Suffering With the Confidence; God is For Us | Romans 8:28-30

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OK, I'm a little bit still hyped
up.

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It's amazing.
I feel hot actually my back

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feels hot, my legs feel hot, my
arms feel hot.

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If you don't know, I guess
tomorrow our a bonus episode

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will come out and it'll be me in
the cold plunge.

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What a sight to see.
Did I make it 3 minutes?

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I guess you'll have to see.
That's right, we won't ruin it

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here.
Gotta TuneIn.

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Pretty amazing stuff.
I will say some water splashed

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out when I submerged just a
little.

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That was the more that's that's
where I almost started laughing.

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I was like trying to trying to
keep my breath I while he was

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talking, but I was also like
laughing at all the water that

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went out.
I think the water only got up to

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Mike right at my chest, like
right.

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Chest.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think you were maybe a little
bit higher.

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Yeah, normally.
Maybe close to my collarbone but

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wasn't gonna.
Happen for first time.

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That's good enough and I don't
you know your water bill.

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I don't want you to have to fill
up that looking out for me.

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Appreciate it, Michael.
Yeah, I'm impressed.

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Handled that well.
I don't want to call anyone out.

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Yeah, I, I will because I have
seen videos of a couple of other

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people's first time cold plunge
and my goal was if I can do this

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better than Clayton and Caleb,
I, I win.

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That's a dub for me.
And by all reports, wow, it was

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better than Clayton, Clayton and
and Caleb.

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That is amazing.
Be sure to check that out

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Purpose of the cold plunge in
parts.

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Is your body supposed to have
this dopamine response?

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Give me this feel good feeling
and we look at this text that

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we'll be talking about this 24th
sermon in Romans.

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It it should make us feel good.
Although there are tough things

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in there, the overall message is
a very +1.

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And if I'm talking a little bit
faster than I normally do on the

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side on the podcast, it may be
because of that adrenaline rush.

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But yeah, that's it's all good.
I say we take this to the next

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next level from the hearts.
Of the low country in South

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Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level.

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All right, Romans 828 through
30, we were right.

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They're going to be at least
three more sermons in Romans 8.

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So yeah, so.
So that's good.

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Probably a familiar passage to
if you're in the body of Christ,

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if you're outside the body of
Christ, probably John 316 or

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Philippians 413 are your you're
probably the maybe the ones you

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you know and maybe Matthew 71 do
not judge just just the just

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those words.
No more context, just just those

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words.
That's good.

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But you're right. 828
specifically, man, everyone

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loves to to say that and and
really for good reason.

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As we're gonna see Pastor Jill's
sermon title is suffering with

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the confidence God is for us.
And I think that's like what you

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gotta keep in mind as we
navigate that, that God is for

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us who, who could be against us.
That's what's gonna come at the

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end of of this.
We won't cover that today, but

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that's like what we should be
thinking about.

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The spirits work because you
know that this is one of those

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passages where people can get
bent out of shape.

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Yeah, And Speaking of suffering,
we just talked about creation

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groaning, us groaning, and then
the spirit groaning on our

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behalf.
And then we're going to say

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where we come into today's text.
And to start us off, Joel talks

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about Paul and Silas when
they're in the jail.

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I mean, all they had done was
cast a demon out of a girl.

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Seems pretty harmless to me, but
I guess some people lost their

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money.
They were in with the local law

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enforcement throw them into to
jail after being whipped.

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And you know what they do is
they start trying to get a

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lawyer.
They're pretty mad.

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They're yelling.
No, no, they start singing

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psalms and hymns, which is kind
of counterintuitive, but man,

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what a witness to to them and
around of course we know how the

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story ends.
You know, the they're, they're

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broken free, but they don't run.
And the jailer, you know, hit a

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court, you know, from this
testimony, he and his whole

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household come to faith in
Christ.

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Yeah.
And you asked yourself the

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question you should be asking
yourself, this question is how's

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that possible?
How can they do that?

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How do believers across the
globe rejoice when they're faced

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with some pretty, pretty
terrible, pretty tough

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persecution?
And I'm going to say this so you

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remind me, Michael, But hold on
to that Paul and Silas analogy

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because I want to revisit it at
the end, too.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
All right, so like we talked

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about with the section that we
just referenced, Romans 828,

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Paul will say before I consider
that the sufferings and there

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are sufferings.
He's not saying there's not

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sufferings, but that the
sufferings of this present age

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are not worthy.
Worthy.

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That's a huge.
Word we'll talk about.

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Yeah, We're not worthy to be
compared with the glory that is

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to be revealed in US.
And we get this song.

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It will be worth it all.
I was, you know, I was kind of

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singing that song getting into
the cold punch water.

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Like, I guess it'll it'll be
worth it all at the end.

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And so it's good.
Yeah.

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Go ahead.
And like you mentioned,

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everyone's grown, everything's
grown and creation's grown.

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We're growing.
Even the Holy Spirit groans in

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a, in a, in a different way, but
he's groaning on our, our behalf

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of a little bit.
Good question.

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Ask how, how does he grown?
And, and really the passage

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we're looking at today, it's
kind of the answer to the Holy

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Spirit's prayer.
I thought that was a very

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insightful connection that Joel
made.

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Yeah, I thought that was was
very good.

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And if you are in, I mean,
you're probably a Christian if

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you're listening to this
podcast, if you're not welcome

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in and listening, but you've
probably heard this verse as we

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referenced at the very beginning
of the podcast, this verse and

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it may have been used something
like this.

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I lost my job.
Oh, well, Romans 828, God's

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gonna give you a better job, and
God may give you a better job or

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he may not.
That's not the point of this

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verse, because the point of this
verse is ultimately what we're

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going to see is our conformance
to the image of God's Son.

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So Romans 828, the very first
part of it says, and we know

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that God causes all things to
work together for good.

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And we could say, you know, just
leave it like that.

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But Paul doesn't leave it like
that.

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He gives two different
qualifications for that.

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So he's gonna limit this how he
works.

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For you, yeah, it's, it's good
to keep reading.

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So you know what that means
'cause it's easy.

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Like you said, I should get a
better job, then I should get

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all these things 'cause that's
good for me.

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Right, right.
And it's to those who love God,

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that's the first qualification,
and to those who are called

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according to his purpose.
So Joel is gonna talk about

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really the good that God's going
to bring about, and then he's

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going to spend the really the
rest of his time talking about

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these qualifications.
That that is great keeping this

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big picture mindset as we work
our way through the this text.

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So let's talk about about the
good that we know that God

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causes all things work together
for good.

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We know this.
We've got full knowledge.

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He does a great job of, you
know, looking at some of the

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original languages, looking at
the Greek, that it's a past

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action, but it has ongoing
results.

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Good distinction is that's not
how you feel in the moment, but

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something you know to be a
reality, a truth that we can

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kind of cling on to in in times
of trouble.

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Yeah, and it just happens to
coincide like Tim was teaching

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earlier about how our feelings
and we we haven't recorded that

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podcast, but it's coming.
But how our feelings they're

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there, but they should be
instructed by what we know, what

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we believe, how we act, you
know, what we can read from

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Scripture.
They're and they're not our

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ultimate guide.
We should be helping to instruct

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our feelings.
And so this knowledge that God

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is working good on our behalf
should help us when we are in

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the midst of tribals and
tribulations.

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That man, I feel like
everything's falling apart, but

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I know that God is working this
for good.

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How is he working?
We don't always know how he's

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doing it, but we can trust the
promises from a scripture and.

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And I think on our end, what
that implies is you kind of need

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to know the promises.
You kind of need to be in

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Scripture so you can you know,
quote UN quote, you're not

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holding God accountable to his
word, but you kind of are.

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He's going to see the completion
of his word and visiting these

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promises that that's a good
place to be.

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We need to be revisiting where
we know God is sovereign, that

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he's working all things for
good.

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This text is a great one.
And as you kind of go throughout

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Scripture, file some of those a
way for when your feelings don't

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line up with with Scripture, you
can kind of get them back, get

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them back on track.
He mentions this idea of

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synergy, where when things are
working together, it's actually

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more powerful than the
individual parts.

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Right.
Yep.

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And so that's the good.
Now let's talk about the first

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qualification.
The first qualification is

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fairly straightforward to those
who love God.

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And here's a quote by Douglas
Moo.

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Is it Douglas Moo?
Oh, yeah, yeah.

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All I have is D Moo here.
But yeah, it says loving God is

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therefore a qualification for
the enjoyment of the promise of

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this verse, but is a
qualification met by all who

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belong to Christ.
In other words, Paul does not

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intend to suggest that the
promise that all things work for

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good ceases to have the validity
for Christian who is not loving

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God enough.
Loving God sums up the basic

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inner direction of all
Christians, but only Christians.

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That's really comforting because
I think you could read this and

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say, OK, God's working together
for goodbye.

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I need to love him more.
We all do need to love him more.

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But it's not conditional based
on your work.

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It's conditional based on
Christ's work.

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If you're in Christ, you, you
meet this qualification that

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that helps me out at where I can
latch onto this promise and and

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read it for what it is.
No, that's good.

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And 2nd qualification is where
we start getting into some

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potentially controversial,
although we don't see it as

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controversial.
Pretty straightforward.

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Clear as day, but the second
qualification is to those who

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are called according to his
purpose.

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And we're going to give some
illustrations that Joel gave of

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how this kind of works in
practice.

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But then really the rest of this
podcast is going to be given

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over to this second
qualification.

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Like what does it mean to be
called according to his?

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Purpose.
That's a pretty big question if

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you're going to understand this
passage.

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Who is called?
What are the purposes?

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Let's see what verses 29 and 30
tell us on the 1st.

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Like you said, let's look at
some scriptural characters.

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Joseph, very prominent, takes up
a lot of text in Genesis.

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A lot.
Not Exodus.

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Not did I just say Exodus.
No, no, no no.

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I don't want to call anyone out,
but someone was referencing and

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I can see how it could start
referencing Exodus, but Exodus

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really takes over with Moses, so
Genesis is closing out with this

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huge long count of Joseph.
A lot of stuff goes on.

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He's betrayed, he's sold into
slavery, goes to Egypt, he's

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sold again.
Well, sold by his brothers and

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then sold again running with
Potiphar's wife.

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He's imprisoned for if you're
doing the math, 13 years.

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It's not like he was hanging out
there for a weekend and

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eventually he he rises to to
power in Pharaoh's Kingdom.

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When we get to this climatic
verse, really instructive verse.

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A good paradigm to see things
through Genesis 52 verses 19 and

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20.
But Joseph said to them, do not

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be afraid for am I in God's
place?

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As for you, you meant evil
against me, but God meant it for

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00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,360
good in order to bring about
this present result, to preserve

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00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,640
many people alive.
Because his brothers were kind

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00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:02,880
of nervous.
They're like, oh man, Dad's

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00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,920
dead, you're going to come for
us now.

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00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,000
But Joseph rightly seeing God's
hand in all of this and how God

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worked everything for the good
of both Joseph and for the his

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00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,480
people.
And then in that case, you know,

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Joseph kind of sees it.
We don't always get to see it.

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But that's just the Old
Testament.

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There's no New Testament example
I.

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Would say there's other Old
Testament ones, but Joseph's

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00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,640
probably the biggest Old
Testament and Jesus probably the

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biggest New Testament.
Jesus knew no sin.

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He was sinless, but he suffered
greatly.

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Probably the worst way to die.
And you know, just basically

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torture to death while people
sit and and watch you.

246
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,520
But it it was just a big
accident, right?

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Right.
That would be a wrong way to

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00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,600
think about it.
If you had questions about it, I

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00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,000
think like what you're about to
read, Peter kind of sets the

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00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,400
record.
Straight Peter in his sermon in

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00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,240
Acts two-part of it towards the
end, he says men of Israel,

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00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,080
listen to these words.
Jesus the Nazarene, a man

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00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,160
attested to you by God with
miracles and wonders and signs

254
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,480
which God performed through him
in your midst, just as you

255
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,000
yourselves know this man Jesus
delivered over by the

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00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:20,760
predetermined plan and
foreknowledge of God, you nailed

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00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,920
to a cross by the hands of
godless men, and put him to

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00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,240
death.
But God raised him up again,

259
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,240
putting an end to the agony of
death, since it was impossible

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00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,120
for him to be held in its power.
Wow, this verse really does a

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00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,160
good job of showing God's, you
know, sovereignty, His

262
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,040
foreknowledge, His
predestination of this act, but

263
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,560
man's free will and man's
responsibility.

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00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,960
God predetermined it, but these
godless men nailed Him to a

265
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,800
cross.
That, that that's so good.

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00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,480
And in this passage, we're gonna
see very similar language as far

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00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,280
as predetermined, predestined
and foreknowledge.

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00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,600
Because I think, you know, some
people will make the argument on

269
00:13:58,600 --> 00:13:59,560
the foreknowledge side of
things.

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00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,800
But this says predetermined plan
of God in addition to the

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00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,440
foreknowledge, where it's like,
man, God had this plan a long

272
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,000
time ago.
But like you said, these people

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00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,960
were the means that nailed
Christ to a cross, and they're

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00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,120
held accountable for that, where
somehow both of these things are

275
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,040
going on.
Joel uses this illustration by

276
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:20,040
Marshall Shelley.
Yeah.

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00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:21,360
And this is the one I was
thinking about.

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00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,000
I was trying to reference the
other day there.

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00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,720
You go yeah, yeah, yeah, that.
You know, Zach may may not be

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00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,800
able to relate to this because
you don't read fictional books

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00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,960
very often, right That that we
reference.

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00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,720
But yeah, so you ever I well, I
was about to say, all of us,

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00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,080
everyone, most of us have read a
fictional book where things just

284
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,920
seem messy at 1st.
And here is what Marshall

285
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,440
Shelley says about that.
Even as a child, I love to read,

286
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,280
and I quickly learned that I
would most likely be confused

287
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,360
during the opening chapters of a
novel.

288
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,760
New characters were introduced,
the spirit seemingly random

289
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,840
events took place, subplots were
complicated and didn't seem to

290
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,000
make any sense in relation to
the main plot.

291
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,400
But I learned to keep reading.
Why?

292
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,280
Because you know that the
author, if he is he or she, is

293
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,880
good.
We'll weave all of them together

294
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,440
by the end of the book.
Man, Frodo, just you can.

295
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,040
You can.
See my heart strings or?

296
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,480
Tubs.
Eventually each element will be

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00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,720
meaningful.
At times, such faith has to be a

298
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,400
conscious choice.
Even when I can't explain why a

299
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:34,000
chromosomal abnormality
developed in my son which

300
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,080
prevents him from living on
earth more than two minutes.

301
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,560
Even when I can't fathom why our
daughter has to endure 2 years

302
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,280
of severe and profound
retardation and continual

303
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,080
seizures, I choose to trust that
before the book closes, the

304
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,000
author will make things clear.
So this guy clearly arguing from

305
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,960
the lesser to the greater.
You know, we read in books where

306
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,480
things are are wrong, things are
going disarray.

307
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,720
But you know, the authors, they
fix it up.

308
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,600
And this guy experienced some
huge tragedy in his life, had

309
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,000
two kids with birth defects, one
of them dying instantly and one

310
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,600
of them kind of suffering for
two years.

311
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,320
And it's tempting to end that,
go why?

312
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,600
What's going on?
Why?

313
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,560
But we know we can trust this
verse that God is going to use

314
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,640
that for good.
Love that so much.

315
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,680
So that brings us to verses 29
and 30.

316
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,320
I'll read those and these really
answer the question, who does

317
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,520
God call?
The Who and then the what?

318
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,240
What's the purpose of God's
call?

319
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,520
And we'll get into it here,
verse 29 Paul writes for those

320
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,960
whom he foreknew.
He also predestined to become

321
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,960
conformed to the image of his
son so that he would be the

322
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,840
first born among many brethren.
And these whom he predestined he

323
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,000
also called.
And these whom he called he also

324
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,720
justified.
And these whom he justified he

325
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,320
also glorified.
What many have monitored the

326
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,320
golden chain of salvation.
Great.

327
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,040
I was just going to say I.
Was just going to say that

328
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,480
anytime you see this and you can
just, it's easy to verify, but

329
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,480
anytime you see this word
foreknowledge and it's paired

330
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,760
with God the Father 'cause it
happens a couple times outside

331
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,440
God the Father.
But you can just get a good

332
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,760
concordance.
Look up all the places that it

333
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,720
occurs and God the Father's
there.

334
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,760
The object of that foreknowledge
is people.

335
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,680
He knows people from before time
begin, and so that's probably

336
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,200
this.
That's that's part of what we're

337
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,160
going to be talking about is how
does this foreknowledge work?

338
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,360
He foreknew Joel tells us that
is a Greek word Prognoso

339
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,360
prognosis.
I was going to kind of give us a

340
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:51,520
a a written out, but I forgot.
But but it just means that it's

341
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,680
for loved that he knows people.
And we have a note here from

342
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,360
Ventura that says that God
foreknew not merely for Saul

343
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,280
that such ones would put their
faith in Christ.

344
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,880
And if you look at other places
like John 10, it's like he

345
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,560
foreknew us and gave us to the
Son.

346
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,680
And it says, and then in
response to this, God decided to

347
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,800
choose them.
For it is certainly true that

348
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,120
God foresees faith.
He foresees all that comes to

349
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:23,200
pass, but rather, Paul says from
the Father for new or more

350
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,560
literally new in advance, new
from eternity, or for chose or

351
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,560
for loved, so that this
knowledge characterizes an

352
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,480
intimate personal relationship.
That that's so key and I would

353
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,080
encourage everyone to go do that
word study.

354
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,560
We did it in impact when we went
through Romans.

355
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,520
I have our little sheet pulled
up here.

356
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,360
And even when you look at the
word, know most the time when

357
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:47,440
it's in relation to another
human, even not even God the

358
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,320
Father, it's an intimate
relationship.

359
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,680
We know that you know Joseph
knew Mary.

360
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,080
That's a very intimate
relationship.

361
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,880
We read in John 17 this is
eternal life, that they know

362
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,160
you, the only true God.
So to have eternal life, you

363
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,840
need to not just know who God
is.

364
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,720
It's not just the knowledge, but
it's intimate.

365
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,080
If anyone who loves God, Paul
writes in first Corinthians 8,

366
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,960
he is known by God.
I am the Good Shepherd.

367
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,800
I know my own, my own know me,
my sheep hear my voice and I

368
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,320
know them.
And by this we know that we have

369
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,440
come to know Him if we keep his
commandments.

370
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,880
If you say I know him but you
don't keep his commandments,

371
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,280
you're a liar.
I could go on and on there.

372
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,640
It's overwhelming, but your
point stands that that that

373
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,960
really gives us insight to what
this means.

374
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,720
It's not just this knowledge,
it's this intimate knowledge of

375
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,040
those who he chose and those who
he loves.

376
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:33,560
Right, and So what we're what
you might hear is guarding

377
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,040
against is this idea that is
it's kind of out there that in

378
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,200
some circles that kind of God
just foresees this fact that,

379
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,000
you know, Michael will trust
him.

380
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,520
And so it's on that basis that
I'm predestined.

381
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,840
And we're saying that's not the
case, that God in a way that we

382
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,840
really can't understand.
Before I existed on my timeline

383
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,840
from eternity, God knew who I
was and chose me even though I

384
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,280
was sinful.
So that's the first link in that

385
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,520
chain.
He foreknew us and then he

386
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,960
chooses to predestine us, which
is another Greek word.

387
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,880
I'll let you.
Pronounce this one.

388
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:12,840
Great, Michael.
Appreciate it.

389
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,680
Pro reads Pro.
Reads or something like that.

390
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know, has this idea of

391
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,560
choosing, has this idea what
what many have termed election.

392
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,640
Something will try to flesh out
a little bit more.

393
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,200
I mean, I think most people know
when they hear predestined.

394
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,960
Some people shudder against that
because it is such a strong

395
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,560
word.
Yeah, unlike Paul.

396
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,880
Paul, Joel's admonishment to us
that if you believe the Bible,

397
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,560
you have to believe in an
election and predestination.

398
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,040
Like you can't get around those
because they're there.

399
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,080
Now, there are some options,
some that we think are more

400
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,800
aligned with Scripture and some
that we think are less aligned

401
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,160
to Scripture on how to deal with
those words.

402
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,080
But you can't just throw those
words out like you got to deal

403
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,680
with them.
Yeah, the Bible explicitly says

404
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,360
that that God shows us.
So you you can say, OK, he shows

405
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,200
us predestined us.
You really have to ask the

406
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,120
question on what basis, and you
frame it that way.

407
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,200
To me it seems clear, because if
you're basing stuff on works,

408
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,360
that's kind of scary.
It's because I'm so much better

409
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:13,640
than everyone else, right?
Right.

410
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:14,920
It's like.
That's a scary.

411
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,360
Thing to say and I don't think
people really believe that I

412
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,240
think it's inconsistency because
I know these people some of

413
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,520
these people and it's you know,
but it's like if you start

414
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,040
thinking through the logic of
it, I think he framed it really

415
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,200
well.
What's the basis?

416
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,320
But anyway, that predestined the
next part of the chain is called

417
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,600
those.
We've kind of talked a lot about

418
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,840
called in previous episodes kind
and the different, you know,

419
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,320
connotations what what that
means in this case.

420
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,200
It's not like, you know, what's
God calling me to do?

421
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,160
You know, it's it's this
definite call.

422
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,400
Right.
Yep.

423
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,720
And if you're called, then he's
going to justify you.

424
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,200
And Paul has spent literally
chapters talking about what is

425
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,200
true justification.
And then the result of that

426
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,320
ultimately is this
glorification.

427
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,920
We some, we see some of that
here on earth, like as we're

428
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,320
being sanctified.
But ultimately that answer is

429
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,480
going to happen when we are, we
get our new, new bodies, we're

430
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,760
resurrected, we have our new
bodies and we see him face to

431
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,400
face.
We see that glorification.

432
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,520
And I love this chain.
You know, we're zooming out.

433
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,320
It's this, it's this glorious
chain where if you hit one of

434
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,480
these, you hit all these, or if
you or you hit none of them,

435
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,000
right?
So it gives you confidence if

436
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,160
you're justified, this whole
chain applies to you.

437
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,960
Zooming out again, you know, we
can suffer, we can rejoice

438
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,960
because of this.
This is a positive thing.

439
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,200
So as we take a deep breath and
get into election, there are the

440
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,160
2 views.
You kind of given us a little

441
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,400
bit of background going into it,
but the first view is this

442
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,320
foreknowledge view that he
looked down the corridors of

443
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,760
time and he saw you would
respond, saw you would do these

444
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,920
things and and you were chosen
based on that.

445
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,200
And, and that the ultimately, I
mean, I know that some people

446
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,520
don't like to categorize it like
that, but ultimately if that is

447
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,800
the correct view, then we are
the difference makers.

448
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,360
So God is really looking down
and he is seeing people who

449
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:12,560
choose him.
And so the difference is in how

450
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,640
they respond to God.
And so some had say would say

451
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,960
that God calls everyone and then
some respond.

452
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,960
And in a sense, God, there is a
general call that goes out to

453
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,400
everyone.
Like you know, Scripture is

454
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,200
available to nearly everyone you
know.

455
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,320
Yeah, that's where the
testimony.

456
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,000
Goes out to everyone.
There is a, you know, a grace

457
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,480
that God gives to everyone.
But we're talking about this

458
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,680
particular call that we see.
And you know, there's so many

459
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,280
verses Ephesians 289 that would
say it's by grace through faith

460
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,880
and that not of yourself.
It's a gift of God so that no

461
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,040
one may boast, because if I can
boast then I then I was a

462
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,640
difference maker.
But if I'm not the difference

463
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,480
maker then I then I can't boast
in that.

464
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,040
And, and kind of like I was
mentioning earlier, I think most

465
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,120
of our brothers and sisters on
that more semi Pelagian,

466
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:07,400
Armenian kind of area, I think
they would say Ephesians 289.

467
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,400
Amen.
I agree with that.

468
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,400
So to me, it's a little bit
logically existed, but I don't

469
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,600
want to characterize them as
saying like they don't believe

470
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,520
in grace 'cause I think they do.
But I, I just don't see how

471
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,440
we're not making the connection.
But I want to be charitable in

472
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:19,920
that too.
Yes, yeah.

473
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,200
And and like we said in our
Arkansas podcast when we kind of

474
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,200
talked about some about this
when I, you know, I try to

475
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,440
understand exactly what others
believe sometimes and and I

476
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,680
don't.
Yeah.

477
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,600
So all right, so the other
option, so that's option one.

478
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,440
And the other option is that
there is a sovereign grace and

479
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,760
that God knows us personally
because he's chosen us.

480
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,000
And so and and there's lots of
scripture that lines up with

481
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,600
that.
Did you have where you turned to

482
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,240
one of them in?
Terms of the for for later on

483
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:56,720
down the road.
Your preference.

484
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,000
So I'll just read these.
So Ephesians 2, one through 2

485
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:06,440
says, and you were dead, dead in
your trespasses and sins in

486
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,480
which you formally walked
according to the course of this

487
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,120
world, according to the Prince
of the power of the air, of the

488
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:15,040
Spirit that is now working in
the sons of disobedience.

489
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,160
I.
Heard you pause that dead a

490
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,320
couple times.
Were you making a point?

491
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,520
Yes, like we're dead like we're
spiritually dead.

492
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,040
We are unable to do anything
that pleases God from there.

493
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,360
And then, you know, verse 4
would go on would say, but God

494
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:32,080
not not but Michael figured it
out not but Zach, you know, you

495
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,600
know, looked up and you know
it's but God had mercy on us and

496
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,200
because of his great love for us
made us alive with with him in

497
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,440
Christ.
Yeah, I try to compare it to

498
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,880
other New Testament examples.
This is different.

499
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,360
But Lazarus being raised from
the dead, he wasn't doing a

500
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,000
whole lot.
I mean, he he was very dependent

501
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,640
on being raised from the dead.
Maybe a better example is, you

502
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,440
know, Paul Saul, maybe on the
way to the road on Damascus, he

503
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,080
was trying to murder, take
Christians to jail.

504
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,760
He was anti God and God changed
his heart.

505
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,640
It's not that Saul was like, oh,
I love I got to kill some

506
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,120
Christians, but actually love
God.

507
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,160
It it seems like there was a
change with his interaction with

508
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:17,200
God.
You know, I think a lot.

509
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,040
I think Arcy Sproul, he would
look at a passage like John

510
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,120
three with Nicodemus and say,
you know, you, you can't see the

511
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,760
Kingdom of God unless you're
born again, that you're dead.

512
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,760
You need that regeneration.
And then then we can come to

513
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,200
faith kind of kind of idea.
But anyway, keep on running

514
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,400
down.
We got some good passages.

515
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,600
And Romans 310, I mean, it's
these are quotes and there's,

516
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,080
there's more here.
So you can go back to Romans 3

517
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,960
and and kind of go through all
of it, but this is kind of

518
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,640
highlight.
These are quotes from the Old

519
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,320
Testament.
As is written, there is none

520
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,400
righteous not even one.
There is none who understands

521
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,560
there is none who seeks for God.
All have turned aside together

522
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,600
they have become useless.
There is none who does good.

523
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,640
There is not even one.
These are really some of the

524
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,280
verse first verses that kind of
slapped me across the face when

525
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,880
someone said, do you did you
seek God?

526
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,960
And I was like, I kind of kind
of feel like I did well, like,

527
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,760
what does this first say?
And like, oh, maybe I didn't And

528
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,560
and it's not that I didn't have
a response.

529
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,400
Yep.
It's not that.

530
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,640
I'm not saying that's a good
point.

531
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,040
Yeah, great point.
But my response when when we

532
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,120
zoom out and we look at it was
because of God's choosing me to

533
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:33,600
begin with and his working in my
life and putting me through some

534
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,640
tough times, helping me see my
sin, opening my eyes at whoa,

535
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,920
I'm not good, I deserve to go to
hell.

536
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,760
All of that was by his grace.
Yeah, I, I think RC Sprole does

537
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,400
some of the best work on the
short 20 minute lectures going

538
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,360
through what some of termed the
five points of Calvinism, Tulip

539
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,040
or something like that.
It's fairly succinct and and he

540
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,640
nails it so well.
And what what he would say, he's

541
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,240
actually got a funny quote.
He's on a panel and someone's

542
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,040
like, what do we do with those
who say they're four point

543
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,800
Calvinist?
And he's like, I'll tell you, I

544
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,400
got a good name for four point
Calvinist Armenians because they

545
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,920
don't get it.
And, and his point is, if you

546
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,520
truly understand total
depravity, all these others fall

547
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,920
behind at that.
You, you can do no good.

548
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,720
Your heart is sinful,
desperately wicked.

549
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,960
Who can know it that you're not
going to do that based on your

550
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,240
nature.
And if you get that part of it

551
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,960
right, because I think a lot of
people would say, oh, I get

552
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,400
total depravity, then everything
else would, would fall into

553
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,960
place.
So I, I recommend looking there

554
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,080
as well.
Pastor Joel mentioned John 644

555
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,160
to 45 and 60 to 63 that that
talks about that those who were

556
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,520
drawn come to Christ.
And I like that word.

557
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,800
And you can't, I don't think you
can base everything off of word

558
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,080
studies.
But if you go in blue letter

559
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,000
Bible, you look up that word
drawn.

560
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,800
It's usually it's used often
when the disciples are drawing

561
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,840
fish out of the water.
So are the fish wanting to get

562
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:54,760
the vote?
Probably not.

563
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,600
And then kind of doing this call
back to Paul and Silas in Acts

564
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,640
16, if I can find my spot here.
But when her owners talking

565
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,160
about that demon possessed girl
saw that their hope of gain was

566
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,080
gone.
They couldn't make money.

567
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,640
They seized Paul and Silas and
dragged them into the

568
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,800
marketplace before the the
rulers that dragged his draw.

569
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,160
And they weren't like, hey, Paul
and Silas, come over here.

570
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,000
Hey, hey, this is so enticing.
Let me tell you how good it is

571
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,480
make this decision.
They took them and dragged them.

572
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,640
And I'm not saying that's a
slave dunk argument, but I think

573
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,680
the preponderance of all these
verses, it means something.

574
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,400
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, there it's just to

575
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,520
me, you can be reading a passage
and there will be just this

576
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,040
little bloop of, you know, they
didn't come to to Christ because

577
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,720
it wasn't permitted of them like
that.

578
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,960
There's like these little be
pieces that are that are spread

579
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,400
throughout the New Testament.
God has chosen, but that is

580
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,960
foolishness to the natural man.
So if you're familiar with the

581
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,960
first Corinthians, Paul is
really addressing, you know,

582
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,800
some really craziness in the
Corinthian church.

583
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,640
And, you know, they had set up
these factions and he wanted to

584
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,720
say, you know, I didn't come to
you with all these wise sayings.

585
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,720
I came to you, you know, humble
and a servant, and I preach to

586
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,640
you the gospel, which is
foolishness.

587
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:24,000
But if we read through these
versus, you'll see a repeated

588
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,280
phrase, maybe I'll try to to
highlight it, but it says for

589
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,160
consider your calling, brethren,
that there were not many wise

590
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,200
according to the flesh, not many
mighty, not many noble.

591
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,840
But God has chosen the foolish
things of the world to shame the

592
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,000
wise.
And God has chosen the weak

593
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,440
things of the world to shame the
things which are strong and the

594
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,560
base things of the world.
And the despised God has chosen

595
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,240
the things that are not so that
he may nullify the things that

596
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,240
are, so that no man may boast
before God.

597
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:06,080
But by his doing you are in
Christ Jesus, who became to us

598
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,680
wisdom from God, and
righteousness, and sanctify,

599
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,280
sanctification and redemption,
so that just as it is written,

600
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,520
let him who boasts boast in the
Lord.

601
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,440
That is an amazing verse and it
says or pass and it says it a

602
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,200
few times that the whole goal of
that is to give God glory.

603
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,640
It's like you have beat this
drum, but it's like, yeah, who

604
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,640
who is the one that should
deserve glory?

605
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,440
And in this kind of situation,
who's doing the work ultimately,

606
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,880
And I know you guys said it in
that that podcast going if you

607
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,360
go down all those different five
points, I think that that's the

608
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,400
question.
Does God have a definite people

609
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,120
that he saved or is it like he's
throwing salvation out there and

610
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,120
just hoping for the best,
crossing his fingers.

611
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,360
Maybe people will, you know,
come, come to him.

612
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,880
Pastor Joel does this
illustration talking about

613
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,600
another Calvinist Prince of
preachers, Charles Spurgeon.

614
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,440
Because I think a lot of
Baptists like Charles Spurgeon,

615
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,600
even if they're not on the
Calvinist side and he's

616
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,440
interacting with some Methodist,
which I think as a general rule

617
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,440
are not going to be on that
sovereign Gray side.

618
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,160
It seems like the servant's
going really well.

619
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,480
A lot of amens, a lot of
hallelujahs, and then they get

620
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,360
to the topic of election, right?
And this is where I kind of

621
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,200
forget the illustration.
So I'm hoping you can you can

622
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,040
pick it up from.
Here, Yeah.

623
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,400
He was just saying that all
these Amens, like he was just

624
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,920
walking them down like kind of
step by step, notch by notch

625
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,480
through this idea of election.
And he at the end, he's

626
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,040
basically says the Lord made the
difference.

627
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,080
And they said yes, Amen, We
agree to that and that that he

628
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,960
was the difference maker.
And he's like, well, if you

629
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,400
believe that, then you believe
in election.

630
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,760
Yeah, yeah, we're all, we're all
doing the same thing that.

631
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,440
That that's great.
So to take a step back, kind of

632
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,440
think about this golden chain.
These words are in the past

633
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,000
tense that, that that's
significant.

634
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,760
These these have happened.
They, they've been accomplished,

635
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,360
gives us great hope and really
allows us to suffer or to

636
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,600
rejoice in the midst of
suffering.

637
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,280
It's not meant to divide as it's
been done over and over again.

638
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,600
And I think we can agree on on a
lot of this up, but it's

639
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,920
election, I think is something
important to to think about.

640
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,480
He's got this quote here that
our verses are intended to give

641
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,200
us confidence to give us
encouragement in our sufferings

642
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,960
that God is working in them for
our good and he will ultimately

643
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,200
bring to completion what he has
begun.

644
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,520
The we have a God who has a plan
and he's going to see it

645
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,720
through.
And if you fit on that, you

646
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,680
know, golden chain of
redemption, you can take great

647
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,600
hope no matter what happens
because you know God is working

648
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,200
things for your good.
Peeking ahead ahead.

649
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,320
God is for us.
Who can be against us?

650
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,640
Yeah, and Joel closes with this
illustration of this guy whose

651
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,200
cell phone password was for us
or Pro Nobus.

652
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,480
And they're like, what?
You know what?

653
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,000
What?
What does Pro Nobus mean?

654
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,600
He's like, well, that means for
us.

655
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,360
And it's like, like you said, if
God's for us and it doesn't

656
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,840
really matter in the end, we
know that everything's going to

657
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,720
be OK.
And this quote from Ventura is

658
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,679
important to know that Paul does
not say here that all things in

659
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,920
and of themselves are good.
We understand that there are

660
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,639
evils.
We understand that people

661
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:19,920
genuinely suffer at the hands of
evil people or at the hands of

662
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,960
calamity of this this universe.
They're not all good in and of

663
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,040
themselves.
That's not the case.

664
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,080
Death is not good, murder is not
good, rape is not good, abortion

665
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,400
is not good.
Consequently, and view of such

666
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,040
bad things, we should be
sensitive not to

667
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,840
unsympathetically quote this
verse to others, especially in

668
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,920
their time of grief.
The verse is true and so is

669
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,760
Romans 12/15, which tells us
that we are to weep with those

670
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,159
who weep.
I'm reminded, you know, William

671
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:51,760
Lane Craig, William William Lane
Craig, Greg Koppel and others

672
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,960
who deal with a problem of evil
a lot.

673
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,760
Sometimes they'll make the
distinction between the

674
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,400
intellectual and the emotional
problem of evil 'cause sometimes

675
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,440
people are going through a tough
time and maybe you need to get

676
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,160
eventually to the intellectual
problem of evil and how God has

677
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,680
solved it.
But sometimes they just need,

678
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,240
you know, some emotional
comforting during that time.

679
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,320
Yeah, yeah.
That that's an important

680
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,360
distinction.
And I think this is 1 area where

681
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,360
Calvinists get a bad rap because
it's so intellectual or it's so

682
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,320
just academic that you can be
saying truths that are are not

683
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,440
going because they're not
sensitive.

684
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,680
You're not doing that weeping
with those who weep.

685
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,040
And on some level, even if you
know all the right verses and

686
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,920
you know God is sovereign and
man is responsible, you still

687
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,560
don't know how that interfaces
totally.

688
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,520
There is mystery there.
We can affirm truths and say,

689
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,360
hey, I don't know how God works
it out.

690
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,760
I know my God is a good God.
I know he's a just God.

691
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,520
He's a righteous God.
He's a merciful God.

692
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,720
And I think that's important
because if you're, you know,

693
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,120
pastorally counseling someone,
it it's not, it doesn't really

694
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,400
help just to coldly say things
and walk away.

695
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:01,040
Yeah, no, that's good.
So out of this passage, we had,

696
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,680
we started off home groups and
had a probably our, our most

697
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,720
robust discussion in a long
time.

698
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:12,400
And part of that is, you know,
you talk with folks who see this

699
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,400
from scripture, but they have
lost loved ones that they've

700
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,320
prayed for, that they've shared
the gospel with.

701
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,480
And it's like that they're just
not responding.

702
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,000
And it's like, how do I, how do
I have hope when I have a dad

703
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,320
who is up in the years we've
shared the gospel with him, he

704
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,240
would say he's a believer, but
there's no fruit and he doesn't

705
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,480
really want to talk about it.
And, and honestly, I didn't want

706
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,760
to say this, but like, that was
a red flag because when I

707
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,800
would've told you I was a
believer, but I wasn't and there

708
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,440
was a sermon or a lesson on the
gospel and be like, I don't want

709
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,760
to talk about this again.
Let's let's talk, you know, now

710
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,080
talk about it all the time
because it's like, you know,

711
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,200
this is my story.
This is my song, you know,

712
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,080
singing my savior all the day
long type of thing.

713
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,720
I'm I'm gonna be pastor.
I'm only pastor Joel before too

714
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,960
long.
Keep it going and and maybe you

715
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,760
have some some thoughts you can
add.

716
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,800
Like always, continue to pray
like that may sound simple.

717
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,640
It may sound like the cop out
answer, but we believe prayer is

718
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,720
effective and we are praying to
the God of eternity.

719
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:20,680
Like the God of eternity knows
if I'm going to pray tonight and

720
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:26,440
he knew from his eternal stance
how I'm going to pray and how he

721
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,560
is going to answer that.
Sometimes it's going to be no.

722
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,280
Sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's
going to be maybe later, but he

723
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,840
is going to hear that and he is
going to answer it.

724
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,960
And so praying is one of those
things.

725
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,240
And I think, I mean, I take
encouragement, we've talked

726
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:45,720
about it, but to go back, I,
when I look at Scripture and I

727
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:51,760
see that Saul who hated God, God
chose him, that that's

728
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,520
comforting knowing it's not like
this set of it's not in them

729
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,520
that it's gonna happen.
It's like, you know, God, God

730
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,600
can work this out.
He's worked it out in people who

731
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,520
are very hostile against him.
I think there is some comfort in

732
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,000
that.
Even though you look at that,

733
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,720
you can be, you can not see the
comfort.

734
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,280
I think there is that comforting
side, encouraging side as well.

735
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,200
Yeah.
And sometimes, like, you know,

736
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,840
it's scary to to pray to God,
whatever it takes.

737
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,720
I want this.
But really, if, you know, that

738
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,120
may be the prayer that we need
to be asking for our loved ones.

739
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,920
Like whatever it takes, if it
takes some tragedy in my

740
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,640
father's life for him to wake up
and see the goodness of your son

741
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,280
and the sin in his life, then
maybe that's that's how we pray.

742
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,720
Sometimes it can be tough to
share the gospel with a loved

743
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,200
one, especially if you've
already shared it.

744
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,960
You know, it can kind of create
a barrier.

745
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,480
Pray that God would bring
someone into their lives that

746
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,000
you know, would get to know
them, would be, you know, on

747
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,040
that side that can help them see
things and, you know, keep being

748
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,160
that salt and light.
I think that's good prayer plus

749
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,240
action.
It's like, man, whatever's in

750
00:38:56,240 --> 00:39:00,440
you to help introduce them to a
resource or someone else or, you

751
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,400
know, keep, keep at it, 'cause I
think that is a discouraging

752
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,440
thing.
But I, I, I think, you know,

753
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,360
zooming out again, the purpose
of this passage, it is for hope.

754
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,600
And so we pray, pray to pray to
that end.

755
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:11,840
Yeah.
Anything else you want to say,

756
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,440
Zach?
I think we covered a lot.

757
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,400
Big big topic, but that's all I
got.

758
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,040
All right, that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

759
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,240
Two.
Find us wherever you find

760
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,760
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

761
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:28,440
video cast.