Nephilim and Cosmic Geography--Recast

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
All right, well, welcome back to

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Take Two.
This is our Thursday edition

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where we talk about crazy
things.

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No, I'm just it.
Just seems that way for the last

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couple here.
We've had a couple questions

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about some of Heiser's work.
So that was our last Thursday

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edition and we wanted to
continue on kind of talk about

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something related to the unseen
realm was this idea.

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Of the this is where it gets
tricky.

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Is it the I always I even say it
wrong all the time.

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I I'm going to try to say the
Nephilim.

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That's how he.
Says it right.

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And I thought there was an E at
the end of it because you

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remember at the very end we were
talking about pronunciation.

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And I guess I was spelling it
wrong because I thought it was

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like IEM at the end.
But it's just it's not spelled

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that way.
So you'll see it in our in our

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title spelled the right way.
But I grew up hearing people

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call them the the Philium.
Yeah.

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You know, it's one of those
things where I don't know why I

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didn't hear about it more.
It's one of those things that if

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you're starting to read through
the Bible, you're hitting this

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like day 2, like, you know, and
it comes up comes up a lot.

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You know, I didn't grow up like
talking a lot about this.

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I was a little familiar with it.
And then you look online and

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there's, there's a lot of info,
whether it's tied to scripture

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or goes off the rails.
It's it's a topic that people

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want to hear about.
Yeah.

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And there are, it's kind of like
we were talking about last

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episode.
There are scriptures that give

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support to some of what we're
going to say, but it's not like

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this is the purpose of
scripture.

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It wasn't the purpose of
scripture to explain everything

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about angels or everything
about, you know, the the unseen

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realm because if it was, we'd
have more information there.

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But we don't.
But it's not like it's not

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there.
So there are things there.

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It's like, it's important enough
to be aware of and know what

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Scripture says, but you can run
off so fast.

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And so I I think that's a great
way to frame it.

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It's not something to be like
someone, well, depending on what

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it is, not something to be super
divisive over depending on how

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crazy it is.
But we'll talk about different

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common views that are perfectly
acceptable.

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And it's really not something to
spend, you know, countless hours

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on two.
That's the temptation, I think

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because there it's so uncertain.
You want to know everything.

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That can be a challenge.
Yeah.

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And yeah, I'm holding, I'm
trying to hold back this

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comment, but I'm I'm going to
make it anyway.

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Do it.
Don't hold Michael my unfiltered

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and raw.
I love Lord of the Rings.

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Never mind, hold it back.
Now go on.

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And other, you know, fantasy
type things.

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And I've asked myself, like
Michael, why are you pulled to

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these things?
I think it's because I'm drawn

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to this, this power like this
cool things.

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But you know, the, the elves in
the Lord of the Rings are like

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this immortal race and they have
some type of, you know, power

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over and I and I think deep down
inside of us, Zach, you may not

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have it, but I'm deficient.
Most of us, there's the desire

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to be like God, to have those,
you know, those attributes of

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God that we don't have right
now.

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And I think maybe that plays
into some of the interest in

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this subject because it's like
we're going to look at

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potentially, you know, where the
flesh, you know, crossed over

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with the spirit world.
And, you know, we, you see

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different stuff like the TV
series Paranormal, paranormal

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and then, you know, all the
horror movies like Exorcist,

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which, you know, I stay away
from because I think most people

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can watch that stuff and they
just go ha, ha, ha, ha.

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I'm like too real.
That's not that is too real.

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Don't mess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So I think that may play into
some of it because we have a

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desire to kind of exercise
those, you know, those powers

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and stuff.
And, and we're, yeah, we're not

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totally physical.
It's, you know, there's

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something there that whatever
degree it is, whether you have,

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you know, are compelled to read
Lord of the Rings or not, I, I

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agree that all of us have that
in us a little bit.

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And that's an.
Intriguing Marvel.

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And that, that's right,
superheroes.

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You know, different ways that
people, you know, we like

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superheroes because they, they
demonstrate things that we don't

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have, you know?
So maybe we can start off

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talking about, I don't know if I
put this in all of our notes,

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but I was going to talk about
pronunciation.

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We kind of hit that even like
etymology, translational use,

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because I think that's
interesting the kind of to frame

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it like, what's this word mean?
Because really it's a Hebrew

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transliteration in a way.
And a literally in Hebrew, I

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think it means the fallen or
fallen ones doesn't really

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specify human spirit, but that
that's the gist.

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And if you were to read the King
James version, I, I think that's

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going to say giants, not
Nephilim.

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Nephilim.
I, I don't know.

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I, I, I know for sure the
Septuagint uses giants.

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I want to say the King James
does, but I guess I should have

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fact checked that too.
But but I think that that kind

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of frames it.
There's even a little bit of

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disagreement when you look at
different translations.

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I think ESP will say, you know,
Nephilim, footnote or Giants to

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kind of throw in these these
different things to think about.

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With all that said, Michael, can
you read for us the text in

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question?
It's Genesis 6/1 through 4:00.

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Yeah, so here we go.
It says, when man began to

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multiply on the face of the
land, and daughters were born to

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them, the sons of God saw that
the daughters of man were

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attractive, and they took as
their wives any they chose.

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Then the Lord said, My Spirit
shall not abide in man forever,

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for he is flesh.
His day shall be 120 years.

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The Nephilim were on the earth
in those days, and also

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afterwards, when the sons of God
came into the daughters of man,

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and they bore children to them.
These were the mighty men of

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old, the men of renown.
I, I think what comes to my

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mind, I, I wrote down some notes
here like just some initial

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observations, things we can be
thinking about even before we

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get into some of the, the, the
major views.

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But you know what, what's going
on in Genesis?

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If we if we zoom out big
picture, you know, you look at

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beginning of Genesis creation,
you have the fall.

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And then really scripture goes
to great lengths to say things

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were not super good, that there
was sin, continually evil.

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And we see that, you know, later
on the tower of Babel, really

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until we get a glimpse of
Abraham and that kind of thing.

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We get a little bit of that here
in Noah later on.

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But this comes immediately
before Noah, Noah and the the

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flood about how after the fall
things things are not going so.

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Great.
And I'll and I also mentioned

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just before this, we have some
very odd, at least odd to our

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modern day, I think genealogies.
And I was like, this is the

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person.
This is the father of all those

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who make music and stuff like
that, like.

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It's kind of weird.
Like so I think that whoever

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wrote that down Moses, or if it
was oral tradition passed down

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to Moses and he wrote down, I
think that I had to think that

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it was meaningful to them.
And and I think that somehow

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through time and culture
differences that we've lost it

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because I feel like there's more
there than that we're probably

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missing.
But I read it and I go, Lord, if

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you want you know me to, you
know, here's some people that's

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great today.
Or whatever it's.

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Saying I don't understand
necessarily everything going on

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here, but you got it down here,
so I want to read it and, you

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know, open my eyes to but so
that immediately proceeds.

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This that is unusual.
Which kind of plays into some of

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the, I think the interpretations
of what this might be talking

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about, which we'll get to in a.
Little bit I think you you

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nailed it.
A couple other things briefly, I

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I think it's interesting in
verse one talks about when man

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began to multiply.
It's like shades of be fruitful

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and multiply.
So that's like a good thing, but

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then it goes off the rails.
You see this language of of

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these people took what they
chose.

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It kind of, you know, your eyes
see something the the fruit in

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the garden.
You see this where we'll talk

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about it later, it says, and the
Nephilim here now and then

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afterwards.
So what's that mean after the

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flood?
A lot, a lot of things that come

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swirling in, in my mind.
And I'll, I'll go ahead and read

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this Numbers prep passage 'cause
you really only, I think you

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only see this specific word
twice in Scripture, like right,

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like this.
And it's good to point out that

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what we what I just read is pre
flood.

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And.
What you're about to read is

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post flood, which also should
play into our understanding of

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what these people possibly could
be.

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That that's exactly right.
And the other thing I think

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that's great to think about are
well, well, maybe we'll get into

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this.
I'll read, I'll read this number

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13 passage starting in verse 28.
It says, however, the people who

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dwell in the land are strong and
the cities are fortified and

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very large.
And besides, we saw the

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descendants of Annek there.
The Amalekites dwell in the land

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of the Negeb, the Hittites, the
Jebusites and the Emirates dwell

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in the Hill Country, and the
Canaanites dwell by the sea and

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along the Jordan.
And there we saw the Nephilim,

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the sons of antics who come from
the Nephilim.

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And we seem to ourselves like
grasshoppers.

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And so we seemed to them, So
what?

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What's going on here in numbers?
What what's going on with with

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Israel?
So they're marching around out

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in the desert.
They've recently been saved from

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Egypt and they've had some
missteps, but not the huge

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misstep that they're about to
have.

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And so Moses sends in these 1212
spies and they come back with

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the the bad report.
And they this is, this is part

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of their bad report.
And and they're scared like they

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see these Nephilim or as we
might see Nephilim.

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But yeah, I think you're right.
The the the calls them giants in

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the land.
Yeah, and and like KJV or other

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and then and so that's where
because some people say, hey,

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size, physical stature is not a
thing.

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This is kind of where they're
like, well, if you seem like

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grasshopper, some people say
it's hyperbole or some people

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know it, you know, all these
things.

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But it is interesting and even
thinking about, OK, I think

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behind the scenes like Moses is
writing both of these accounts,

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you know, So is there some sort
of teaching thing in there as

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well, connecting the dots?
Anyway, the other only other

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text where that is specified
specifically, you can look at

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places like Deuteronomy 311.
It talks about King Ogg and this

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iron bed that was like 14 feet
or something.

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We read a lot about these
Raphaim, Raphaim.

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I don't remember exactly how to
say it, but they kind of make

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this connections of of
descendants and some would even

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point to someone like Goliath
and say.

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Yeah, because he spoke of as a
giant and he has brothers that

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are killed later on.
That's mentioned in Second

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Samuel.
And you know, I think it's, it's

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not very clear.
There's like a textual variant

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between Second Samuel and Second
Chronicles where one of them

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looks like this guy, a different
guy than David, kills Goliath.

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But then it's like, no, this guy
killed a brother of of Goliath.

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But there are these other giants
there, and so maybe they're part

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of this Nephilim as well.
Because is this I, I might be

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wrong on this, but this is
almost if Goliath is part of

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this, I think there's somewhere
that from the descendants of

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Gath and Rafa and people kind of
connect them that after Goliath

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00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,080
killed his brothers, that's kind
of like an ending point in

223
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,360
Scripture.
Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

224
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,640
And maybe I'm not aware of
another one.

225
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,360
Yeah, Yeah.
So if you, if you aren't aware

226
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,280
of another mention of them,
please do.

227
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,480
Yeah, comment, let us know and
we'll look it up.

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00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,400
Well, to me, there are three
traditional views.

229
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,560
We'll run through them briefly.
I can kick off this first one

230
00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:42,280
here where we're really these 3
views try to iron out who are

231
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,040
the sons of God and who are the
daughters of men.

232
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,000
That helped give us some insight
to the Nephilim figuring that

233
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,800
out.
Because that first passage in

234
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,720
Genesis 6 seems to say that
that's how we got them.

235
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,800
So if if they came from this,
let's figure out who the sons of

236
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,360
God are and the daughters of men
are.

237
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,960
So it, in this first view, would
pose that the sons of God are

238
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,000
actually Sethites, people who
came from the line of Seth, this

239
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,560
godly line.
And the daughters of men, by

240
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:13,040
contrast, are Canites, come from
the line of Cain.

241
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,160
And this view kind of takes out
the supernatural in a way that

242
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:19,800
there's not angels, they're not
demons.

243
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,280
The children of this union are
human.

244
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,080
The Nephilim are not
supernatural beings.

245
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,080
Essentially this is, you know,
believers and non believers and

246
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,000
really what they look at is this
genealogy a lot that proceeds in

247
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,920
Genesis 5.
They look at Cane genealogy,

248
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,560
Sess genealogy.
You can, you know, you read in

249
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:42,120
the New Testament that you know
Adam was the son of God.

250
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,200
Use that language in Luke or
Matthew or where wherever we see

251
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,200
that.
And so if Adam is a son of God

252
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,400
and Seth's walking in that maybe
we can see that is what some

253
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,280
people what would like.
Look at that Sethides can be

254
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,680
considered sons of God in in
that sense.

255
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,120
A couple things with that
genealogy that's interesting is

256
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,040
both in Seth's line and in
Keynes line, you have a Lamech.

257
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,680
Lamech is not a good guy.
He's he's extra bad.

258
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,720
You know, 77, you know, all
avenged.

259
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,280
You know what?
However, the the phrase is, he's

260
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:15,480
comparing.
Himself to Kane.

261
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,880
Like, you know how bad Kane was?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

262
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,560
I'm, I'm, I'm worse than that.
And then you have Lamech on cess

263
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,240
line, who was the father of
Noah, who who kind of, you know,

264
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,720
bring, he says, oh, we got some
relief coming to us through

265
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,960
Noah.
You also have Enoch.

266
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,600
We're very familiar with Enoch
and cess line walked with God

267
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,440
and then was no more.
You have Enoch on Kings

268
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,440
Methuselah.
So there's like these parallels

269
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,360
and these connections.
And so some people are like,

270
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,080
this is very intentional leading
up to this.

271
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,880
We've got one line and the other
line and they're, they're

272
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,960
different and they came
together.

273
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,000
And and so I, and what I was
looking at, you know, proponents

274
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,440
of this view would be people
really, you look in church

275
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,680
history, maybe like the three
hundreds onward, it became more

276
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,080
popular.
I was looking at like Augustine

277
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,560
held this view.
A lot of people point back to

278
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,160
him because everyone loves
Augustine, you know, that that

279
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,400
kind of thing.
And so I, I think that kind of

280
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,120
paints a picture just, you know,
simply, I think some people like

281
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,080
that.
It's just humans, nothing major

282
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,680
to see here.
What's the big deal?

283
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,840
Well, yeah, so I, I, I don't
know if you're going to talk

284
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,720
about the pros and cons for each
one.

285
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,800
I, I think a pro of this is it
makes sense.

286
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,560
It is, you know, humans with
humans.

287
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,360
And so that's a defined process.
And the, the thing that doesn't

288
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,280
make sense, I think it's
probably where this one and

289
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,680
probably the next one falls
short is it doesn't really make

290
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,040
sense of how we get them back
again in, in numbers, because we

291
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:50,040
have everyone on the earth,
every, you know, person on the

292
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,880
earth killed except for Noah,
his wife, his three sons and

293
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,000
their three wives.
So if there was something that

294
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:04,840
was wrong or bad about the
lineage of Seth, you know,

295
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,080
marrying into the the lineage
of, of the Canaanites, then how

296
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,080
did we get that that back?
And then it also doesn't address

297
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:20,800
like what if a husband, what if
a male of came married a female

298
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,080
of, of Seth?
So yeah.

299
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,560
And I think it's lacking and I
think people point to it because

300
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,520
it's not supernatural, which are
kind of like, bro, there's a lot

301
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,760
of supernatural that's happening
right right here.

302
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,120
Like come on, like they're
because you can't have a hang up

303
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,120
with it.
Right, right.

304
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,240
Yeah.
So you want me to talk about the

305
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,000
next one?
Yeah, So the next one, and maybe

306
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,720
you can fill out some of this
one, because when I listen to

307
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:52,360
this one like this is not the, I
think the least likely of of

308
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,560
them 'cause it, I, I think it
just lacks explanatory power.

309
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,600
But in this one, the sons of God
are potentially the tyrannical

310
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,599
heroes or human kings from the
line of Lamech, which we were

311
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,680
just talking about.
And then they're marrying again,

312
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,720
I think the daughters of, of
men.

313
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,800
So it.
Yeah, you want to flesh that

314
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,079
out?
For us, I was looking stuff up

315
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:22,200
up on this and I think the the
take was, you know, sons of God.

316
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,520
That's a term in ancient near
Eastern literature that can

317
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,000
point to, you know, semi divine
being maybe a king as a son of a

318
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,160
son of God in a way, a man of
renown.

319
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,760
And maybe it was something like
a warlord or, you know, someone

320
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,720
who has this big harem of women
or they go from town to town and

321
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,800
they take peasants from from all
over and, and they can take, you

322
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,760
know, any woman they desire
because they're conquering

323
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,680
cities.
And some of these proponents

324
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,760
would point to, you know, things
like I, I looked up Second

325
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:56,040
Samuel 713 where, you know, King
Solomon is referred to be like a

326
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,720
son of God.
And so they would say, oh, well,

327
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,240
do you see kings or sons of God
that this could be that.

328
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,760
And so really these sons of God,
these kings are who intermarried

329
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,040
with with humans.
And so if that's the case,

330
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,120
similar thing, the Nephilim.
The Nephilim would be humans,

331
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,040
not supernatural.
And a lot of these proponents

332
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,760
would say, hey, here it doesn't
even talk about giants

333
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:17,720
necessary.
It might be talking about

334
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,440
renowned military might.
It's more of a reputation more

335
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,160
than physical stature and.
But does that make sense of a 14

336
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,240
foot bed?
So that, that, that that, yeah,

337
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,240
maybe it makes sense to Genesis
6 or a fear.

338
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,720
That's like the Weaver's beam or
Goliath.

339
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:38,280
And, and I, I think people who
take to this feel like this term

340
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,560
Nephilim meant something
specific here, but maybe it's an

341
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,280
elastic turn it, it might not
mean the exact same thing.

342
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,040
Or I, I, I don't know where,
where they try to try to argue

343
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,480
because I think that is the
challenge.

344
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,480
Is that OK, There are things
that are not normal going on

345
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,720
with some of these with other,
other people here.

346
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,480
Like I said on the podcast I
listened to, I found this one to

347
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,960
be the least compelling and one
of my daughter's was asking me

348
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,880
about this.
I was like well there's 3 views,

349
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,480
here's one, here's the other.
And honestly I barely remember

350
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,600
the other one because I just
found it.

351
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,400
I found it not compelling at all
to.

352
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,600
Me and I think some would say
some people that like might want

353
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,920
to take a middle ground, might
say, hey, these sons of God,

354
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,560
these warlords or, you know,
people of great military

355
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,600
conquest, they were demon
possessed.

356
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,920
Maybe, maybe they'd be like,
Hey, they have demonic influence

357
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,120
that's making them so powerful.
But they're like, I feel like

358
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:33,760
they're almost hedging their
bets, like they don't want to

359
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,160
commit, you know what I mean?
But so some would say that some

360
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,680
wouldn't say that, but I, I was
seeing that, which leads us to

361
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,440
the most supernatural view, the
last, the last view that that

362
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,320
really looks at the sons of God
as these fallen spiritual beings

363
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,200
and daughters of men, these
human women.

364
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,440
And, and we talked a lot about
this verbiage, sons of God and

365
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,000
what that could mean.
We seen the Psalms that could,

366
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,800
you know, mean angelic beings.
We see this in in Job.

367
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,440
The term by contrast, it's not
used oh, a ton, a ton.

368
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,320
But where it is, there's
precedents for for this.

369
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,960
You see a lot of times Elohim
God used, but sometimes this

370
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,600
this phrase son or sons of God
is a little bit lesser.

371
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,280
Maybe I was looking at maybe
like five times and in the Old

372
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,200
Testament.
And so the the sons of gods are

373
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,400
fallen spiritual beings that
that are taking daughters of

374
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:23,800
men.
And this is where the Nephilim

375
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,320
come from.
What anything you would add to

376
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,400
that, Michael?
I would say so for evaluating

377
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,640
these, I think this has the best
explanatory power.

378
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,600
The the the hiccup that that
probably I and others have is

379
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:45,720
the this idea of how does a
spiritual being, you know, how

380
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,080
does that, you know, with a
woman, how does that all work?

381
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,520
And you know, obviously angels
are spiritual beings.

382
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,560
You say what?
No, wait, my whole, you know,

383
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,440
Abraham saw the, the, you know,
the Angel of the Lord with two

384
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,840
other angels when they came to
to talk.

385
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,040
And, you know, Sarah laughed.
And and of course, you know,

386
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,200
angels are can make themselves
visible, obviously, because

387
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,880
there's visions.
But yeah, there's just a

388
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,520
question of what when they make
themselves visible.

389
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,360
Do they have DNA?
You know, do they have

390
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:22,520
something?
You know, do they have

391
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,640
chromosomes?
Has God-given them the ability

392
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,000
to, you know, make a gamete that
could, you know, serve to be,

393
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,560
you know, half of the the, the,
you know, thing that, you know,

394
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,400
fertilizes the eggs?
Sorry, I couldn't think of the

395
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,280
word I was thinking of.
So that I think that's the

396
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,960
difficulty is like how, you
know, if this happens, God must

397
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,160
have allowed them to do this,
which is fine.

398
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,400
You know, God can allow them to
do whatever, but it just seems

399
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,040
like a very odd thing.
But it seems like it probably is

400
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,040
the best explanation for what's
going on.

401
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,280
It's just like.
The most sense reading the text

402
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,760
anyway, you're not like it's
very weird language.

403
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,040
And I, I think some people point
to, well, Jesus says that angels

404
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,520
aren't, you know, they don't
marry and you'll be able that

405
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,920
that's a in heaven.
And that's, that's different

406
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,760
than what is this is different.
Those are unfallen angels and

407
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,040
they those are angels who have
kept to do what they're supposed

408
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,320
to do.
And these are clearly fallen

409
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,400
angels, who, if this is what the
cases are outside the bounds of

410
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,800
what God in intended for them to
do.

411
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,600
And it does seem, I mean, we, we
can't, we don't get enough

412
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,200
information here.
But you look towards the New

413
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,440
Testament and seems like there's
an awareness of this kind of

414
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:38,520
stuff.
There's, you know, signing of

415
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,520
the book of first Enoch and, and
the Book of Jubilees and this

416
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,920
kind of thing, which, you know,
I would say we don't put all of

417
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,440
our hope and faith in the Book
of Enoch.

418
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,080
I think it's telling that, you
know, maybe Peter and Jude are

419
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,080
talking about it a little bit.
Sure, Yeah.

420
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,800
Should we read those passages?
I I.

421
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,480
I think that would be great if
you.

422
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,040
Want to pull those up?
Now you have this from the ESV.

423
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,280
I I keep doing that, that's like
my go to.

424
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,920
Yeah, that's fine.
And, and for most passages, it

425
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,640
wouldn't, I wouldn't face me.
But back a long, long time ago

426
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:10,080
when I was a youth leader, we
memorized all of the Book of

427
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,720
Jews out of the NSB.
So it's like, this is like,

428
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,440
yeah, yeah, doesn't make sense.
Yeah, yeah, you're like.

429
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,400
Come on.
So how about I read the Peter

430
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,320
one and then you read the Jude 1
so that I.

431
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,880
Great, so you don't have to.
You know, yeah.

432
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,120
So this is second Peter 24, and
it says For if God did not spare

433
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,320
angels when they sinned, but
cast them into hell and

434
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,680
committed them to chains of
gloomy darkness to be kept until

435
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,880
the judgement.
And obviously there's more, but

436
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,960
that's the part we're looking
for is that these angels sinned

437
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:43,040
and they've got, you know, a
special judgment.

438
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,200
Like we know that there's other
angels, you know, we've read the

439
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,400
Book of Revelation, we know kind
of how things end.

440
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,320
But it seems like there's this
group of angels that for some

441
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,840
reason get this special earlier
than normal.

442
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:01,560
Give one more.
Thought on second Peter in in

443
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,280
the midst in the context here,
what is helpful is that Peter

444
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,920
his example, he looks to Noah
and then he looks to Sodom and

445
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,200
Gomorrah like it's like right in
this Genesis time frame, It's

446
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,160
not like this is pulled apart
separately.

447
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:18,000
So it's like, OK, he's talking
about angels that are, are these

448
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,640
angelic angels that are in
Genesis specifically?

449
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,240
So that gives us some insight.
OK, this is probably what what

450
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,880
he's talking about.
And then in Jude verses 6

451
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,720
through 7, Jude writes and the
angels who did not stay within

452
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,600
their own position of authority,
but left their proper dwelling.

453
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,840
He has kept an eternal chains
under gloomy darkness until the

454
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,880
judgement of the great day, just
as Sodom and Gomorrah and the

455
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,720
surrounding cities, which
likewise indulged in sexual

456
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,040
immorality and pursued unnatural
desire, serve as an example by

457
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,720
undergoing a punishment of
eternal fire.

458
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,520
Again, I what I think find is
interesting.

459
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,480
Jude makes that same.
He kind of brings in Sodom and

460
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,560
Gomorrah too.
It's like they're all and and

461
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,240
probably because they're both
alluding to Book of Enoch too.

462
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,640
It's like it's they're making
these connections though that I

463
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,240
think are significant.
Yeah, and there's a, a, a

464
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,200
comparison here, like the angels
didn't stay within their own

465
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,520
position.
And look, Sodom, Gomorrah, those

466
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,800
people didn't, you know, stay
within the bounds.

467
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,080
And it was both of those were
sexual in nature.

468
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,280
So they they trespass these
sexual bounds.

469
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,960
And so it kind of gives more
supporting evidence that maybe

470
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,200
this is what's going on.
And maybe that's why these

471
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,640
angels got separated for, you
know, early special punishment

472
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,840
because, man, they, they really
stepped outside of God's plan.

473
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,560
And, you know, what they did
would have been something that

474
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,160
God allowed them to do within
their nature, but it was, you

475
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,000
know, really forbidden.
And it wasn't like God didn't

476
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,520
foresee this happening, right?
You know, he's omniscient, He's

477
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,360
in control.
So he allowed this for for some

478
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:57,960
purpose, but it was really
beyond, you know, the nature of

479
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,000
what it what was supposed to be.
And so these angels that did it

480
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,200
would have gotten some, you
know, immediate type of

481
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,160
punishment ahead of the the end
of the age.

482
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,440
Yeah, it's it's clearly pointing
to some some of them.

483
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,920
And then I'm going to read first
Peter 319 through 20.

484
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,920
It's a little bit less clear,
but it it talks about Noah and

485
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,080
and it and, and Peter writes in
which he went and proclaimed him

486
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,640
about Jesus Christ and
proclaimed to the spirits in

487
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,840
prison.
That's kind of the the

488
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,840
connection there because they
formally did not obey when Scott

489
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,800
when God's patience waited in
the days of Noah while the ark

490
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,000
was being prepared in which a
few that is 8 persons were

491
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,160
brought safely through water.
It's a little bit less clear,

492
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,600
but it's an ambiguous text that
there's been a lot of discussion

493
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,320
on what did Jesus do when he
proclaimed to the spirits in

494
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,200
prison.
You know, it's tied to Noah's

495
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,520
day that that's helpful, but but
another biblical passage that at

496
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,440
least alludes back briefly.
Yeah.

497
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,600
And it's it's because other
passages that mention Jesus

498
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,240
leading captivity captive.
And I think it's clear that part

499
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,520
of what's going on here is like,
you know, when we read the story

500
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,720
of Lazarus and the rich man and
Lazarus is in the bosom of

501
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,880
Abraham.
And there's this chasm that

502
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:13,400
after the, you know, during his
time that he was in the the

503
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,240
tomb, that he is basically
taking Abraham's bosom, which is

504
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,960
was so-called paradise, but
bringing them, you know, to be

505
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,760
in a more fuller relationship
with him.

506
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,360
But then that you have passages
like this that maybe say that

507
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:28,880
there are other things going on
here that we don't get a lot of

508
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,400
details on, but you know, maybe
a part of some of this.

509
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,720
And one thing just to way back
up, I, I will say 1 I, I put

510
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,920
this in her notes as option 3.5.
There's another view I came

511
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,120
across.
That.

512
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,000
That it it basically is this
last view, but they say that the

513
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,960
Nephilim are not offspring of
this union just happens at the

514
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,520
same time.
If you've read the text doesn't

515
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,040
directly make that comparison,
although if you're reading it

516
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,800
logically, it follows it says
sons of God, daughters and men.

517
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,880
And they're like in those days
Nephilim existed.

518
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,400
And so they're trying to
separate some of that that

519
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,240
union, but saying it's just
trying to provide some context

520
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,640
for the time period it it it
happened.

521
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,240
Yeah.
So that what they're saying is

522
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,800
that we're committing the post
hoc prompter hoc fallacy, which

523
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,000
is basically that this AAB
followed A so that we assume A

524
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,680
caused B.
But that's not always the.

525
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,880
Case it's not it's not at that
explicit in the text.

526
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,920
We just kind of connect, connect
those dots.

527
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,400
A couple things I wanted to
mention.

528
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,440
I alluded to it, but if you and
I don't think this is the end

529
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,200
all be all, but I think it helps
us think about it.

530
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,120
Church history.
If you look at the views

531
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,640
throughout history, just a broad
survey, it seems like the

532
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,280
prominent view was, you know,
sons of God as these fallen

533
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,680
demonic beings until about the
4th century.

534
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,680
So if you look at people like
Justin Martyr or Irenaeus or

535
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,720
Tertilian, they all affirm this.
Then once you hit about

536
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,080
Augustine Athanasius, that time
frame, they both say, oh, no,

537
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,240
this is more Sethites and
Canines.

538
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,400
It's just that's kind of the
shift.

539
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,800
And then if you look at Jewish
history, it seems like what what

540
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,720
we're talking about is the
preferred view is the prominent

541
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,880
view until around the one
hundreds.

542
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,440
And Danny mentioned some of this
too, maybe trying to distance

543
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,760
themselves from Christianity,
not not the supernatural stuff.

544
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,200
They kind of flip their script a
little bit more maybe in the

545
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,240
200.
So a little bit earlier on it

546
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,200
kind of shifted.
But if you read a lot of that

547
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,440
literature, it kind of points to
to this, obviously.

548
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,120
And I was listening to you were
asking earlier if there any

549
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,000
other mentions of the Nephilim
in the Bible that I was aware

550
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,440
of.
And, and I don't know of any,

551
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320
but I was listening to a podcast
and I don't know if Heisler I

552
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,840
bout did it.
I bout did it.

553
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,880
I bout said Heiser.
I don't know if Heiser says

554
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,120
this, but I was listening to a
podcast between another guy who

555
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,280
had his doctorate.
I don't remember his name, but

556
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,280
he was being hosted so and they
were clearly talking about

557
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,480
Heiser's material.
But they suggest that some of

558
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,240
the myths surrounding like Greek
mythology like Hercules and

559
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:06,240
others like these guys who were
were half human, half gods, and

560
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,600
they were able to carry to carry
out these feats that we would

561
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,040
say, oh, that's just mythology.
That was just being, you know,

562
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,760
you know, ramped up and, and
there's a word for that, like.

563
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,480
Yeah, ramped up sounds great.
Ramped up, that's the, that's

564
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,080
the formal, well, I guess
mythologized.

565
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,080
You know, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that become

566
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,960
legendary, but they're
suggesting that maybe that

567
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,120
wasn't what happened.
Maybe there were these Nepheline

568
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,840
that weren't necessarily, you
know, with Philista, you know,

569
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,440
with the Jews.
Maybe there were some in Greece

570
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,280
and they were doing, you know,
so that that kind of gives

571
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,120
weight to some of what they were
worshipping back.

572
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,360
Then yeah, that, that's a good
point too, because I, I've run

573
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,080
across, you know, I, I think a
lot of Christians are familiar

574
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,280
with the, you know, Epic at
Gilgamesh or these other flood

575
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,040
accounts.
And there's a lot of this

576
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,760
literature that it, it's almost
as if Genesis 6 is written as a

577
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,640
response to, hey, maybe there
are some, you know, Nephilim or

578
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,200
some of these, you know,
demigods or, you know, whatever

579
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,400
it is.
But Yahweh it, it's almost like

580
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,920
a response to that being like
this is the real account and

581
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,920
Yahweh is above then he
actually, you know, punishes

582
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,120
them or, you know, whatever.
But I've heard that people

583
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,720
explain some of that too.
A couple other things.

584
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,720
I, I didn't hit it at the top,
but in this text, what I'm just

585
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,280
going to kind of put you on the
spot here in verse 3, Moses

586
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,320
writes in the Lord said, my
spirit shall not abide in man

587
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,920
forever for he is flesh for his
days shall be 120 years.

588
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,320
And I didn't crunch the numbers,
but it seems like, you know,

589
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,800
people, like people lived longer
than 120 years right after that.

590
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,720
So is this like looking forward
or I've heard some people say,

591
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,000
Hey, this is a count.
This is a ticking time bomb.

592
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,880
The flood's going to be in 120
years.

593
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,440
I've heard that.
So you know, I don't know if you

594
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,040
have something specific there to
to that reference.

595
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,760
Yeah, I have taken that to mean
that in some way.

596
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,240
And I've heard there's obviously
lots of different theories on

597
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,760
this.
We can't spell them all.

598
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,600
So but I guess I have taken that
to be there is got to be some

599
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,280
explanation as to why Methuselah
is 969.

600
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,640
I think Adam is like 870 or
something like that.

601
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,880
And then we see this sharp
decline to, you know, by the

602
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,400
time we're cruising in to
Abraham, you know, 180, ninety

603
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,520
years, you know, 100.
I think Moses like 120, that was

604
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,240
pretty old for back then because
he really didn't get starting

605
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,320
get started with the Exodus in
like 80.

606
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,400
So, yeah.
So I've always just taken it to

607
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,760
be that somehow men had longer
life back then and God withdrew

608
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,560
whatever that grace was that was
lying to live.

609
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,320
And so now our days are numbered
are around 100.

610
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,560
And 20 makes sense and you look
and that's like the general rule

611
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,000
might not be exact, but it's
like you look, you know?

612
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,360
So I, I mean, if I don't get
120, I'm going to be like, come

613
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,120
on out, what happened?
What happened?

614
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,960
Maybe it's all.
The you didn't exercise enough.

615
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,720
Our our choices and fast food
and all that, I'm sure.

616
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,280
Well, I think that helps us get
kind of a broadview.

617
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,360
Maybe it's a good time to shift
to this term, cosmic geography.

618
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,560
It's a big one, yeah.
So and I don't again, neither

619
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,560
one of us are what we would call
Heiserites.

620
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:38,920
So I've not maybe he explains
this, but this term is used a

621
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:46,360
lot cosmic geography and what I
think from my exposure to it,

622
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,400
I'm like, why did we name it
cosmic geography?

623
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,160
Why don't we name it spiritual
geography or geography on earth

624
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,200
with spiritual importance.
But, you know, we were just

625
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,440
talking in our last podcast
about this title deed to earth

626
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,520
that Jesus gets and, you know,
somehow, you know, Satan kind of

627
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,199
owned the keys, but you know,
then his death Bureau

628
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,719
resurrection, he gets that back
from him.

629
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,040
And now he's, you know, and and
I think, you know, your Amil

630
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,760
would say, well, Satan's bound
now, but I don't know if that's

631
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,199
the case.
But there seems like there's

632
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,560
some stuff going on there with
Moses's burial.

633
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,679
You know, I was always raised
like, well, Moses was such a

634
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:34,199
great prophet that had his, you
know, bones been buried where

635
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,679
the people could could find
them, then they would worship

636
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,440
him.
And I guess that maybe is fine.

637
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,040
But it, you know, Moses was
hated a lot during his ministry

638
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,880
as well.
But maybe by the time they spent

639
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,000
that 40 years in there, they
came to recognize, OK, this is

640
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,080
God's true prophet.
And and then also this idea of,

641
00:34:56,199 --> 00:35:00,120
you know, Daniel 7 where you
have the the king of Persia

642
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,080
who's warring against and
Michael has to, you know, had

643
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,520
one of them has to come help so
that this Angel can come over

644
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,560
this message that is
interesting.

645
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,000
It's like Tide to right, Yeah.
And then there's this passage

646
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,440
that we read, I think last time
we were talking about this topic

647
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,960
where it seemed like maybe there
were 70 different provinces.

648
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,000
I think this was in Psalms, but
you maybe you.

649
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,640
Remember, yeah, it's I, I, I got
this passage here.

650
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,440
This is not necessarily maybe
about that, but in Deuteronomy

651
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,280
32, this is the song of Moses.
There is this reference when the

652
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,160
Most High gave to the nations
their inheritance, when he

653
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,680
divided mankind, he fixed the
borders of the peoples according

654
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,360
the number of the sons of God,
almost as if these different

655
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,760
sons of God got this
jurisdiction from a geographical

656
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,840
perspective, like the, you know,
Prince of Persia or whatever is

657
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,080
what it seems like it could
mean.

658
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,400
We get that from the Dead Sea
Scrolls.

659
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,320
That's not in the Texas
receptors.

660
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,880
It's actually that that's the
sons of Israel or something.

661
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,320
So it's kind of something that
people look at and they're like,

662
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,720
oh, this is a textual variant
that maybe holds some some

663
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,560
credibility because we kind we
kind of see that a little bit.

664
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000
And then, you know, we look in
first Peter, they left their own

665
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,080
or Jude left their own position
of authority.

666
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,840
Maybe I mean, it's a stretch to
say for certainty, but maybe

667
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,600
they were given authority these
different spheres

668
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,760
geographically.
And, and I think Heiser will

669
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,120
point to, I don't know the
passage, but you know, Dagon,

670
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,960
this false God, and in the
presence of the ark, you know,

671
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,320
it's tipped over and like their
priests like won't even walk

672
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,440
over that threshold because
that's been like conquered by

673
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,600
Yahweh or something like that
cuz they're scared.

674
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,840
And Yahweh has jurisdiction now
of that specific area cuz the

675
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,800
ark is there.
So I don't know.

676
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,800
Yeah, and this podcast I was
listened to that was kind of

677
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,360
talking about this.
They talk about, you know, where

678
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,960
Abraham offered up Isaac.
And then you have Mount Sinai,

679
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,040
which some people have said it
may be one of these places that

680
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,480
has some spiritual things.
And then I've heard people say,

681
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,880
and I, I don't know, I couldn't
say this, but that where Abraham

682
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:09,000
offered Isaac is where Jesus was
ultimately sacrificed, that same

683
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,480
location.
And then we know that like

684
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,400
Jerusalem was, you know,
destroyed and buried and then

685
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,880
like a Pagan idol, a temple was
put over that spot.

686
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,480
And it's like they're trying to
and I think it's cool.

687
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,000
Maybe that's.
True.

688
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:28,760
I wouldn't want to preach this
on a Sunday morning because you

689
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,520
just don't have enough to really
substantiate it.

690
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,800
Like, oh, that may be what's
going on here.

691
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,720
If that's going on, that kind of
gives us some insight into the

692
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:43,760
supernatural inner workings.
I don't know the application to

693
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,080
that like, you know, I don't
know, maybe maybe there's an

694
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,000
application that I'm missing,
but you know, where do we, you

695
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,440
know, where we go from that
maybe you've got.

696
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,320
More I, I, I, I really don't.
I think it's very interesting

697
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,920
and intriguing, but it's hard to
hang your hat and say, man, this

698
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,520
is how it happened.
In the same way that I might

699
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,520
point to the flood and say, Hey,
I know the flood happened and

700
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,800
it's it's a little little bit
different, which which leads us

701
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,840
into this question about
multiple falls in the spiritual

702
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,240
realm.
Great question from was it

703
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:16,680
Ferdinand Ramos?
I'm not, I'm not great at

704
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,520
saying.
Right, right.

705
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,960
Yeah, I think that's so this
this came through.

706
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:26,600
So we can say now that this
podcast is available on every

707
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,040
platform that I'm aware of that
carries podcast.

708
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,600
So if there's one out there that
you're like, man, I have to

709
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,520
listen to this on Spotify
because it's not on my platform

710
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,400
of choice, let us know.
But now you can to include

711
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:39,680
YouTube.
They're starting to have a

712
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,520
podcast thing like, so ours is
listed as a podcast on YouTube.

713
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,760
But yeah, we got a question on
our last video, our last

714
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,840
Thursday video, and it was what
basically, what was our take on

715
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,080
could there be multiple falls of
angels?

716
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,760
And I think Heiser would say
definitely, yes, there could be.

717
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,320
I don't know that we have enough
information.

718
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:10,200
I've always taken and it was
taught that this this passage in

719
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,560
Revelation that talks about the
dragon taking out a third of the

720
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,960
stars and then falling to the
earth like that is, you know,

721
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,720
talking about when when Satan
fell.

722
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:30,000
And again, this is supposition,
but you know, my upbringing was

723
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,800
like there were three Archangel
angels, Lucifer, Gabriel and

724
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,360
Michael, and the kind of each
one of them had a third of the

725
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,000
angels in their charge.
And when Satan fell, his third

726
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,720
fell with him.
I even look him back like

727
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:46,040
there's not a lot of scripture
that would.

728
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:47,640
Support, support that.
Yeah.

729
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,600
Yeah, I think you're right.
Where it's like I have a hard

730
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,200
time saying, oh, to act.
There were seven falls.

731
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,120
I know exactly which one and
how.

732
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,120
And you read some of this, you
know, ancient apocalyptic Jewish

733
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,560
literature, They might allude to
stuff.

734
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,120
It's just like, I'm not willing
to say I know for a fact.

735
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,400
So I almost hate that because
it's a boring answer, but I I

736
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,440
just can't go farther than that.
Right.

737
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,880
And I know that some have again
supposed this is supposition

738
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,240
that when the angels who didn't
fall chose not to fall, that

739
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:20,280
that somewhat solidified their
nature.

740
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,560
It was like a probationary
period and it's like they're

741
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,640
good.
Right now, now that they're in

742
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,120
this state where they're not
able to send, like, you know,

743
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,200
when we get a resurrection
bodies, we're told we're going

744
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:31,800
to be in a state that we can't
send.

745
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,640
And so maybe when they resisted
the the urge to fall, then they

746
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,160
kind of gained that
immutability, at least in that

747
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,520
sense.
They're not going to send.

748
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:46,480
So I know that there are some
theologians who believe that.

749
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,840
So we're just not told whether,
you know, a good Angel today

750
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,920
could decide to fall or not.
But I know, I know, Heiser has

751
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,520
at least dealt with the question
and it's a good question.

752
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,200
And, and I think he's probably
looking at all these ancient

753
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,400
Neary sources and he's like, oh,
it seems seems like it is.

754
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:04,400
It's great.
Yeah.

755
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,320
Great question is things we
don't think about all the time.

756
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,520
I know we're running on the and
their final final moments here.

757
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,440
So what do we do with this is
something that if someone

758
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,760
doesn't agree with.
If someone takes one of these 3

759
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,920
views and I don't like it, I say
hey I'm not going to church with

760
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,120
you anymore.
Well, I would say this is

761
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,160
definitely on the lowest tier of
doctrines that we shouldn't

762
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,760
divide over or get.
You know, you, you don't believe

763
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,800
that the nephalem are this.
I think that there might be some

764
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,040
things going on like, you know,
the Psalm that says, you know, I

765
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,120
lift my eyes up, where does my
help come from?

766
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,920
You know, a list of my eyes up
to the, to the, the hills.

767
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,640
And I've heard this explained
more than one, more than one

768
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,400
way.
But I think what makes sense to

769
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,160
me is that, you know, on these
high places is where they had

770
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:56,480
all of these Ashworth poles and
these alters the the ball and

771
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,600
and stuff.
And so maybe, you know, maybe

772
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,640
there's there's stuff going on
that in our western eyes and

773
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,360
just being, you know, time and
culture separated from what's

774
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,880
being written that we're not
picking up on.

775
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,440
But even though that stuff is
there, I think the main point of

776
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,640
that is still my help comes from
the Lord, you know, So whether

777
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,800
whether someone's looking up to
Jerusalem and saying, you know,

778
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,920
that or they're looking up to
these false idols and saying

779
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,200
that, the main part of that
verse is my help comes.

780
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,840
From the Lord, I I like that a
lot.

781
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,920
And when I evaluate my life, I,
I want to be known for not my

782
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,920
view on the Nephilim either.
Like, you know, like I think

783
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,960
it's important to maybe, you
know, think about that.

784
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,320
Consider scripture.
But it's like, man, I I'm

785
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,720
reminded of Paul talking about
people devoting themselves to

786
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,200
myths and endless genealogies.
It's like, man, you know, major

787
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,920
on the major things, minor on
the minor things.

788
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,960
Give it that perspective.
And I think that's a great

789
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,040
example like help from God, that
that's where we, we, we know

790
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,360
this for a fact.
Let's hang our let's spend our

791
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,960
time living in that reality and
not neglecting this totally

792
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,240
sure, but not making it like
this is the only thing we talked

793
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:01,840
about all the time.
I think it's fine to like, be

794
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,160
interesting, you know, not, not
want to discourage people from

795
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,160
learning more about it.
I'd put it in the Bible.

796
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,280
Yep, exactly.
So we we should talk about it.

797
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,920
But like you said, it's not the
major part of the Bible.

798
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,760
Yep, Yep.
Well, that, that's my take.

799
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,000
That's I just made fun of
Michael.

800
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,080
Well, he I, he said on one
podcast, It's my take.

801
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,320
He's like, oh, I should've said
our take.

802
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,880
So yeah, yeah, that that was
payback.

803
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,840
But that's good.
That's good.

804
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,360
That's our take.
That is our take.

805
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,080
All right, have a good.
One, thanks for listening take

806
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,080
two find us wherever you find
podcast and on YouTube for those

807
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,480
who want to watch our video
cast.