Teleological Argument Part 1 | Design or Chance

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So Zach, that's a nice shirt you
have there.

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Oh, thank you.
It's this the the seminary

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you're going to?
Yep, that's right.

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Forge Theological Seminary.
Yeah.

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Oh, the take Two podcasts I
know.

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Yeah, so I wore this shirt on
vacation.

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We were in the Branson, MO area.
Nice.

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I go into the store and this guy
looks at me.

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He's like, I'll try to mimic his
voice as much.

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Like, dude, I love that shirt.
I love that shirt.

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And it kind of threw me off
because from the front, all you

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can read is give hate a chance.
And so most of the time I think

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people look at it and go, I
think they would go, what is

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that dude talking about?
And then maybe catch the

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backside of my shirt and then go
because in the back it says

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abhor what is evil Romans 12/9.
So I didn't I did say, oh, thank

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you.
I was like, this is actually a

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shirt from a podcast I listened
to started there and then I

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showed him the back.
I was like, you know, it's

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talking about, you know, hating
what's evil, you know, and then

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therefore, you know, kind of by
by the same thing, loving what's

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what's good.
And I was like, yeah, and I'm

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actually one of the podcasters.
So I did, I did kind of split

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that in afterwards and he and he
was like, oh man, what's the

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name of the podcast?
So I told him take theology and

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he's like, and is it still
alive?

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I'm like, yeah, we're still
still recording.

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So perhaps we'll get another
list we another story with this

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shirt different day.
We're back in Arkansas.

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One of my classmates that
graduated with Jill and I both

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graduated OK, their dog had a
litter of dogs.

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We were on the the knife's edge,
at least in everyone's mind

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except for Jill's, of bringing
one of these puppies home with.

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Us Jill was a hard nail, she.
Knew these were like half healer

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half we don't know, maybe rock a
rot mix.

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But his wife I, I was wearing
this shirt and she must have

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looked at it and she asked about
our podcast afterwards and

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wanted the information and a
link to it.

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So maybe, maybe, maybe Megan's
listening to us now.

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We'll see.
Wow, I love.

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It we just need to get more edgy
shirts.

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What else?
What else can we say besides

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give hate a chance?
Yeah, I know so.

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Like if there's something with
Ezra Nehemiah, we can be like,

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we probably don't want to say
don't intermarry or something

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that that's too, that's too
much, That's not.

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Beard out.
Pull your beard out.

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Hey, if you're not pulling your
beard out, it's not that bad.

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Maybe that could be the back of
it or something.

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Or I thought about, you know, we
could do something like make

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something great again, you know,
something, you know, whatever

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that middle, that, that next one
is.

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So, yeah.
So get your shirt.

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Get your shirt because it is a
conversation starter.

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At least it's been for me.
I'd I'd like to.

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If you, if you're like, man, I
don't know how to make small

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talk, we're doing it for ya.
Grab this shirt because it'll do

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the talking for ya.
Yeah, we got one on Nepheline,

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we got one on Giving Hate a
chance, we got one on tanking it

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to the next.
Level maybe, yeah, if you're

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looking for a car, if you're
like, man, I, I wish I had this

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conversation started on a shirt.
Give us a comment.

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Maybe we make it happen.
We can, you know what it is.

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And let us just, you know, open
that bridge to making all sorts

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of new friends.
That's good, That's good.

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All right, so today we're going
to be talking.

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We're gonna do I think it's a
three-part series.

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We'll see how see how it goes,
how fast we go.

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But we're gonna be talking about
the teleological argument and I

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always have struggled with.
This one, it's one of those hard

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ones to say, but I can't wait to
just dive into it because what?

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What other arguments have we
covered already?

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We've got a good we've already.
Covered the cosmological

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arguments and we covered the
moral argument, and we talked

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about Aquinas's argument from
existence and essence that there

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must be something whose essence
is existence itself.

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OK.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Remember those?
So we were covering the moral

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argument, which is really a we
talked about the moral argument

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in particular, but we said
really this is part of a family

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of transcendental arguments that
say, here's something that

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transcends just the physical,
like morality or beauty or

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knowledge or consciousness, or,
you know, all those things.

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Therefore there must be
something that grounds it and we

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would we call that God.
So I, I thought, you know what

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we were talking about that, that
one, I was like, oh, normally

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these are kind of given in the
order of cosmological,

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teleological, moral.
It's like what we kind of

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skipped the teleological.
So we should.

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Come back and get that.
Got it.

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Don't leave it out and we won't.
We're taking three episodes on

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it, so we're not leaving you
out.

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I thought the options were
either try to cram it all in one

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episode and leave the listeners
like, whoa, that was a lot.

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Or, you know, and maybe the
listeners, you know, I know some

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people, these aren't their
favorite episodes, my wife being

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one of them, 'cause it's, you
know, it does get a little

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heady, a little philosophical.
I was like, you know, maybe if

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we just kind of take it a little
slower, that's right, maybe.

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People, it'll be their favorite
one because they can.

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You can understand it more.
I was thinking I don't know

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where this goes, but that
there's another T-shirt.

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There should be like, what kind
of argument you wanna hear moral

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till you get all the different
ones, you know, And it's like,

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take two podcasts.
You can figure it all out.

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I like it, yeah.
All right, so let's take this to

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the next level.
From the hearts of the Low

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Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level.

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All right, so maybe you've heard
about a design argument or the

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teleological argument, and maybe
even that word doesn't make

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sense 'cause it kind of looks
like telescope.

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Yeah.
Or telephone, television.

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Television.
Telethon.

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Telethon.
Telemetry.

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I'm just trying to think of all
the.

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Yeah, all the telly's.
So this word Tele means like the

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end so I can or distance.
So a telescope helps you scope

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as the C, the end or C if long
distance.

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Theological just means that
we're talking about the end in

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the sense of the design, like
the purpose.

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And so a lot of times we look
at, you know, the things around

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us and it seems like they were
designed because it seems like

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they have a purpose to them.
And ology we, we, you hear a

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study of, but it can also just
mean, you know, a logical

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discussion about.
So we're this is a logical

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discussion about the end of
things.

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Love it.
That's great.

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And I'm curious, it'll be good
to see how how many other of

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these apologetic like arguments
do we, I can mean like

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categories.
Would you say there are that we

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haven't touched?
Broad arguments, yeah.

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Yeah, well, William Lane Craig
would give one from the witness,

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the inner witness of the Holy
Spirit.

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And I don't know, I don't that's
more of a testimony.

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Instead I would, I would think
of a apologetic argument then.

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So the other broad category
would be the ontological.

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Oh, ontological fine, yeah.
Thomas Aquinas gives five ways,

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but those I think are kind of
they overlap and and some of

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them kind of go back to
cosmological, like there has to

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be a starting point type of
thing.

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He he talks about motion and
stuff like that.

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So I could be leaving one out.
William Lane Craig will give,

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you know, the adaptability of
the universe to mathematics, but

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really we could map that back
into the transcendental family

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of arguments.
So the these types would be I

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think this and one more we would
kind of cover the basis of the

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the general ones unless I'm, you
know, someone comment if I'm

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leaving one out.
Comment and I, I, I'm, I'm

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excited to get into this one
because I think this one makes a

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lot of sense and it like it's, I
think it's very relevant

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because, you know, everything
just got thrown together or

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there was purpose in it or two
views that people jump to one or

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the other.
But it's good to press people on

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it because I think it is, you
know, trendy to say like, you

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know, everything's just so
random or, you know what I mean.

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So I, I, I'm excited to jump
into this.

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So I thought maybe we'd kind of
give a, a history.

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The first person.
I say the first person, the

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first notable person.
I'm sure there's probably

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someone before him.
William Paley, he gives this

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watchmaker analogy.
He talks about like, if I'm

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walking through this Meadow and
I stomp my foot on something

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thinking it's a rock, and I look
down, instead of a rock, it's a

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watch.
And I open it up and I look at

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it and I go, this watch did not
just happened naturally.

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It's too intricately designed.
It has a purpose.

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And so, you know, there must be
a watchmaker.

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Yeah, there's like gear I could
just like, well, I think anyone

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would say that, that it's just
not, it's not grass or it's not

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whatever.
That, that makes sense, yeah.

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Yeah, and you might read someone
like, well, no one gives William

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Paley's argument anymore because
it's been shown to be false and

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all.
All we mean by that is that it's

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not worded fancifully enough to
ward off some of these attacks

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against it.
And So what you'll see as we go

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through until we get to the
third episode, it's probably the

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most philosophically, you know,
well worded argument and it kind

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of bypasses, it's called the
fine tuning argument that's made

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popular by William Lane Craig
kind of bypasses some of the

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stuff.
But to me, we're giving too much

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away if we just go with that
one, because all the way from,

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you know, the atom up to the
universe, there's all these

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evidences of design that I think
that maybe any individual, one

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of those by itself, you might go
maybe that's not conclusive.

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But all of it taken together, I
think is is is very conclusive.

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Yeah, I like this other example
you have on here 'cause it's

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another one you hear a lot, the
human eye.

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There's a lot going on in there
and it's hard to just for that

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just to happen or it's, you
know, you all these different

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things have to go where it's not
like you add one thing and the

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eye works perfectly.
It's It seems more complicated

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than that.
Yeah, and even if you were to

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see, you know, a footprint on a
beach, far less complicated than

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a human eye, far less
complicated.

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But you would never go.
This arose by natural.

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Just happens that this the wind
blew this in the perfect place.

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Probably not as.
Likely.

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Wow, this is 'cause there's a
much better explanation for

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someone's step there.
But Michael, I feel like the

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pushback for a lot of these
things, I think we talked about

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others is like, but if he gave
anything billions and billions

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of years, an infinite amount of
time, it's gonna happen.

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Yeah, we, we might should do an
episode that just focuses on why

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evolution fails at some point in
time.

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But you know that we don't have
even even, you know, on an older

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few, there's not a whole lot of
time between when the radiation

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goes down and the Cambrian
explosion happens.

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And there's also no accounting
for the information being there

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to begin with, cause evolution
only works on information that's

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already there.
Well, I'm glad Aquinas pops up

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again because we haven't talked
about him enough.

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Yeah, so there are other
historical thinkers who do

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mention some give some design
things.

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Thomas Aquinas fifth way things
without intelligence act towards

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goals like gravity pulling
downward.

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It seems like it was designed
somehow.

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Isaac Newton also saw
mathematical precision and

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cosmic order as evidence of a
divine design.

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In fact, Isaac Newton writes as
much or maybe more about

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theology and God.
Not, not that we would agree

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with all of what you have to
say, but he does write quite a

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bit about those subjects and
those were his motivations for

224
00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:00,040
all of his mathematical and and
physical discoveries.

225
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,920
So moving on from historical to
today, some of the big names, I

226
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,440
haven't heard this guy's name in
a while, but he was a big player

227
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:15,040
in the design movement,
intelligent design movement,

228
00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:19,960
William Demski.
And I bring him up because he,

229
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,680
whether he coined the phrase or
just kind of made it popular,

230
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,560
there's a there are a couple of
ideas that the listener should

231
00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:31,960
be familiar with.
Specified complexity is one of

232
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,720
those.
And it's like got two parts.

233
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,360
It's both specific and it's
complex.

234
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,640
So you can imagine, did you ever
eat?

235
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,600
Was it spaghetti OS the the soup
that had all the different

236
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:47,640
letters?
In it, yeah, yeah.

237
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,440
I thought all the spaghetti OS
is just the OS.

238
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,840
Maybe you got the other can with
like all the letters, but there

239
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,600
is one with the.
Letters.

240
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,280
Just the OS.
Maybe there's one with letters.

241
00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,320
There was also some cereal that
had letters.

242
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,320
Oh, like alpha alphabets?
Yeah.

243
00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:59,720
Alphabets I don't.
Know or something?

244
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:00,360
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

245
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,160
So you could imagine that if we
poured a bowl of those and you

246
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,120
look down and you just see that
whatever arrangement that is

247
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,040
there is going to be complex.
Yep.

248
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,120
Like it's not likely to happen
again if I randomly pour a

249
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,200
bulls.
But if it's just a jumble of

250
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,600
letters, it's not like you would
say, yeah, it's complex, but who

251
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:21,440
cares?
Yeah.

252
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,000
Or you can imagine what if there
was a serial that just had the

253
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,560
letters AC H&Z in there, just
those 4 letters, good letters

254
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,400
and and you pour a bull there
and you you happen.

255
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:37,920
Can't believe.
It oh, there's Zach.

256
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,600
Oh, there's another Zach.
There's another Zach.

257
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,280
Well, those are the only four
letters there, so it's not.

258
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,120
That it'd be like more
impressive.

259
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,600
You do the alphabet and it's
like you will die at 2:00 AM

260
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,000
tomorrow.
You get what?

261
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,280
Right, right.
So you have something that's

262
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,960
really complex that's unlikely
to happen on its own, and it's

263
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,480
very specified that specified
complexity.

264
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,320
William Demsky, he demonstrated
this.

265
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,440
He was a, he was really a
mathematician and a computer

266
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,560
scientist and he looked at like
information in the genome of

267
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:14,240
animals and stuff and DNA and he
was trying to show how DNA and

268
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,560
all the all the information is a
signature of intelligence.

269
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,400
I'm going to miss his name.
Steven Meyer kind of talks about

270
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,160
this a lot.
Jumped off of this as well.

271
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,680
This is an aside.
I was curious if you should

272
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,720
check this out.
I'm not endorsing the Joe Rogan

273
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,920
podcast, but Steven Meyer went
on the Joe Rogan podcast.

274
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:39,360
He really put forward this
arguments and I was kind of they

275
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,480
did not go over super.
I mean, Joe Rogan's not like

276
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,880
wasn't on the same wavelength,
but I was like, I feel like I

277
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,640
don't know enough about it, but
I was like, I feel like he could

278
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,720
do a better job explaining it,
but it's hard when you're like

279
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,400
he was he wasn't going to
presentation.

280
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,120
It was back and forth and.
It was tough.

281
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,920
Stephen Meyer, do better, I'll
put.

282
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,640
It on a quote, yeah, 'cause I
actually like Stephen Meyer a

283
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,440
lot.
I think he was like trying to be

284
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,200
just very personable and like,
I'm not going to go on an all

285
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,040
out attack and like bring
everything that Joe says down.

286
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,480
But Joe's response to almost
everything that Stephen brought

287
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:12,880
up was but what if you're wrong?
But.

288
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was like, how can he be?

289
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,360
If blah blah blah blah blah, he.
Kept talking about fine tuning,

290
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,400
but I don't know, but yeah,
yeah.

291
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,560
You can what if for forever,
like, well, if that's true, then

292
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,440
this is false.
But we don't have any evidence,

293
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,120
Joe, that what you're saying is
true.

294
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,720
So everything we have points to
what I'm saying being true.

295
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,000
But you know, it was, it was
kind of a frustrating interview

296
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:40,080
to listen to, But that is
specified complexity, all right.

297
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,120
And so then this other idea that
you should be familiar with is

298
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,440
irreducible complexity.
Irreducible complexity is a

299
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,520
subset of specified complexity,
so not all specified complexity

300
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,440
is irreducible, but irreducible
is a type of specified

301
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,240
complexity.
Michael Beehee kind of makes

302
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,280
this popular, popularizes it in
the ID movement, and kind of.

303
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:09,440
His flagship example is the
bacterial flagellar motor Go you

304
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,320
can go find videos of this and
like there I believe there are

305
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,880
like 30 more than 30.
I think 37 is the the number,

306
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,000
but that's the number I always
use when I'm joking around my

307
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,000
kids.
So it could be wrong.

308
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,920
Maybe it's 3435, but there are a
number of different parts in

309
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,560
this flagellar motor and if you
take any one of them away it

310
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,720
doesn't work.
You can't.

311
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,080
Yeah, you need all of.
Them, yeah.

312
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,440
And so the point of this is it's
hard to imagine how that would

313
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,960
have evolved because you can't.
Just have.

314
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:41,640
Yeah, that makes a lot.
Of sense, yeah, they all have to

315
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,640
be there together, arranged
right and functioning.

316
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,880
And he he uses the idea of a
mousetrap.

317
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,240
Much simpler than a flagellar
motor.

318
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,840
Has five parts like the base,
the spring, the the wire, the

319
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,400
catch.
And if any one of those are

320
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,280
missing, the mousetrap doesn't
work.

321
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,160
And none of us would look at the
mousetrap and go, oh, that just

322
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,680
evolved.
We know, Oh no, that was made.

323
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,040
And if you look at the flagellar
motor, it looks just like an

324
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,880
outboard motor of a boat.
So very.

325
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:17,560
So that is irreducible
complexity.

326
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,319
And so you have some people will
push back against this.

327
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:28,800
You might say that, well, those
parts in that motor had a

328
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,600
different purpose and a
different thing, and then they

329
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,080
all got together and then the
thing that was there was

330
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,200
selected away when we don't have
any evidence of that, like

331
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,320
there's no proof of that.
Yeah, when you get to specifics,

332
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,280
I hear people are like, well,
you know, that's why we've got

333
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,760
body part, we've got organs that
we don't know exactly what it

334
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:47,720
does.
And it's like, but it's like

335
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,800
you're let's talk about the
cilia or what or whatever you

336
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,680
want to talk about.
Then it's like harder to nail

337
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,440
that stuff down.
And then you also would, you

338
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,960
know, wonder, you know, even if
you don't get down to that

339
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:05,200
micro, like what does half a
wing do for you in flight?

340
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,240
What does an eye that doesn't
really see, you know, So it's

341
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,320
hard to imagine how these things
could get selected for as it's

342
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,640
transitioning, because in order
for it, in order for it to get

343
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,520
selected, it has to give you a
biological advantage.

344
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:27,720
And as you're transitioning from
no wing to a wing, those those

345
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,880
intermediate stages, unless you
could show how they give you

346
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,560
some advantage.
Yeah, this.

347
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,480
Yeah, these things don't
actually help out May.

348
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:36,680
Actually give you a
disadvantage.

349
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's good.

350
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,600
Darwin, by his own emission,
says if it could be demonstrated

351
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,920
that any complex organ existed
which could not possibly have

352
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,680
been formed by numerous
successive slight modification,

353
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,840
then my theory would absolutely
break down.

354
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,160
So some people would say, well,
partial wings may have been

355
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,720
given gliding.
OK, we'll just take gliding

356
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,600
getting up to gliding by itself,
you know, it doesn't do

357
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,760
anything, in my opinion, to
assuade these.

358
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,800
Yeah, I like that.
Your rebuttal.

359
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,800
These are, you know, it's a
hypothesis.

360
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,600
Everything is like theoretically
it could do this, but it's like,

361
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:13,800
does it do this?
Yeah, yeah.

362
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:21,280
OK, another big couple of names
here, Guillermo Gonzalez, also

363
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,400
with Jay Richards.
Jay Richards have been known.

364
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,360
He wrote a book about money, I
believe he's got a couple

365
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:32,840
different areas, but they wrote
this idea about the privileged

366
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,720
planet and it really has his two
ideas that both the Earth is

367
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,440
fine-tuned for life and also for
scientific discovery or

368
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,320
observation.
So that because it, when you

369
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,600
look at all that we can see and
understand and know about, it's

370
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,440
like this seems like it was
designed.

371
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So not only was it designed for

372
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,240
us to be able to live here, but
it was designed so that we could

373
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,720
could know what's around us.
And the timing of that is pretty

374
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,120
important too, because if we
lived some million and billion

375
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:12,360
years later, we we think our
understanding of the universe is

376
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,960
right.
That the night is going to

377
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,680
slowly get darker and darker as
the universe expands because

378
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,800
it's just the things get too far
away.

379
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,560
So you, you have maybe your
Galaxy, but you don't have all

380
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,480
the other galaxies and stuff.
And eventually, so if we lived

381
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,560
in a, in a epic that was much
later than than now, then the

382
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,240
you can't know as much about
your universe as we can now

383
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,160
because we can see all that we
we can see.

384
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,240
But they give some examples.
Transparent atmosphere allows

385
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,680
for astronomy.
Stable galactic location avoids

386
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,200
cosmic radiation.
Ideal eclipse conditions.

387
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:56,320
So there's no reason that the
sun should be 400 times larger

388
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,680
than the moon and the moon be
400 times closer than the sun.

389
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,760
So that they exactly cancel each
other out.

390
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,880
Because we didn't know, we
wouldn't know that there's a

391
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,160
corona that that upper
atmosphere of the sun, because

392
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,360
the sun itself is so bright.
You can't see that until there

393
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,880
is a total solar eclipse and you
look up and you see the corona.

394
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,720
I got to see in Arkansas you're.
A big Corona guy, you know what

395
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:23,880
I mean?
I know you like your Coronas,

396
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:29,360
Yeah.
But so those that is one of

397
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,000
those evidence that it's there.
Yeah, that that's good.

398
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,520
And people might say, of course
you can observe life because

399
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,800
like, we're living or, you know,
like.

400
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,480
Yeah, and that's the anthropic
principle.

401
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,120
So we will address it directly
either at the end of this

402
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:54,040
episode or in the next episode.
But yes, there are some people

403
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,160
would say, yeah, of course, if
you're living here, it must be

404
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,040
the, you know, must be where you
can live.

405
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,480
That's nothing big, but it gets
deeper than that.

406
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,520
Along with the privileged planet
hypothesis, Hugh Ross wrote The

407
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,640
Improbable Planet.
I think I've talked about this a

408
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:16,000
couple times on the on the
podcast, but he will go through

409
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:23,240
a number of these things about
how Earth is arranged, how we

410
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,680
have, you know, these supernova
seating.

411
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,080
So we get our heavy elements,
you know, like all of this

412
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,280
stuff.
You know, again, I'm talking on

413
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,640
an old Earth view, you, you
could be a young earther.

414
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,400
I think God just spoke metal
atoms into existence in our

415
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,920
Earth.
I'm fine with that.

416
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,280
But if you're on an old Earth
view, there's really no reason

417
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,200
that the Earth should have as
much metal and metallic heavy

418
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,440
elements that it does.
But it does.

419
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,280
And it allows us to make, you
know, all the stuff around us is

420
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,480
not helium in in hydrogen.
In fact, you know, the force to

421
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,040
even have like a rocky planet
and not be something like

422
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,200
Neptune, a gaseous planet.
We have to have these these

423
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,400
heavy elements in in order for
that to happen.

424
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,720
Gas giants out there help shield
us from comments and, you know,

425
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,320
kick them out of our solar
system.

426
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,680
We had a very precise moon
collision.

427
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,760
So we have some pretty good
evidence that the moon collided

428
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,160
with the Earth, but it was like
a slow velocity collision.

429
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,720
And we the Earth captures the
moon and the moon is really

430
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,680
pretty large in comparison to
our size.

431
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,800
So, so normally what happens is
the those bodies would get

432
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,840
pulled in or shot out.
So either you take that large

433
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,440
mass and you pull it into
yourself and it becomes part of

434
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,760
you as a planet or you, your
gravity kicks it out.

435
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,000
But the moon collision in our
capture of it was very precise.

436
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,200
Like they've, they've tried over
and over again to show how it

437
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,440
could happen.
But because of its large mass,

438
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,760
it stabilizes our axis, helps us
have better, more predictable

439
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,320
seasons, helps us not wobble and
gives us our tidal waves, which

440
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,480
that water going in and out for
us.

441
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,840
You know, we drive by over the
the bridges and we go, oh, low

442
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,120
tide, high tide.
But that is replenishing,

443
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:25,760
nourishing nutrition,
replenishing nutrients to those

444
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,480
tidal animals.
So all those things kind of go

445
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,720
together.
Wow, that that is good.

446
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,120
I think 'cause it like going
back to like Joe Rogan types.

447
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:38,400
This is also the criticism for
some of these things are, yeah,

448
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,840
we haven't found another planet
like Earth, but same thing,

449
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,080
infinite, like where it's just a
matter.

450
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,160
It's like the universe is so
big, there's got to be a bunch

451
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,640
of Earths out there.
You know what I mean?

452
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:55,040
Yeah, Hugh Ross founded the the
group Reasons to Believe Fuzz

453
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,600
Rana is one of the members of
Reasons to Believe.

454
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,760
And I haven't seen one of these
articles lately.

455
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,320
I don't know if like, I don't
know, Fuzz is still around, but

456
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,760
I don't know if he's like busy
or maybe in poor health.

457
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,000
I don't know because it's been
maybe five years, but he used to

458
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,600
regularly because you'll see
these articles Earth like

459
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:15,600
planet.
Discovered.

460
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,800
Earth like planet, Earth like
planet and he'll go, no, this is

461
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,600
not Earth like and I'll and I'll
tell you why.

462
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,160
And like by the own article,
like here are the differences.

463
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,480
Like, so there are a number of,
you know, rocky planets out

464
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,080
there about our size with water,
but it's like those are three or

465
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,680
four of the parameters that you
would need to have.

466
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,160
Life sustaining.
That's right.

467
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,840
So when you do the math on it,
it's actually the odds of Earth

468
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,920
having there being a planet that
have all these things gets close

469
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,120
to very to 0, so.
Yeah, that's.

470
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,920
Even with all the billions and.
Trillions of time, yeah, that's,

471
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,400
I feel like that's just what
everyone appeals to.

472
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,160
Like, well, give it more time
and there's more universes and

473
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,000
it's like, whatever, we'll get
to it someday.

474
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:06,240
But yeah, OK, so, so right now I
figured this episode we would

475
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,520
kind of lay some groundwork for
some terms that you would need

476
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,520
to know.
And then next episode we'll talk

477
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,200
some of, we've already kind of
talked a little bit about some

478
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,400
of the evidences of design for
life and earth and stuff.

479
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,480
And then the last episode we'll
talk about William Lane Craig's

480
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,800
fine tuning argument.
So what I'm talking about now

481
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,400
will really come to play more in
William Lane Craig's fine tuning

482
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:37,080
argument, but it's this idea
that when we see something that

483
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,600
has to be either necessary.
OK.

484
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,600
Either it's necessary or it's
not necessary.

485
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,360
Yeah, yeah.
And we would say and that kind

486
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:45,400
of.
Gets up to the heart at some of

487
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,240
this evolution stuff like how
necessary or not is it right

488
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,560
like.
Does did gravity have to be the

489
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,080
way it is?
Like, and a lot of people,

490
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,320
physicists will say no, we can
imagine gravity being different

491
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,000
than the way it is.
It's not.

492
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,320
But you know, for us, gravity is
a calculation.

493
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,440
We have a constant,
gravitational constant.

494
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,880
Could there be a universe where
the gravitational constant is

495
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,080
different?
Mathematically, there's no

496
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,280
reason that we would know why
so.

497
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,800
So it could be necessary.
If it's not necessary, then

498
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,720
there are two options.
Either it's just chance or it

499
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,160
was designed.
And so in philosophy, we can use

500
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,840
the law of excluded middle to
show that those are really the

501
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,200
only three possibilities.
So in law of excluded middle

502
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,360
says you either have a property
or you don't have a property.

503
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,000
So you and it's not good for
things that are like halfway.

504
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,400
Like you could say, well, he's
balding, he's not bald.

505
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:45,680
Well, that's not what we're
talking about.

506
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,320
But you can say either he is
balding or he is.

507
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,240
Not bald.
Either he is bald or he is not

508
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,840
bald.
Either the surface is flat or is

509
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,280
not flat.
It can't, you know, can't be

510
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,120
both.
So you would say either it is

511
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:03,800
necessary or not necessary.
So that's the first law of

512
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,160
excluded middle.
It can't be a little bit

513
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,080
necessary and a little bit.
Not necessary, right?

514
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,160
Right.
That makes sense.

515
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,680
And then if it's not necessary,
either it is by chance or it's

516
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,520
not by chance.
And so another way we talk about

517
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,440
not being by chance, we would
say that's design.

518
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,480
It was designed to be that way.
And so you could split those

519
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,280
categories up.
Even further.

520
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's still all going to be

521
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,880
under the category of necessity,
chance, or design.

522
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,480
OK, that makes sense.
Because for whatever reason, I

523
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,560
feel like people just don't
like, I don't know, I think

524
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,520
people want it both ways.
They like there being something

525
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,440
out there, but they also like
chance.

526
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,560
Do you know what I mean?
Like they don't like to drill it

527
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,040
down, especially not like a
specific creator.

528
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,200
It's like maybe like the
universe is at work, but it's

529
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,080
kind of chance and things just
happened.

530
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,120
Yeah, you'll see people.
There was I was listening to, I

531
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,440
think it was Greg Kokol.
He had some guests on and they

532
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:08,720
were talking about it was trip.
I'm not gonna remember their

533
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,560
names.
The two gymnasts that he has,

534
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,200
Trip and some Megan Allman, I
think.

535
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Are their names OK?
And she was talking about how I

536
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,880
think it was her talking about
how every culture, every person

537
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,320
has some God.
OK.

538
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Something that they find meaning
in.

539
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,440
And you will, you will, you'll
either be the ultimate God or

540
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,240
something lesser.
And I think that goes to your

541
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,040
point because, you know, you
talk about Joe Rogan earlier.

542
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,160
He's like, well, what if aliens
'cause people try to, you know,

543
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,200
they want purpose.
They want mean they don't want

544
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,880
this to be, you know, the blind,
pitiless and different universe

545
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,800
that Richard Dawkins talks
about.

546
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,360
They want something that they
can find meaning in, but they

547
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,800
don't want that thing to be
perfect, morally perfect and and

548
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,320
hold you accountable.
They want all you know as you

549
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,080
know they they want it both ways
and and you can't have it both

550
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,760
ways.
Can't have it both ways.

551
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,840
OK, so that that's good.
So you're going to get into some

552
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,520
physics for us.
Yeah, maybe some physics, maybe

553
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,120
some, you know, just some more
parameters to the things to

554
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,120
think about about, you know, the
Earth and our place in the

555
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,040
Galaxy, our place in our solar
system.

556
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,880
And we'll talk about, you know,
some things that would make you

557
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,400
think that Earth is a privileged
planet, you know, so.

558
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,320
Yeah, love it.
Nice episode one out of three.

559
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,520
Yeah, that's that's there we go
this.

560
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,560
Is good.
We kind of got it's funny.

561
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,280
This is like at at Bob Jones
old.

562
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,920
They love talking about fine
tuning, love talking about

563
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,720
specified irreducible
complexity.

564
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,160
Don't like talking about here
us.

565
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,200
That's where that's where it's
like we don't talk about

566
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,040
supernova, supernova seating,
all that.

567
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,920
So everything else is like they
drill so hard, but then they're

568
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,440
like they stop at the older
stuff.

569
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,280
Yeah, well, if it's if
everything was created de Novo,

570
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,920
like boom, you come into
existence like it could be any

571
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:02,600
arrangement that you want to and
and that would still be a

572
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,240
miracle, right?
And I'm not saying you're not

573
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,640
denying that.
But if everything came about by

574
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,240
the natural processes that God
set up, but he you know, there

575
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:18,040
was the the term fully something
planet fully.

576
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,160
I don't, but it's basically this
idea that God set up the

577
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:29,120
physical laws and The Big Bang
in such a way that he knew as

578
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,560
those physical because the
matter we can look at the radio,

579
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,960
the background rate turned away
from my mic.

580
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,320
We can look at the background
radiation of and it's not evenly

581
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,960
spread like you would think that
it'd be like peanut butter

582
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,640
spread.
But we find these places where

583
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,240
it's a little bit hotter and
places where it's a little bit

584
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,800
colder.
And those small differences are

585
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,240
what led to there being a Galaxy
here and not a Galaxy here or

586
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,360
maybe a cluster of galaxies here
and this huge void.

587
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,240
Like there are these huge voids
in space.

588
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,160
Like you have Galaxy, Galaxy,
Galaxy, trillions and billions

589
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:12,240
of galaxies and then these like
billions of light years were

590
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,400
from what we can tell, there's
nothing there.

591
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:20,520
And so, you know, if you, if you
have an overview and you think,

592
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,440
well, God set this out on this
thing.

593
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,280
He knew exactly how at the very
beginning, all that had to be

594
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,440
arranged in the laws that had to
happen so that, you know, our

595
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,600
physical universe would create,
would produce a Earth.

596
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,120
But it was still miraculous on
my view so.

597
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,280
I love it.
I'm excited to jump into next

598
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,040
two episodes.
Yeah.

599
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,200
All right, that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

600
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,400
Two.
Find us wherever you find

601
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,920
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

602
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:51,600
video cast.