good enough that you're
you're making any headway into.

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Like we're never going to be a
Drake may like you never get a

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high quarterback just because
we're too good for that.

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But then we're yeah, it's like
you're just like stuck there.

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Our division doesn't help us
because it's a little bit

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easier, I think, to do well in
our division.

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But so and Tom, I don't know
anything about football.

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Like, I don't know strategy and
play calling.

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I'm just like I feel like this
is This is not the answer.

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I bought a book.
It's It may be weird for a

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former head football coach to
say this.

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I saw a book and it's basically
because as my playing experience

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was on the line and a lot of my
playing experience, we were so

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dominant on the line, We didn't
have to rely on the pass.

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And so I, I, I mean, I could
tell you all about dives and

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traps and those types of things
from a power eye formation.

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It's just, it's not what we run
today.

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And so I always felt like even
when I was coaching, I, and when

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they asked me if I wanted to
coach, I was like, I need

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someone who understands backs
and stuff to help me 'cause

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that's not my strength.
But basically I got a book that

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purported that I just came in
today.

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I hadn't looked at it, but it's
from a former San Francisco

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49ers quarterback.
And I've seen him like dicing up

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film.
Like, you know, he has these

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reels where he'll like go
through these plays.

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I'm like, oh, that makes sense.
That makes sense.

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And he's like, and then like, of
course, later he's got this

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book's like this book kind of
lays out all of it for you.

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So, you know, I'm going to read
it and see, see what I learned.

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You know, man, bring it to the
podcast, some XS and OS.

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It's it's one of those things.
It's it's brutal, but man, it's

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like a lot of this, like you're
saying, it's like, I know

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playoffs maybe is always ugly
football, but it some of this

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was like like, yeah, the
Chargers putting up in in this

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era of passing and all this
stuff, it's like it is hard to

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score.
There's a lot.

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Of Chargers rested their
starters to score 3 points.

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Like that's that.
Some of the memes are pretty

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pretty rough on the Chargers
like you.

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Also, watching that game, I was
like St.

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Justin Herbert just says like
running for his life out there,

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like like Aaron Rodgers, like I
feel bad 'cause if he doesn't

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throw it in two seconds, there's
nothing.

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And part of that's his lack of
mobility.

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But it's like, you got a Justin
Herbert is like dying out there.

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I saw a video of basically two
our two defensive tackles were

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it took four offensive lineman
of the Chargers to both of them

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had to be doubled.
Is that insane?

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So.
You have two people sucking up

223
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,240
four of your guarding.
No wonder we got we got all

224
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,640
those sacks and stuff.
So you can tell me if I'm wrong.

225
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,960
I feel like a year ago, maybe to
whatever it was like the

226
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,160
Patriots line was not good.
All this nothing was

227
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,640
coordinated, nothing like even
even and Chris, Chris

228
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,000
Collinsworth, you know, say what
you want about him, I like him.

229
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:28,880
I like him all right.
Too.

230
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,600
Did you see that play?
Now here's the guy, but he was

231
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,160
he was calling out the chargers
coaches.

232
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,840
If you were watching it
basically like you can't

233
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,400
substitute.
Yes, your players are tired, but

234
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,080
the defense is more tired and
you're burning time because

235
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,400
because they did it again after
even said something.

236
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,520
And like you see these 4 lineman
just taking their sweet time

237
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,240
because the defense has, you
know, you can't rush this.

238
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,400
You made a substitution, we can
make a substitution and you get

239
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,160
4 fresh guys out there just
punishing those frontline men

240
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,280
because you wanted to trade out
a receiver.

241
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,160
And my my point was I feel like
Drake Mays like so, so pretty

242
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,720
good and he's really good, but
it's like all of a sudden his

243
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,400
line's like really good.
I feel like I don't know a lot,

244
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,080
but I'm like, if you get any of
these quarterbacks, some are

245
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,000
better than the worst, but it's
like it's like, I don't

246
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,600
understand.
Like if you look at the Bengals,

247
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,280
like they gave all their money
to the receivers and Joe Burrow

248
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,440
terrible because he's getting
sacked all the time.

249
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,720
Like I'm like.
It's gotta be a balance.

250
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,280
It's gotta be a balance.
Yeah, it it's, it's, it's crazy.

251
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,880
The Steelers, we just gave all
of our money to our defense and

252
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,880
turns out did not help our
defense to our offense, but here

253
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,480
we are.
I do have one thing to end.

254
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,840
On please do.
We had at the beginning of the

255
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,240
month scheduled our next D&D
session and I was like, we may

256
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,200
be in the playoffs.
And then I was like, OK, we're

257
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,240
we will be in the playoffs, we
are in the playoffs, we're going

258
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,440
to be playing that weekend.
But I still had a one in four

259
00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,680
chance for the Patriots not to
be playing.

260
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:02,320
Oh yeah, during our schedule.
When are they playing at that

261
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,080
time?
And they came out the schedule.

262
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,520
We're playing Sunday at 3, which
is when right when our D&D

263
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,280
session was.
So we did we.

264
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,160
Thankfully the guys like, OK, we
we'll reschedule.

265
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,720
So cool, yeah.
Yeah, we'll see.

266
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,200
I bet they'll it's interesting.
I always wonder how they do the

267
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:18,760
schedule.
I guess at their East Coast so

268
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,120
early or or I don't why early?
I don't.

269
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,400
Maybe the Broncos are #1 seed.
They got to play the light game.

270
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,160
I don't.
Know, I don't know, but I mean,

271
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,720
3:00 is fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess

272
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,360
there's no 1:00 game.
No, all, yeah, both are three

273
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,640
and whatever 7:00 or 8:00 or
7:30 or something, whatever,

274
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,840
something, yeah and.
That's on Saturday and Sunday.

275
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,440
Saturday and Sunday.
It's just.

276
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,320
Going strong, yeah.
It's, it's, it's it's nerve

277
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,360
wracking a little bit for me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

278
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,960
Texans, man, I think you'll be
fine with them.

279
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,160
I was, I thought the Texans
would be better than they were.

280
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,000
And I know they kind of ended
the game on a strong note, but I

281
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,400
was like, man, we got.
Changed the whole time it was

282
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,400
they had shocked.
Yeah, Towards the end, it's like

283
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,080
they finally overcame and
started putting a lot of points

284
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,640
on the board.
So predictions.

285
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:12,680
We have Broncos playing.
I'm trying to remember who else

286
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,680
is in the AFC.
We should know this.

287
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,280
I know I, I, I, I checked out
with all the on the AFC side.

288
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:23,160
Who?
Who was it?

289
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,680
Yeah, yeah, talk.
Yeah.

290
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,040
Let me look up the the thing.
NFC, we've got some Seahawks and

291
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,560
Niners, we got some.
Who else is NFCI don't even

292
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:33,600
know.
I'm like.

293
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,800
It's the Bears and the let's
see, let's just let's just pull

294
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,480
it up and see, I guess.
And that we're we're doing our

295
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,320
our fans who expect us to have
all this football knowledge of

296
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:51,080
the service and Google's going
to serve me up the 2425 one.

297
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,680
We don't care about the 2425.
There we go.

298
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,360
All right.
You know it.

299
00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,480
I'm just filling the air time,
OK?

300
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,680
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bills and Broncos.

301
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,400
Bills and Broncos.
That's a good game.

302
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,320
Yeah.
So any predictions on that one?

303
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,680
See, I don't think any of these
teams are good.

304
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,080
I think, I mean, I think every
NFL team's got, I think every

305
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,040
team's got a chance.
I think Bills can be good.

306
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,440
I think Josh Allen, like just
wills things the big just

307
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,760
because he can run.
Did you see that like 12 yard

308
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:18,840
tush push?
Oh.

309
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,360
Yeah, I mean, it's fine.
They're the, they're the ones

310
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,680
that were like, want to get rid
of it, and now they're using it

311
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,720
a lot.
I used to be a fan of Josh

312
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,000
Allen.
Not so.

313
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:30,840
Much.
Yeah, Why not?

314
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:32,720
Have we talked about this?
I don't know, maybe we have.

315
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,120
I like Josh.
Allen or maybe we talked about a

316
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,520
little bit at home groups.
Yeah, it just seems like he's

317
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,080
always asking for flags.
He he's flopped a couple times

318
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,880
when I'm like, you didn't get
hit there.

319
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,760
So maybe it just comes with the
the territory.

320
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,640
I just like a clean guy, you
know what I'm saying?

321
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,600
Patriots, Texans.
Clearly the Patriots are winning

322
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:56,920
that one, and we don't have to
ask they.

323
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,160
They should win.
I feel like Broncos are like

324
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,720
good but not good.
Every team's good, but not good.

325
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:02,680
Yeah.
We'll see what happens, you

326
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:02,960
know?
Yeah.

327
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,800
Seahawks.
Niners I I.

328
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,000
Don't think Seahawks?
I mean, I mean, I mean, pardon

329
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,760
me, I think.
I feel like they have two Niners

330
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,200
are like fool's gold a little
bit.

331
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,600
Bears, Rams, I hope the Bears
just demolished the.

332
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,280
Rams, not the Rams, man
Stafford.

333
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,000
'S so good I just don't I.
Oh, I've, I've, I've heard all

334
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,640
these great arguments.
I know we're going along on

335
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,240
this.
Yeah, Yeah.

336
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,520
But you know the this is this.
Is like Mike and Mike, but it's

337
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,720
it's Mike and Zach's sports.
Show much less prepared and

338
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,240
looking up the schedule, but
it's like they're talking.

339
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,880
I've heard like Stafford
truthers and like he should

340
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,520
definitely want to are like,
hey, all the one yard TDs that

341
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,880
have actually harder because you
have less field to work with.

342
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,720
It's more impressive.
You know, it's like you hear all

343
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,880
the arguments, you know, it's
like so funny, you know, yeah,

344
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,040
it's great, you know.
So when do they when do they

345
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,640
announce MVP?
I think they announced it like

346
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,240
right before the Super Bowl
because I remember in Super Bowl

347
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,640
51 that Matt Reeves was
announced as the MVP also.

348
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,720
Known as Matt Ryan, Yeah, Yeah.
Matt Ryan Yeah, yeah, yeah,

349
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,320
yeah.
That's just twice.

350
00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,320
Yeah, it is.
It's great.

351
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,560
I mean.
You just he's so if he can't.

352
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,120
Show up.
I can't remember your name.

353
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,040
You know what I'm saying?
And everyone was talking about

354
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,240
how that was such a disservice.
And they were, they were doing

355
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,520
all these things, these stats
between him and Brady, blah,

356
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,560
blah, blah, blah, blah, man.
Brady only three MVPS isn't that

357
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,200
crazy?
Yeah, I mean, that's a lot.

358
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,040
He wasn't well liked.
Yeah.

359
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,280
Yeah, yeah, it's hard.
It's hard to like once you win a

360
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,480
few, I feel like there is MVP
fatigue, like after a while

361
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:23,720
people don't want to vote for
you.

362
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,640
It's like in all sports, it's
like, OK, they've won it a

363
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,320
couple times, let's get the new
guys something.

364
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,240
But I think therefore I am.
I think therefore I am.

365
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,160
So our third instalment of I
think therefore I am.

366
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,040
If this is the first one, we
will try to quickly give you a

367
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,600
recap and then we're really
going to talk about some of the

368
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,360
tomistic pushback against this
argument.

369
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,520
And I feel like this has been,
you know, probably Doctor

370
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,240
Bridges is not listening to this
podcast, one of my professors.

371
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,520
But if he is, you know, write
us, put in some comments, tell

372
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,200
us, tell us where, where we
missed it.

373
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,040
Because hopefully I, I want, I
lay this out well, but I think

374
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,119
therefore I am.
Let's take it to the next level.

375
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:16,480
Let's fire up that twanga music.
From the hearts of the Low

376
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:21,800
Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

377
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,000
we take theology to the next
level.

378
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,440
All right, so really quick
recap.

379
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,560
Yes.
Episode 1 on this subject, we

380
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,280
kind of talked about how really
Thomas Aquinas was adopted

381
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,840
during the Scholastic period and
coming out of the Scholastic

382
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,040
period into the Enlightenment
slash Renaissance and the

383
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:51,440
Copernican Revolution.
He his science was dropped and

384
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,320
then his philosophy was also
dropped.

385
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,400
And there was this concern
between these two schools of

386
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,840
philosophers, the imperialist
and the idealist, on what do we

387
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,120
trust?
Because we were trusting

388
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,080
authorities before, and clearly
we can't trust authorities

389
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,200
anymore.
So we trust our thoughts or do

390
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,760
we trust what we see?
And they had arguments back and

391
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,480
forth.
And so in the midst of this

392
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,240
doubt, Rene Descartes, also a
mathematician, helped him up

393
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,720
with a Cartesian playing XY
coordinates and all that stuff

394
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,600
he comes up with.
He's really shaken by this.

395
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,080
He's trying to figure out a way
to salvage all of this 'cause he

396
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:34,880
sees it kind of all everyone
doubting.

397
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,640
And so he comes up with this
methodological doubt, which is

398
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,040
what we talked about last time,
where he doubts everything.

399
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:42,840
Very skeptical.
Yeah, he wants.

400
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,160
He wants to know if there is
something like a geometric axiom

401
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,160
that you cannot not agree with,
like it's indubitable, you can't

402
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,520
doubt it.
And he along this way, he's like

403
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,800
considering things like, no, I
could doubt it because of this.

404
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:56,920
No, I could doubt it because of
this.

405
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,640
And really kind of, you know,
talks about the dream state.

406
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,840
Our kind of modern equivalent is
the Matrix movie, like where

407
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,320
you're everything's kind of,
you're not really experiencing

408
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,080
these things, but your senses
are told that they're

409
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,160
experiencing these things.
And so he gets down to the fact

410
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,280
that he is doubting.
And therefore, if he is

411
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,880
doubting, he can't doubt that
he's doubting.

412
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,280
Yeah, you know.
Doesn't prove it's like just

413
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,840
very foundational, like you get,
you get down to the bare bones.

414
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,200
You can cling to that.
And so he doesn't even really

415
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,160
establish he's a a human or he's
an animal or he's living in the

416
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,280
real world.
He just, he establishes the fact

417
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,840
that he is a thinking thing.
And then from there he starts

418
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,600
building up these things.
Well, what do I, if I am a

419
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,240
thinking thing, do I have it
within myself to be to explain

420
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,760
why I exist?
And this is really similar to

421
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,480
what Leibniz would do with his
cosmological argument or his

422
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,840
argument from contingency, that
if anything exists, we can take

423
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,800
that and prove that God exists,
because either that thing is God

424
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,880
or it's something that's
contingent, and it depends

425
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,680
ultimately on something that's
necessary.

426
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,520
I gotcha.
Thinking through this, maybe we

427
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,200
talked about maybe we didn't.
Is there a category or is there

428
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,800
a way to deal with or what would
Descartes say about someone who

429
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:19,240
is like if say there is no
there's some significant

430
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,520
dementia or something.
Are we thinking, Are we not

431
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,040
thinking, is there a category
for this?

432
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,000
Or it's like, hey, that's,
that's that human is different

433
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,680
from a different human or you
know what I'm saying?

434
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,400
Or like if there's some sort of,
or if you're sleep, you know,

435
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,240
unconscious, whatever.
I think Descartes would wouldn't

436
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,640
even be considering other people
at this time.

437
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,320
He's just trying to come up with
something that he knows for

438
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:47,360
himself that he can rely on and
assuming that you exist and you

439
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,640
think you could also rely on it.
But I, I, I think he's doubting.

440
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,120
That's why the there is a
concern from Thomas that you do

441
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,600
end up with solipsism.
Now we said that word last time.

442
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,680
Solipsism is basically the idea
that there's kind of an extreme

443
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,680
form of solipsism that only
ideas exist and nothing else.

444
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,920
Or there's the kind of lesser
extreme that you are a mind and

445
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,440
you exist, but everything that
you're experiencing is like,

446
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,400
like nothing else is real around
you.

447
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,200
Like you're generating you or
something is generating all the

448
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,240
things like you are the only
actual conscious mind in your

449
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,560
world.
And then of course it leads to

450
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,680
some contradictions like this
lady called in one time this

451
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,480
radio show and talking to
philosopher and she was like,

452
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,240
yeah, I'm a solipsist.
So I believe in like they're

453
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,360
she's having conversations with
and like, are you we you know,

454
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,120
all the solipsist should unite
kind of thing and it's just kind

455
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:48,440
of crazy type of thing.
So that that's the concern.

456
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,480
And So what what Renee Decart
was doing is like, if that's

457
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:55,720
where I'm LED, that's where I'm
LED.

458
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,440
Like I know I'm doubting.
I can't.

459
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,880
I don't even know if that Millie
handicapped guy is doubting.

460
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,600
You know, he's just.
Trying to find like this.

461
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,960
Axiomatic proof that can't be
doubted and then build up from

462
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,160
there.
And so then last time we did

463
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,880
talk about how you can build up
from there.

464
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,800
Like what?
And we'll, we'll see some of

465
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,360
this in the notes, but basically
you can build up from there to a

466
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,920
proof that God exists.
And hopefully, you know, we were

467
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,320
kind of rushing at the end last
time, but hopefully the audience

468
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,480
got that, you know, that God
would be something that is the

469
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,600
cause of all being, being
itself.

470
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,240
And then you could use some of
the Aquinas's and some of this

471
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,920
classic arguments that Thomas
would buy into from that to show

472
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,360
that, well, if there is a
necessary being that exists and

473
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,000
he is existence itself, then he
would be a morally perfect

474
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,280
being.
And a morally perfect being

475
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,000
would not be deceptive.
OK.

476
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,800
Yeah, by definition, yeah.
Yeah.

477
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,640
So if that goes through, then
you can climb your way back,

478
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,640
Alice, out of solipsism.
OK.

479
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,520
And if you can't prove that,
then you may.

480
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,600
If you buy into methodological
doubt, then you may be left

481
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,640
with.
Solipsism.

482
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,120
The classic case of solipsism.
So all right, so let's just go

483
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,280
through our notes and hit these
some of this.

484
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,360
Hopefully I've given you a
little bit of a primer.

485
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,720
So when we talk through it, it
it makes more sense.

486
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,560
But my professor was, you know,
I was always because I loved

487
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,520
Rene Descartes before I ever got
my masters.

488
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,880
And so I would be like, you
know, and then they'd be like,

489
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,640
no, no, Michael, we no, we're
Thomas.

490
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:30,960
We don't buy into this.
That's great.

491
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,880
Yeah.
So it was always kind of this,

492
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,120
you know, back and forth
discussion.

493
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:35,440
I felt like I'm just there to
learn.

494
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,680
But I felt like they he felt
like he was under attack.

495
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,840
I'm like, I'm not, I'm not
attacking.

496
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,680
So what a Thomas would claim is
that Descartes method suspends

497
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,680
belief in the external world.
We talked about that in other

498
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,360
minds.
It's like I was, I keep hitting

499
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:51,280
this thing like your example of
the mentally handicapped guy,

500
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,760
Like we we don't even we don't
even care about that right now.

501
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,760
We're just trying to find out
something that we can do.

502
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,760
Causal knowledge like this
causes this even bodily

503
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,640
existence.
Like the only thing that was

504
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,680
undoubtable was the I am a
thinking thing.

505
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,800
Yeah.
And so then they try to build up

506
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,760
from that way.
But their claim is that there is

507
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,800
no non circular way to establish
the existence of anything other

508
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,600
than the self.
Once you doubt all that stuff

509
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:26,360
away because he only wants to
believe what is clear and what's

510
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,120
the There's a phrase we'll get
to here, but basically that's

511
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,720
clear and undoubtable.
And so once you give away that,

512
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,840
all the other stuff you can't
build back.

513
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,000
Up to it if.
You've already declared that

514
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,840
that's not clear and
undoubtable.

515
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,800
Therefore the method of radical
doubt if taken seriously, cannot

516
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,080
escape solipsism.
And so it is a real concern if

517
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,560
you're if you kind of hold to
this.

518
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,160
And so why is it a concern for
tomist?

519
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,680
Well, knowledge is naturally
world directed.

520
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:05,280
So tomist are empiricist.
We do believe that you learn by

521
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,680
abstraction.
So you you enter, you interact

522
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,880
with something and you interact
with enough, you learn, you like

523
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,200
learn what the properties are.
And we would say that that thing

524
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,360
has the second act of existence
in your mind.

525
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,520
And in a way, you're we are how
we're built.

526
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,960
We can kind of form the
existence of something in our

527
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,640
mind.
It's not going to be exactly

528
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,240
equivalent to what's out there,
but it's enough that we can know

529
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,360
it.
And so if you've given away the

530
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:38,200
world.
Like you're saying, you can't

531
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,920
trust.
It then what then then how do

532
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,920
you know anything?
Intellect is ordered being, and

533
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,880
so the radical skepticism of
Descartes severs our intellect

534
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,120
from its proper object, which is
the world, and then tries to

535
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:55,800
rebuild the world from an
epistemic epistemic.

536
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,440
Is the word.
Vacuum.

537
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,600
So they're saying, Renee, you're
cutting your.

538
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:04,720
Legs out.
Yeah, Yeah.

539
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,920
You're cutting your own legs out
so their their conclusion would

540
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,920
be once you deny direct access
to outward side being, you don't

541
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,920
really have a principled way to
get back to it.

542
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:24,040
But like I said, if we have, if
we have arranged the argument

543
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,440
well enough, we don't just stop
at the.

544
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,480
I think therefore I am.
It's the starting point, not the

545
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,480
end point.
And in his methodological doubt,

546
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,880
Descartes does explicitly
introduce arguments that move

547
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,920
beyond just the self.
So the question is, are they

548
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,400
circular given what he's already
doubted, or can he truly climb

549
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,560
himself back out of this hole?
Yeah, and say things are

550
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,720
circular is circular arguments
aren't always bad arguments.

551
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,440
Like if I say the word of God is
true 'cause God said so.

552
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,680
I mean, is that is that like a
bad argument where like you

553
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,640
shouldn't believe God word or I
mean, it's circular and the

554
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,960
highest authority is almost
always circular kind of.

555
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,680
It depends on how you word it.
Like if you said this book is

556
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,840
the word of God and how do I
know it's the word of God?

557
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,800
Because the book says it's the
word of God.

558
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,040
That might be not a good
argument, But if you said, hey,

559
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,640
God himself told me this is his
word, then that's your then

560
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:20,920
that's not so.
OK, OK, gotcha.

561
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,960
OK, so here's how Descartes
actually tries to escape this,

562
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,120
this hole that he's dug for
himself.

563
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,080
The thinking self exists.
We talked about that, yeah,

564
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,560
Yeah.
And it's not merely a concept,

565
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,840
it's actually an existing thing.
And we gave you the Latin rez

566
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,720
cogitons for that.
And so already pure solipsism in

567
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,280
the idea that ideas are all that
exists is gone.

568
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,520
So at least we have an essence,
some type of substance, a

569
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,200
thinking thing that exists.
That's not just a an idea.

570
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,760
There is something there.
And so then the thinking thing

571
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,680
discovers that it itself is
finite, that it doubts, it lacks

572
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,800
perfections, and therefore,
crucially, it does not contain

573
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,840
within itself the reasons for
its own existence.

574
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,000
Meaning like we've talked about,
it's not like the necessary,

575
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,520
it's the contingent.
Right.

576
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,800
Yeah, it is the contingent.
And so naturally there has to be

577
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,800
a cause for something that's
contingent.

578
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,880
And sometimes you can put
contingent causes as the cause

579
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,240
of other contingent things.
Oh.

580
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,960
Yeah, OK.
But it can't go on infinitum,

581
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,240
yeah.
So there has to be a grounding.

582
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,880
You're just kicking the can that
needs to be accounted for

583
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,560
sometime.
Right.

584
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,840
So at some point in time you
have to get the can to a

585
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,960
necessary being.
So if the thinking thing is

586
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,000
contingent and requires a 'cause
that cause cannot be an infinite

587
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,120
regress of contingent causes.
Therefore necessary being has to

588
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,800
exist and so Thomas wouldn't
have any problem with with this

589
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,200
line of reasoning.
They they might just say you,

590
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,200
you didn't have to go to the
thinking thing.

591
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,080
You could have said your phone
exists and is contingent.

592
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,720
And So what the what the I think
what they really are concerned

593
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,440
with is this his methodological
doubt?

594
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,600
But, and I've and I've said this
to my professor like but you

595
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,280
could just say I am a thinking
thing.

596
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,760
Yeah, and and.
And moving there, Yeah.

597
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,240
Yeah.
I think hopefully you, to me, it

598
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,920
is more true, It is more certain
that I'm a thinking thing and

599
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,640
that I exist than this phone
exists.

600
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,520
Now, I'm not denying that this
phone.

601
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,520
Exist, but it's more certain,
right?

602
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:39,760
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I see.

603
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:45,000
So that I think that's where I
would find comfort in the

604
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,680
Cartesian.
I think therefore I am because

605
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,920
like, I could doubt everything,
but I know that I exist and

606
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,400
therefore I know that God exists
and what I know of what it means

607
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:06,160
to be God, He is morally perfect
and I can trust him and so he's

608
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,000
not deceiving me.
So this person that looks like

609
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,000
Zach, that I think is Zach,
talks like Zach.

610
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,560
Still a Steelers fan for some
reason, you know what I'm

611
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,360
saying?
I can trust that he really

612
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,520
exists and that my senses are
not just being manipulated by

613
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,000
some evil demon.
Yeah.

614
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,320
And so that is the move that
we're going to talk about, the

615
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,920
move that I just made in
conversation that the cart is

616
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,960
going to make.
The CART argues that the

617
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,440
necessary being is infinite,
perfect, omnipotent, omniscient

618
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,240
and crucially, non deceptive.
And that's like definitionally

619
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,880
definition to be necessary.
That's like, you got to be all

620
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,320
those things.
And if you had a being that

621
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,320
wasn't those things, then there
would have to be a being.

622
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,360
So it's.
Got to be perfect in all these

623
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,400
different.
Ways, yeah.

624
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,160
And so because deception arises
from malice or deficiency, and a

625
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,360
morally perfect God would have
neither, therefore God would not

626
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,120
systematically deceive his
creatures.

627
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,280
It doesn't mean that there
aren't optical illusions or

628
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,840
something like that, but system
systemic deception would not be

629
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,640
what a morally perfect being
would would do.

630
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,200
And so this is how we can break
the solipsism, because the clear

631
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,040
and distinct perceptions are
reliable.

632
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,600
And this is where some people
claim circularity.

633
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,040
So we'll get to that in just a
second.

634
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,120
But they are the persistent and
voluntary experience of bodies,

635
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,880
other agents, resistance, order,
and so they cannot be a global

636
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,560
illusion.
Therefore the external world

637
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,160
exists, other minds exist, and
solipsism is fault.

638
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,520
So that's how you would climb
back out of that hole.

639
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:48,120
Now, like I said, a, a Thomas
might say a, a, a purer Thomas

640
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,120
than myself might say we're
relying on clear and distinct

641
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,480
ideas, the fact that I exist to
prove God, and now we're going

642
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,600
to rely on God's existence to
prove clear and distinct ideas

643
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,080
to say that's circular.
Yeah.

644
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,560
Yeah.
And so really, that's not, I

645
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,400
don't think that's what the
cart's doing.

646
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:17,640
He is going to rely on the
cogito to prove God's existence

647
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,320
prior to securing the global
reality of those other things.

648
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,720
So we're going to say, I cannot
doubt that I exist.

649
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,480
Like that's my axiom.
OK, Yep.

650
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,400
My next layer in my proof, as
I'm building on top, is it?

651
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,360
Well, I have to have a necessary
being and then I can get in not

652
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,840
the things that are clear and
distinct, but the things that I

653
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,880
actually doubted because this
was not doubted.

654
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,120
So I'm not using God to prove
that I exist.

655
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,760
I'm using God's existence to
prove that all the external

656
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,720
world and everything else is is
existing.

657
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,000
So.
So it's not really circular if

658
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:58,440
it's phrased right.
Objection to why would how do we

659
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,040
prove that it's a the necessary
being is morally perfect?

660
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:09,440
I've never heard Atomus make
this argument because a true

661
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,560
Thomas would would know that if
you are pure existence, then you

662
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,400
you have to meet.
These qualifications, OK, yeah.

663
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,720
It's like there's no who I mean,
what philosophical branch is I

664
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,040
mean, I'm sure there's out there
that are like, hey, the

665
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,240
necessary cause is this like
evil terrible thing or is it is

666
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,120
possibly pretty aligned in
saying like I mean, I'm sure

667
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,760
there's like offshoots, but you
know.

668
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,120
I I'm.
Because everything I've heard in

669
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,160
like all of our previous.
Stuff.

670
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,720
Most of the people who argue for
God's existence are going to be

671
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,440
from one of the three great
faiths, Christianity, Judaism,

672
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,680
Islam, and so most of them are
going to argue for the moral

673
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,400
perfection of God.
Do you have pantheists,

674
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,480
Panantheists who don't argue for
a perfect God or a personal God?

675
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,600
So like there are variations in
Buddhism and Hinduism, but the

676
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,239
core of both of them is that
everything is an illusion.

677
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,719
And when we when we realize that
we get back to Nirvana and we

678
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,560
actually escape this illusion
over and over again, we can go

679
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,000
back to kind of the all knowing
part of God.

680
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,480
So like we're kind of like the
body of God.

681
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:31,360
So famously, there was a
Buddhist who went to the Alpine

682
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,639
retreat, Francis Schaefer, and
he was claiming that right and

683
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:38,600
wrong weren't real, they were
just illusions.

684
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,159
And Francis Schaefer, like, took
a boiling pot of water and act

685
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,679
like he was going poured on him
and he objected.

686
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:46,520
And he's like, why?
Why are you objecting?

687
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,199
Is that real?
That's pretty good.

688
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,679
Yeah.
And so that kind of helped shake

689
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:54,280
him out of his thought of what
right and wrong was like, you

690
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,960
really believe it would be wrong
for me to scold you and, you

691
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,440
know, particularly maim me with
this burning water, Right.

692
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,080
OK.
That's the beautiful thing about

693
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,520
Christianity.
It's like you pressure test it

694
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,280
and and people agree.
Like some of these ideas sound

695
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,000
so nice, but it just, you know,
rubber doesn't beat the road.

696
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,080
Yeah.
So there might be some folks

697
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,840
like that that might think that
there is no right and wrong.

698
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,560
It's like the people talk about
the sound of one hand clapping

699
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,040
'cause they're trying to get you
out of your Western way of

700
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,240
thinking, but they actually have
to use the laws of logic to try

701
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:29,560
to defeat the laws of logic.
And so yeah, did that answer.

702
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,960
Question.
Yeah, so, but if one were to,

703
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,600
let's just assume that someone
does argue that we've smuggled

704
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:43,160
morality in imperfection implies
limitation, Limitation applies

705
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,720
contingency, and necessary being
cannot be limited anyway.

706
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:54,200
So this necessary being who
essence is, existence itself by

707
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,880
definition has to be morally
perfect, you know, and he wants

708
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,520
the good and the good is the
one, and the one is true.

709
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,000
So, you know, all of those
things that Thomas would

710
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,520
normally argue for.
So that one is in my notes, but

711
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,200
I I haven't heard.
That would be made.

712
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,880
And then the last objection is
we're doing epistemology before

713
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,520
metaphysics, and that's
backwards.

714
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,920
So Thomas argue, you must
already trust your cognitive

715
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,280
faculties to reason at all.
Descartes doubt is

716
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,800
performatively inconsistent.
And the reply is that

717
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,920
methodological doubt is not
global skepticism.

718
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,800
It is controlled philosophical
exercise.

719
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,320
We're like, all right, I see all
these things.

720
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,160
I'd probably believe most of
it's here.

721
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But do I it's, it's a certainty

722
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,000
thing, you know, whereas you
know, you could know something

723
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,880
you'd have, you know, most of
the time in philosophy,

724
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:51,520
knowledge is defined by a true
justified belief.

725
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,040
Now, there are Gettier problems
for anyone listening that show

726
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,080
some exceptions to that where
people think where people do

727
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,600
have true justified belief.
But we would say in these

728
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,600
exception cases, it's not
actually knowledge.

729
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,520
I just say that for all the
philosophers out there listening

730
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,120
for the non philosophers, we'll
just go with true justified

731
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,720
belief.
And so you could believe that

732
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:21,800
you're, you know, you're going
on a plane and it's going to

733
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,240
take you from point A to point
B.

734
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,920
It's justified and it turns out
it's true.

735
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,320
But so you have, we would call
that knowledge after you, you

736
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,240
know, that plane is going to get
you there and it turns out it

737
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:37,440
did.
But your certainty level, you

738
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,000
know, you may have two things
that you know, but one of them

739
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,280
you're more certain of than the
other.

740
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,480
That's all I'm trying to say
here.

741
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:48,880
And so I think that's where the
impasse comes between the

742
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,880
Cartesian doubt and Thomas is
because I think what the card is

743
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:59,200
going after is just I want to
ramp up my certainty to 100% in

744
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,560
order to now put that down as my
starting point.

745
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:11,880
And so just looking through, so
it is true, if we do make a

746
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:18,120
circular argument or that we
can't show the that God is

747
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,320
morally perfect, then it's
probably, you might show that

748
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,880
you exist and an evil God exists
and that's where you'd be end up

749
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,520
with it.
But I think it's better that I

750
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,040
think you could really say, I
know for certain that I exist.

751
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,120
And now I'm going to use
something like a Leibnizian, an

752
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,800
argument from contingency, which
is basically what Rene Descartes

753
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,440
does here, and build it from
that to, OK, I can, I can

754
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,000
believe that God exists.
I can believe that everything

755
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,320
else exists.
Nailed it man, it's good.

756
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,960
I just my biggest hang up is
taking cues from a guy named

757
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,200
Renee.
I don't know.

758
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,560
Well, you know, he's France, I
think.

759
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:58,800
Yeah, that's right.
That's just French.

760
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,720
So I just offended.
Yeah, it's Renee.

761
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,360
Probably, probably.
We're mispronouncing it like

762
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,320
Croissant and Renee, you know,
he.

763
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,040
Yeah, so.
That's the it's the best total

764
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,360
side when someone orders
something in a different

765
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,160
language and they really commit
and they're not of that people

766
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,560
group.
Like if you're French, go for

767
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,080
it.
I love it.

768
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,920
But it's great where you really
go into it, you know, so good

769
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,040
so.
There, I've seen, you know,

770
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,560
there's these meme battles
between people, you know, this,

771
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,880
this lady who's her first
language is English, but she's

772
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,200
fluent in French.
Oh, OK.

773
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,040
Yeah.
And she's like, you don't say

774
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,520
wah wah, wah wah McDonald.
You say McDonald, you know.

775
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,360
You, you, you.
Yeah.

776
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,800
Not Frank Franco Franco size our
words.

777
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,680
So that's right, it's fine if we
anglicize your.

778
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:45,360
Words.
Yeah.

779
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:46,280
There.
There you go.

780
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,120
I love it.
I think therefore I am.

781
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:53,080
Is this the final?
This is it, you know, pending

782
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,200
all of the questions that we
that we're gonna get from this.

783
00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,400
Honestly, I will say, man, some
of these apologetic ones get the

784
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,880
most bodder, you know, people,
people latch onto these a lot of

785
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,040
times, you know, So I'm curious
if there's some objections or,

786
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,640
you know, maybe people are
rallying around.

787
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,800
You're bridging the gap between
tribes.

788
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,440
Usually both tribes hate you
when you do that.

789
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,920
No, I'm just kidding.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

790
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,920
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
I learned big words today, and

791
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,680
to be serious, that's great.
Yeah, good.

792
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,640
So if you have any questions or
we need to revisit anything, let

793
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,120
us know.
But got anything?

794
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,800
That's all I got.
All right, that is our take.

795
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:31,760
Thanks for listening to Take
Two.

796
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,080
Find us wherever you find
podcasts and on YouTube for

797
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,800
those who want to watch our
video cast.