Teleological Argument Part 3 | The Fine-Tuning Argument

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School, man, they are just
they're they're I I am a big

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advocate of school.
I like school.

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If I could just be in school the
rest of my life, it's way better

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than working A.
Job you got to got to earn

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money.
But you got to earn money.

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I thought about going back and
getting my doctorate but I don't

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know.
Dudes, hey, you know, it's not

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for everyone, Michael.
It's not.

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It's not what it's cracked up
to.

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Do should we start calling you
doctor?

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Hale, that's what I want to get
to.

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I need some more respect here.
Everyone just called me Zach or

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heaven forbid, Mr. Mr. Hale or
something like no.

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Unbelievable.
Should I is there there should

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be a title that goes along with
having a master's degree?

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There should be.
Yeah, there should be.

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I'm trying to.
Master probably has fallen out

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of favor.
Not, not a good look right now.

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Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm trying to, I,

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I just, you know, the way a lot
of doctors shut their clinical

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doctorates.
So it's just you get a lot of

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hours and you get it.
But I, you know, I never did the

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masters.
So I'm, I'm going back to get

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the masters.
I went out.

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Of order, I have a bachelor's
and a doctorate, correct, but

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not a but that's but yeah.
That's how it works, Clint.

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That's how it works for.
Yeah, yeah.

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But I mean, you put in, you
probably put in the time of like

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someone who got a like a
master's in mathematics and then

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a doctorate in mathematics.
Yep.

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Basically what they found out
was like physical therapy used

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to be a master's, and they were
like, if you just add like 16

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credits, it goes to it.
It was like kind of close.

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And they thought that maybe, you
know, we could get more

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autonomy.
Yeah, turns out the AMA American

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Medical Association has a lot
more lobbying power than the

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American Physical Therapy
Association.

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So we're not in any.
We're not gonna touch what they

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got.
But all that to say, school is

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like, honestly, school is crazy.
Between the difference in

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schools, the difference in
professors, what different

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schools wants arbitrary rules.
I don't know if this is like a

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school thing or just where I
went to undergrad but I got

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penalized for when when I I I
have a hard time.

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I don't understand the SAT
'cause I only took the ACT but

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based on testing scores I was
not allowed to take like some

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basic math or basic English but
I did not.

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It's not like I clept or got
credit for it, but I just got

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placed where like all my friends
were in English 101.

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I started in English.
Like to a higher standard?

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Yeah, without the benefit of.
Getting the credit and like the

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easy stuff.
And I don't know if that's like

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just where I went to school rule
or they place you in these

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higher things, but I think
that's weird.

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Yeah, that is weird.
I, I, I, I haven't encountered

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that cause most, most colleges
will let you take the lower.

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Now what?
I had something kind of the

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opposite spectrum because I had
a bachelors of science and

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mathematics and we used to make
fun of the Bachelors of

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education, Bachelors of Arts,
Mathematics, 'cause that's what

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'cause that was we're Bachelors
of science, your bachelors of

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arts.
We had to take, you know, some

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higher level math.
They didn't have to take a few

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more math credits and of course,
they had to go take their

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teacher, you know, their
teaching, you know the methods.

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There's a word pedagogical
courses, but I took a advanced

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mathematics, OK, yeah, one and
two and I took differential

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equations one or two.
Sounds terrible.

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And differential equation comes
after calculus.

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So basically you're looking at
equations that are the equations

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of slopes and you're figuring
out.

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So all that to say, when I
that's the background, just so

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you understand a lot of math, a
lot of in depth math when I was

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in the Navy, well, I'll say
this, when I was doing my

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bachelor's, I started taking
computer science classes because

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they're a part of our
requirements, because computer

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science and math is really
closely related.

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And I was like, man, I'd change
my major to be a computer

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science major if I hadn't
already changed it twice and is

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in my like my senior year.
So, but I was like, you know,

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maybe computer sciences where
it's at.

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So I was in the Navy and then my
first job out of the Navy, I

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went back to the College of
Charleston because my plan was

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to just go out.
I, I called them, I was like,

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I'd like to go get a degree in
computer science.

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I'm like, well, you already have
a degree in math, why don't you

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just go get a masters in
computer science?

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I was like, OK.
So yeah.

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So then I was like, well, you
need to take these prereqs to do

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that.
And so I ended up not getting my

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masters.
This is a long story for a

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little payoff, but they made me
take discrete mathematics.

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Because you had.
Because it was not on my

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transcript.
I'm like, discrete mathematics

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is a lower level of advanced
mathematics, one and two and the

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differential equation, they're
like, you have to have this one

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to go into the master's program.
And so it was a easy A, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.
But it was like, what are we

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doing here?
I was.

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Like what are we doing?
Like I could, can I test out of

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this?
No, you have to take it.

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I was like, OK, I'll I'll go
take it.

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If I had been the bachelor's
arts, they did take.

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They did.
That's so.

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Funny how it's different.
Where my story goes wrong And it

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made me, it's so mad 'cause I
could have taken this like easy

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English class and, and, and as
you know, I don't love stories.

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I had to take like this Brit lit
class and I'm like, this is like

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my, like I had to take for my
basic English, I'm taking

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British literature.
I'm like, I don't want to do any

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of this.
And then for math.

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Jane Austen.
It also, yeah, we did like,

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yeah, exactly.
Terrible stuff.

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And then for math, it got me to
like my freshman year, I took a

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class, they called it
transcendental functions, but

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it's basically trig.
And then so that that was like

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my basic math, I had to take
like 2 maths and I didn't

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realize this because I, This is
why it's a sore spot with me

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because I was like, oh, all my
friends are taking like.

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College Algebra.
Yeah, exactly.

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And so it's like, oh, but
they're taking college algebra

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and transcendental functions.
I was like, oh, I just took

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transcendental functions.
Skipped it.

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Great.
My senior year, like I'm talking

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to my advisor's like, oh, you
need your second math.

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So I'm taking calc one, which is
fine.

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I took calc in high school, but
I haven't done calc in three

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years and it was miserable.
And I was with like a bunch of

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like freshmen math majors and it
was like I was like doing the

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worst and I'm like a senior.
It was like just a bad.

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I hated all of it.
You just called me up.

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I could have I could have helped
you through some of those

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different those.
And the worst part of it was

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like, I kind of remember this,
but I don't 'cause it was like

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from high.
And so it's like it was just

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miserable.
And honestly, power rule chain

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rule.
I, I, I tried to block it out of

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my, out of my, I didn't like go
meet with my like, I, I like

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usually classes were fine And I
was like, I'm no, I'm not doing

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good.
So I was always like seeking my

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professor out in office hours,
like really trying to be like,

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I'm trying here.
And it worked out in the long

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run.
But boy, did not like the math

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side of it.
And even I did not, I'll tell

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you what, I did not like
physics.

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I get why PT takes it.
I think it's more important for

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the concepts more than the
actual equations.

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But I did not love physics 2 and
all of that kind of stuff.

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I was like, why?
I don't care about waves.

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I mean it's like it's it's I
like the concepts but I don't

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like working out joules and
energy and all.

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It's like no.
But anyway.

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Kilo calories, calories.
It was just but I had a anyway

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it was fine.
I did not learn a lot and I was

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in a.
My two options were I could do

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calc, base physics or is the
other one trig based physics?

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Yeah, I mean it's just normal
algebra based physics.

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Yeah, yeah.
I think that was an algebra

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based physics.
Which is better?

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For me, yeah, count based
physics is where you're actually

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going to, you know, solve for
some, you know, I want to say

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differential equations,
derivatives where, you know, you

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find the slope because, you
know, acceleration is the well,

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the slope of your position is
your speed, the slope of your

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speed is your acceleration the
and the slope of your

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acceleration is your impulse.
And so all those are basically

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derivatives of each other.
And so of calculus based physics

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you're doing the.
Calculus behind that stuff.

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I'll tell you what I me and them
buddy idiots in this physics

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class full of and most of the
people in our class were like

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pre Med, pre physical therapy.
It was the kind of all this it

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was not math majors.
It was more of like these pre

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professional degrees and me and
my buddy, dumbest kids in the

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class aced physics, wanted
physics wanted to mainly because

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our professor was an idiot.
And no he wasn't.

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He's a really nice guy, really
smart guy.

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But he would give us quizzes and
his quizzes he used to like

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answer banks, which was not
great.

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And we figured this out and I
just like literally memorized.

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OK, 1.86 like I've memorized
certain things to look out for

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and on the exam I was like I
recognize this, I recognize

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this, recognize this finished it
in like 8 minutes got like a 97.

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It was amazing so.
It was a multiple choice, yeah.

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And you knew that if it had this
question in it, but this was the

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answer because you just studied
your question.

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And there were some things that
did not.

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Do you think you did it?
On purpose.

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I don't know, I was like, that's
a really poor way to learn

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because it's not like I can
understand if it's like history

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class and that's how you learn
because it's like memory.

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But it did not help me
understand working out these

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problems.
You know what?

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I mean I would give when I was
teaching trig.

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I would give as a take home
quiz.

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OK.
Yeah, yeah.

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Basically the test.
I would give them the test.

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But people don't know that.
I mean, people don't.

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I wouldn't say it's a test.
I would say, you know, this is a

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take home, use everything you
can, but be sure you know how to

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do this.
And some students would catch on

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like they're.
Like.

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And they didn't.
They, one of them said to me at

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the end of the year, like I
realized that your take home

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quizzes were your test and I
didn't want to say anything like

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I didn't know it, like I didn't
realize it and the and like, did

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you?
Why didn't you?

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And I was like, well, I want you
to learn how to do this math.

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And if you do, to put in the
time to figure out how to do it

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on your own via a take home
quiz.

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00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,000
And then you can demonstrate it.
You know, I know there's going

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to be some loss and, you know,
there's some cramming effect,

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but yeah, yeah, yeah.
Math is pretty cumulative.

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So it builds on itself.
So you can't that can only last

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for so long.
But yeah, yeah.

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That that was on purpose for me.
I was like, great, I don't, I

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don't care.
I want you to learn how to do

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this math.
That's the goal here.

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Dude physics was so miserable
for me.

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I actually really enjoyed the
lectures did not enjoy homework

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00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,800
or tests and for however it was
set up where I went to school it

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was it was like physics one and
two were both 5 credits.

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So it was like a Monday through
Friday 5 lab.

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Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?

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It's.
Normally 4 it's.

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00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,720
Normally 4. 3 + a lab and one
hour lab.

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00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,160
And ours were not set up.
I don't know, I guess Bob Jones

227
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,720
things however they want to do,
they make their own rules.

228
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,240
And it was like just miserable
because it was like 4 lectures

229
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,680
and then a long lab is like all
the it's just being shoved down

230
00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:36,920
my throat.
But you know, it's good.

231
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,280
I made it.
I made it through.

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00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,400
That's sorry, spent a long time
on three.

233
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,480
Yeah, this is a lot, a lot of
higher education grievances.

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00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,200
Well, hopefully you have some
higher education because we're

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00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,800
going to be talking.
This is our third and final

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00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,000
nice, at least for current plan,
we could always revisit the

237
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,680
topic.
That's right, of the

238
00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:57,880
teleological argument.
Today we're going to be talking

239
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,680
about the fine tuning argument.
It's a type of argument that

240
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,160
William Lane Craig gives, and I
think if you've been following

241
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,240
us through our other arguments,
this will seem a little bit

242
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,200
strange how it's structured, but
hopefully you're prepared for

243
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:12,920
with the groundwork we've done
so far.

244
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,800
So with that, let's take it to
the next level.

245
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,080
From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

246
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,440
It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

247
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,680
level.
All right, so just to recap what

248
00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:35,680
we have covered before we
episode one, we really kind of

249
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:40,720
just defined terms introduced
you to like some of these key

250
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,080
terms like specified complexity
or reducible complexity.

251
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,800
We talked about the you know,
some options to explain away

252
00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,920
fine tuning or you know, does
you know apparent design.

253
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,080
We don't want to say design is
design, but you know, necessity,

254
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,160
chance or design.
Talked about thinkers like

255
00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,360
Paley, Demske, Behe.
Behe I like.

256
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:02,240
That name, Behe?
Yeah.

257
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,120
Michael Behe, Episode 2.
We looked at some of how these

258
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,080
applied to like our local area,
like our Earth, the life here,

259
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,960
our, our Galaxy, our solar
system, those types of things.

260
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,440
So now we're gonna talk about
the cosmos at large, and we're

261
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,840
gonna talk about the fine tuning
of the cosmos itself.

262
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,280
And this is unfortunately for
use.

263
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:27,800
We're gonna talk about some
physics.

264
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,800
Physics equations.
But I I like physics, just, you

265
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,320
know, not the, not the actual
equations, but like the

266
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,200
concepts, the concepts.
We're gonna talk about the

267
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,280
concepts.
So William Lanecraig has made

268
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,520
this argument famous.
I don't know if if he came up

269
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,000
with it or if he just fine-tuned
it for his own nice for his own

270
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,440
uses, but this is the standard
form, the fine.

271
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:56,080
So he just asserts the fine
tuning because every scientists

272
00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,920
worth their salt will
acknowledge that the universe is

273
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:04,720
finely tuned for life, for the
existence of matter.

274
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,120
That's a fact.
He, he, you don't really even

275
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,040
have to defend that.
People will say we are in the

276
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,600
Goldilocks zone.
Like that's not something we

277
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:13,920
just said.
Like everyone says that.

278
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,160
Yeah, yeah.
So he's not going to necessarily

279
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,000
argue for the fine tuning, he's
just going to assert the fine

280
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,680
tuning of the universe is due
either to physical necessity,

281
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,920
chance, or design.
Which we kind of already looked

282
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,320
that those are the options,
yeah.

283
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,200
So that's checks out.
That's why I spent time talking

284
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:32,800
about those last two.
So hopefully that.

285
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,400
Ohh yeah great that and now he's
just going to assert it is not

286
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,120
due to physical necessity or
chance.

287
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:41,760
One option.
Yeah, OK.

288
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:47,280
Therefore it is due to design.
And so really the the meat of

289
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,560
this argument is saying, you
know, the premise too is where

290
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,240
you have to do most of your
defense to say it's not physical

291
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,680
necessity.
The, you know, all these

292
00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:01,920
constants, the initial
conditions of the universe could

293
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,960
have been different.
So it's not physical necessity

294
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,480
and it's not chance.
Like the chances are wild, like,

295
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,480
you know, the dumb and Dumber,
you know, what is the chances of

296
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,760
a guy like me getting together
here?

297
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,520
One in 10100, More like one in a
million.

298
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:16,560
Oh, so you tell me there's a
chance.

299
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,760
It's much, much worse than that.
Yeah.

300
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,120
Yeah.
Yeah, that's like one thing.

301
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,360
If it was like one in 100, not
likely, but not those kind of

302
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,120
things happen.
It's way worse than that.

303
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:33,120
It's way worse than that.
All right, so premise one, we've

304
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,680
already really covered this.
There is fine tuning and do the

305
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,720
law of excluded middle.
It either has to be necessary or

306
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,600
not necessary.
If it's not necessary, we can

307
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,200
break that into two different
components either by chance or

308
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,320
not by chance and but not by
chance means someone has

309
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,960
tinkered with it, someone has
designed it, someone has made it

310
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,800
be that way.
Has there's been agent causation

311
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:04,400
in that?
So premise 2, we're going to say

312
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:10,000
it's not physical necessity.
And So what we're saying is

313
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,000
there's nothing that this is, I
think, hard for people to wrap

314
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,520
their minds around because
they're like, well, the

315
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,840
gravitational constant is.
This but what?

316
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,240
We're saying is there could be a
universe that could exist or the

317
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,680
gravitational constant was a
different.

318
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,320
It could be like slightly off
and we would.

319
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,120
We could still survive and we
could live.

320
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,160
No, no, no, no, no.
What we're going to show is that

321
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,920
there's nothing that would make
that constant have to be that

322
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,600
physically, but if it was
different, then everything was

323
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,440
bad.
Things are bad.

324
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,080
So if it's just like a tiny bit
difference.

325
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,520
Tiny bit difference.
Either life can't exist or in

326
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,000
some cases matter.
Doesn't even form.

327
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,520
Like you can have all these
particles, but they can't

328
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,920
really.
They can't form any, you know,

329
00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,640
concrete matter like bonds and
like chemical bonds and stuff.

330
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,800
OK, gotcha.
So it is necessary it's.

331
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,480
That's why it's what we're
saying is in order for there to

332
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:17,840
be a life permitting universe,
these have to be finely tuned

333
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,560
like they are.
But there's nothing that's

334
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:26,200
forcing the gravitational
constant to be 6.674 * 10 to the

335
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:26,960
negative.
It just.

336
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,600
Happens to be that way.
Well, I.

337
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,480
Know, I know it is that way, and
it happens to be precisely what

338
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,040
it would have to be for life to
be there, but there's nothing

339
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,080
metaphysically that's making it
there OK.

340
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,200
It could have been different.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

341
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,200
It could have been different.
Right, but if it were different

342
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,240
then life wouldn't exist.
That makes sense.

343
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,440
I kind of I am confused because
I would I guess we keep.

344
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:52,960
I don't want to, I don't want to
bog us down.

345
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,040
No, the oysters are probably.
On the same question, because I

346
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,960
get this, when I taught this,
this is where we got kind of

347
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,920
bogged down.
Yeah, 'cause on the surface I

348
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,920
thought you're saying, oh,
things don't necessarily have to

349
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,760
be this way, but now it seems
like they necessarily do have to

350
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,119
be this way.
But I would.

351
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,079
But when we're thinking about
our object pick, oh, I think

352
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,480
there's a designer though.
But those are like mutually

353
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,280
exclusive, it seems like.
Yeah, So what?

354
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,160
What?
Physically it could have been

355
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,440
different, right what we're
saying and but and if it were

356
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,440
physically different, then it
would no longer be a life

357
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:26,800
permitting.
There would be no.

358
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,960
OK, Yeah.
What we're saying so in in this,

359
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:34,600
practically it has to be this,
but logically it could have been

360
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,880
different is what we're saying.
Gotcha.

361
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,360
Logically, it's not necessary,
right?

362
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,720
But practically it is necessary
and that's why there's a

363
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:41,520
designer.
Yeah.

364
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:42,560
OK.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

365
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,720
That makes sense.
So there's no like gravity just

366
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,120
has to be this logically, but if
you want life, it has to.

367
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,440
Be this way.
So that's what we're saying

368
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,760
there.
And then the chance is just

369
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,120
crazy.
So we have some of these.

370
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,080
So this applies to constants and
initial conditions.

371
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,040
So we just took a cross country
trip.

372
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,480
Not really cross country, you
know, from Charleston to Bald

373
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,880
Knob and back.
We had to constantly fill up our

374
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,760
tank with gas.
OK.

375
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:18,400
Yep.
Yeah.

376
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:24,200
'Cause you burn gas, we convert
that usable energy into, you

377
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,160
know, energy of motion, energy
of heat, energy of sound.

378
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:32,000
And in doing that, we're
increasing the entropy, right?

379
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,600
We're basically reducing the
amount of usable energy that's

380
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:42,120
available.
So our universe began with

381
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:48,840
extremely low entropy, IEA lot
of usable energy.

382
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,840
And that is one of the things,
one of the initial conditions

383
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,960
that is not explained.
Like, there's no reason that our

384
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,720
we should start out at such a
high energy level for The Big

385
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,480
Bang.
It could have started at a low

386
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,480
energy level and immediately
gone to 0 Kelvin everywhere and

387
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,800
basically be a deadless,
lifeless universe for forever,

388
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,440
you know?
But we started with very high

389
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,320
amounts of usable energy.
That's one of those initial

390
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,720
conditions.
Some of the constants that we

391
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,680
observed, gravitational
constant, we already talked

392
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,160
about if there's slight changes
in it, there's no star formation

393
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,440
or stars wearing out way too
fast.

394
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:32,000
Cosmological constant.
This basically is how fast

395
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,640
controls how fast our universe
is expanding.

396
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,920
And if it were, you know, too
big, I don't know which way it

397
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,520
goes.
So we'll just say if it were,

398
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,440
you know, just off, either
everything flies apart too fast,

399
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,840
galaxies never form, or
everything rebounds on itself.

400
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,200
And we can't.
Yeah, strong nuclear force with

401
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,000
it has to be finely tuned within
±5%.

402
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,160
Without that there would be no
atoms and no fusion.

403
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,160
Electromagnetic force has to be
finely tuned.

404
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,680
Within one and 137 any slight
variation we wouldn't have

405
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,920
chemistry where we'd have
unstable atoms.

406
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,160
Proton neutron mass difference
is 1.29 mega electron volts.

407
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,640
Any change we would have no
hydrogen and that would be no

408
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,720
stars and therefore no
chemistry.

409
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,040
So these are just a handful
there.

410
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,200
I think there's like 30 or 40.
Of these more of those, yeah.

411
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,240
So if.
We look at chance, the values

412
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,040
are not necessary, they're
contingent.

413
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,040
So the chance in the physical
necessity kind of roll together.

414
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,400
But we are talking about the
cosmological argument.

415
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,360
We talked about the entropy.
So Rodger Penrose estimated that

416
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,960
our chances of the current of
the initial conditions of our

417
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,640
universe just happened to be
have as much energy as we did.

418
00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:02,800
Usable energy is 1 in 10 raised
to the 10 raised to the 123.

419
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,120
Yeah, when you got two of the
raisings in there, that's when

420
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,200
you know it's, that's when
you're doing the big numbers.

421
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,640
That is a huge number.
So basically you can think of 10

422
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,920
to the 123.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that.

423
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:20,920
Is one with 123 zeros behind it.
OK, Whatever number that is,

424
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,960
we're raising 10 to that number
and that's how many zeros behind

425
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,360
it you would have.
And it's just, it's just crazy.

426
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,600
So more than 123, you know that
many numbers.

427
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,600
Yeah, that's a lot of a lot of
numbers.

428
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,920
Cool.
We talked about the

429
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,640
electromagnetic force versus
gravity finely tuned within 10

430
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,320
to the 36th.
So if it were different by one

431
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:50,640
in 10 to the 40 no stars form.
And so these numbers are just,

432
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,640
you know, if I said, hey, Zach,
I got a good game for you.

433
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,800
I'm going to flip a coin and
every time it lands on heads I

434
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,600
get a dollar.
And every.

435
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,680
Time it lands on tails, you get
a dollar and if it was a fair

436
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,200
coin, you'd be like basically,
the more we flip it, we're

437
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,520
basically going to be even.
Maybe I owe you $2, maybe you.

438
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,600
But if I flip it like 10 times
in a row and it's heads, heads,

439
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,320
heads, heads, heads, you'd be
like, something's going on here.

440
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,080
I think something's fixed, but
this would be like, you know,

441
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,760
flipping this coin, you know,
heads like 4000 times in a row,

442
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,000
like something is something's
off.

443
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,680
Something's off here.
This has been fixed.

444
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:29,840
You wouldn't say that it was
just.

445
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,800
Random chance.
Just random chance.

446
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Craig Wieland, Craig is

447
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,440
quoted to say if the constants
were different, we wouldn't be

448
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,600
here.
That's not an explanation.

449
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,960
It's just restating the mystery.
And so there is a mystery to why

450
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,320
we're we're here, and it all
points to us having been

451
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,040
designed.
So the conclusion is there's

452
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,800
nothing that physically requires
those constants to be.

453
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,280
There's nothing that logically
requires those constants to be

454
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,000
what they are.
They could have been different,

455
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,040
but if they were different then
life wouldn't form.

456
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,880
And the, the fine tuning of
those is so, you know, they

457
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,480
always say on a razor's edge,
but you can't really, there's no

458
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,160
words to explain mathematically
how well, finely tuned they are.

459
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,160
Yeah, that's good.
It would be like helpful to like

460
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,400
just have like a Word document
with the .0000 just, you know

461
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,480
what I mean?
Like that's what I mean.

462
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Like if you just had like even
like pages lined up, it just

463
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,800
shows you like how rare it is.
Well, there you know there are

464
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:45,360
only 10 to the 80 subatomic
particles.

465
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,160
In.
The in the whole universe, so

466
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,520
there you could not.
If you lined up every subatomic

467
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,160
particle in the universe, you
would not have enough zeros to

468
00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:01,280
to do this because this is not
ten to the 80, it's this is 10

469
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,960
to the 10 to the 123.
There's not enough.

470
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,520
You could you could string
together A1 with one over every

471
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,640
single subatomic particle in the
universe, and it's and that's.

472
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,680
It's still not enough.
Man, yeah.

473
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,200
Yeah, it's mind boggling.
That is mind.

474
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,720
Boggling, you said something.
I was going to say it now.

475
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,600
Maybe it maybe it'll come to me.
All right.

476
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,800
So is this a good argument?
I I think it is the form is

477
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,400
valid, although it's a different
form.

478
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,000
The fine tuning is either due to
these three things.

479
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,480
It's not due to these two
things.

480
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,320
They're it almost.
Seems like silly in a good way.

481
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:41,600
Like I can track with this,
you're just like narrowing it

482
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,320
down, right?
Yeah, it's not God of the Gaps,

483
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,920
'cause we're not, we're not,
we're not saying we don't know.

484
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,920
We're saying we do know all
these things.

485
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,080
We kind of talked a little bit
last time about some alternate

486
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,120
explanations.
Some theologians will say you

487
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,960
should never argue for God's
existence or the existence of

488
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,400
fine tuner based on science
because it could change because.

489
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,760
We get new scientific journals.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

490
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,480
But.
These are fairly stable science.

491
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,680
These are remarkably stable
constants.

492
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,480
Entropy force balances.
So it's not like we're hinging

493
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,720
this on some, you know, new
science that could be here today

494
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,000
and got them wrong.
Obviously there are revolutions

495
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,280
in science every now and then.
We went from, you know,

496
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:35,520
Aristotelian physics to, oh,
who's the the Isaac Newtonian

497
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,520
physics to Einsteinian physics.
But all of those things,

498
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,120
actually, each one of those
revolutions taught us how finely

499
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:46,720
tuned everything new.
So I think if we have another

500
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,720
revolution, it's it's going to
be just more of a weave and

501
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,520
understand this more.
Wow, it's even more finely

502
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,440
tuned.
Yeah, that's, that's really

503
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,880
good.
Yeah.

504
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,520
So what?
What are, in light of these

505
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,880
staggering statistics, I guess
the answer is evolution.

506
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,880
Well, evolution.
This is a holdover from my notes

507
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,000
that probably GPT shouldn't be
here.

508
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,360
But yeah, so evolution doesn't
explain any of our you know, if

509
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:17,960
we're talking about all of what
we've talked about, we've we

510
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,840
said, you know, evolution can't
explain the origin of the DNA,

511
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,080
can't explain the information
that's present in the code.

512
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,560
It can't explain the conditions
that are required for life.

513
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:32,120
So you can't just say fine
tuning O evolution because you

514
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,960
know, it doesn't explain those
multiverse is where things are

515
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,720
probably going to get pushed in
this.

516
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,880
We've already talked about that.
That was the end of the last

517
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,000
episode, right?
Yep.

518
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,200
Yeah, that's right.
But the multiverse over explains

519
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,160
it over proves the point here,
because one, it would have to be

520
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:57,320
finely tuned 2 in order for it
to do what we're saying, we

521
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:04,880
would need, you know, every
possible permutation of universe

522
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,440
to be created.
And so then we would say, you

523
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,440
know, based on that thought
process, everything that could

524
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,400
happen, it is going to happen an
infinite number of times.

525
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,120
So I know what I was going to
say a while ago.

526
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:16,960
Oh yeah.
Go fuck me.

527
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,560
You know, have you ever you've
watched Priceless, right where

528
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,000
they spin that wheel?
Yeah.

529
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,600
In my mind I think of like this,
you know, light years long of

530
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,840
all these different wheels with
like all these different.

531
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,240
They all have to.
And then you have to spin all of

532
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,040
them and they all line up on,
you know, some exact number that

533
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,960
hits exactly what you what you
want, you know, on all of them.

534
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,280
It's like that is just.
Crazy.

535
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,120
But it would be, it would be
like that if you have man, you

536
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,360
know, probably, it's probably
even under doing the math.

537
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:50,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But if you think, you know, you

538
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,960
just had these man, billions of
those things, you got spin this

539
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,960
one, spin this one, spin this
one, spin this one.

540
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,840
And they all line up to what you
needed to be just incalculable

541
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,400
quantum mechanics.
Some people have said that, you

542
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,720
know, the laws of quantum.
Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know,

543
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,560
and Mark Krauss have said that,
well, gravity explains how all

544
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,080
this came in because of the
laws.

545
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,000
What?
Well, you have to have an

546
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,560
explanation of the law like the
law does.

547
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,960
This doesn't come up by itself,
you know, that The Big Bang

548
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,400
happened from the laws of
gravity and the laws of gravity

549
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,040
and the laws of, you know,
quantum mechanics and stuff.

550
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,600
Explain why things are finely
tuned that way.

551
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,960
Well, then that what they're
really appealing to is physical

552
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,200
necessity.
It just had to be this way.

553
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:45,520
But we have whole fields of
scientists, physicists who look

554
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,720
at what universes would look
like if things were different.

555
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,720
And that's how we have this
science.

556
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,520
And, you know, it could be
different, but it's not, man.

557
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,160
It could be different logically.
Not physically and.

558
00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,880
Still work.
Yeah, I think that's a good

559
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,120
distinction.
That is good.

560
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,960
I love how all of these like
none of the physic like there's

561
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,840
always like question mark or
it's like, you know, relativity,

562
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,840
quantum mechanics drink.
They're just trying to, you

563
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640
know, can't explain or haven't
figured out the everything

564
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,600
lining up very perfectly.
All right.

565
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,000
So hopefully these three, the
podcasts have been edifying.

566
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,560
There's more out there if this
interests you, you know,

567
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,120
reasonably reasonable faith some
of them out there.

568
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,640
I don't know if William
Demskey's still going, but he

569
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,520
has some books.
Michael B, he has some books you

570
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,120
could read.
Steven Meyer, Guillermo Gonzalez

571
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,760
and Jay Richards put together
some stuff.

572
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,120
So there's a, there's a lot of
stuff on the, the, the T logical

573
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,160
argument, the Jay Richards and
Guillermo Gonzalez, they put out

574
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,680
some videos.
So 1 is about flight.

575
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,520
You can find these and you can,
they may be probably streamable

576
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,200
by now, but I remember watching
them on a, a DVD1's about the

577
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,600
flight and how crazy that is. 1
is about Caterpillar turning to

578
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,680
a butterfly and how, you know,
the fact that that's coded for

579
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,040
in its DNA and basically goes
from one type of Organism to

580
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,320
another type of Organism.
And like, how could that ever be

581
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,560
passed on?
How could that ever be selected

582
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,320
for?
And then I think they have a new

583
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,920
one out that I've heard Cocol
talking about, but I don't

584
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,680
remember what it is right now,
but yeah, you.

585
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,160
Forgot something.
I forgot something.

586
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,400
People said they're can't.
Believe it.

587
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,240
Yeah, this is great.
Learned a lot.

588
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,000
Add it to the apologetic
playlist.

589
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,280
You know, with all our other
ones, it's great.

590
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:46,720
All right.
Anything else?

591
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,600
That's it man, stack up these
arguments, go find someone and

592
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,080
just challenge them, see what
they got to say.

593
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,000
I like it.
Yeah.

594
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,040
And most of the time, really
questions are your way through

595
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,000
this, you know, how did you come
to that conclusion?

596
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,400
Did you really think, does that
make sense to you?

597
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,960
And then help them see, you
know, kind of some of the, the

598
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,360
absurdity of what they're
believing.

599
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,440
Yeah, it's good.
I like it.

600
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,200
All right, that is our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

601
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,400
Two.
Find us wherever you find

602
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,920
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

603
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:17,600
video cast.