The Moral Argument and More: Why God Is the Best Explanation

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So Zach, we've talked about half
baked ideas before and we just,

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you know, recorded a podcast on
the Old Testament sacrificial

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sacrificial systems and maybe
probably not baked at all as

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this idea of, you know, re
enacting, you know, an animal

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sacrifice, you know, just
doesn't hit the sensibilities of

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where we are today in our modern
culture.

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Yep, that's right.
But, you know, have you ever

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seen, you know, the CPR dummies
that you can do do stuff on or

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like when we went to Anderson,
we were looking at the nursing

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lab and the doctor.
Like they have patients there

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that, you know, you can like,
take their blood pressure.

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You can take start an IV and
like they have all these vital

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signs.
Yeah.

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What if we oh man Commission
like?

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Honestly.
Cow a fake cow, a fake ram.

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The Ark Encounters.
Just dying for this.

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I'm being serious.
Ken Ham, get on this.

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You owe us royalties.
We set it for.

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We call dibs.
That's a good idea.

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Yeah.
So you have basically a cow

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that's not really a cow, but you
could show like this is what

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would happen.
Like, you know, they're gonna

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slit the neck and they're gonna
let the the neck artery bleed

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out.
You could have the fluid in

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there and then.
This is one of your smartest.

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This is not happening.
This is great.

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And then you could also in the
same thing, it's like you have

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all the priestly garb and like
people like this would be a

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great experiential thing, like
you step into it.

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I want to see the kidneys with
the fat on the kidneys.

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Like what do you do with that?
You're going to have to have

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some dung and you know, all of
that could be built in there.

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And then you put it back in and
take it to another church and

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you show them how to do it, you
know?

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Dad, don't air this.
We'll take some seed money.

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That's a good idea.
That's like so that because it's

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like people do don't have any
context and there's got to be a

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way to do something that's
interesting.

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I I would love that.
And if you once you could really

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build out Ken Hams, the one who
could do this, you could really

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like be like, hey, well, here's
the tap.

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We're going to unpack the whole
Tabernacle, whatever.

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You know, it's like, man,
there's something there that

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that's.
A that's.

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I like that idea.
Maybe it's maybe it's 3/4 baked.

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Fully baked out.
Yeah.

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You know, sometimes I look at
Michael and I say, what's he

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thinking?
And other times I say, yeah,

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that that's a good idea.
The other, the other side of it,

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he walked in and to his horror,
he was freaking out about his

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shirts.
So you should get on YouTube and

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look, it's not blending in with
the green screen at all.

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He's got a little blue in there.
He's got a very tiny stripe of

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blue.
And he was like, podcast is

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ruined.
I can't, I don't, I can't cast

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in this.
I didn't change.

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Yeah, normally I tried to wear
like a a solid maroon color

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'cause it's, you know, red is
the opposite.

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Like you know your color wheel
red is the opposite of green.

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That's.
No, your wheel.

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Yeah.
And, and, and so we have had

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colors similar to this that have
had problem bleeding, bleeding

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in.
So I'm hoping that I'm not just

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a floating head right now.
He's taking shots at me.

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He's like, we got color like
this sometimes.

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Is that, is that where it's?
But it's great.

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He was like, Oh no, I'm wearing
a tiny bit of blue.

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Well, 'cause Gray.
I.

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Gray, Yeah, yeah, Gray color
theory Gray is like a little bit

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of blue, a little bit of green,
a little bit of red, and so when

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you start taking the green out
of Gray, it goes away and so.

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Yeah, hey, don't say you didn't
learn anything on this podcast.

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That's great.
And if you thought the color

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wheel was exciting, buckle down
for some philosophy.

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And this is good.
Honestly, you listen to the

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handful of philosophy podcasts
that we have on here, you're

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going to like, you'll be well
equipped 'cause I think, I think

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what we do well, what you do
well, I'm kind of along for the

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ride.
You give the basic and then you

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dive into it a little bit more.
So you kind of get best of both

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words where you can get.
And then if you're like, hey, I

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want to know a little bit more
underneath without going like

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crazy, you know, it's a good, I
think it's I think it's really,

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really.
Helpful without going ham.

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Without helping.
That's great.

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That's great.
I love.

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It Yeah, yeah.
So if anyone wants to market

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this idea just let me know on
royalties or something you know.

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Should have it pad patented or
something.

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Yeah, get a patent on that bad
boy that that is pretty, pretty

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amazing.
Well, let's talk philosophy, the

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moral arguments, Yeah, for God's
success.

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So we talked about.
Cosmological.

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Cosmological.
We've talked about, we haven't

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talked about teleological, have
we?

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We skipped over that one, but we
talked about cosmological and

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then we talked about Saint
Quinus's essence and existence.

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OK.
Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.
And then out of those we had a

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question from a user, not to be
confused with Ken Ham, but has a

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username.
What?

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What is the?
Username This is great.

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I something like Ken Hammy or
something like that.

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Ken Hammy I.
Love that he's been listening to

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our podcast.
We appreciate you and others who

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are faithful listeners.
Maybe.

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Maybe he knows Ken Ham, if you
know Ken Ham.

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Potentially.
Maybe it is Ken Ham.

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Maybe.
That would be awesome.

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But, you know, I, I guess in
some of what I was talking about

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in the probably more likely the
Kelong cosmological argument

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was, you know, I am an old Earth
creationist.

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So we had done some stuff on,
you know, how could you

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interpret, Is there a way to
faithfully interpret the Bible

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to be old Earth?
And you may or may not agree

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with that interpretation, but I
think it's at least in the

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ballpark.
You know, there's a way to do

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that faithfully.
And so today we're going to talk

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about the moral argument for
God's existence.

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Yeah, it's.
Great.

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Well, let's go ahead and take it
to the next level from the

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hearts of the low country in
South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
Wow, the moral argument for

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God's existence.
I love we you got we got these

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handful.
You can go different directions

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for different ways to think
about, you know, God and his

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existence.
Where where do we go?

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Let's talk morality.
Yeah, and I think this is one of

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the strongest arguments,
actually.

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It's hard to say.
I think they're all really

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convincing for me, but I, but I
think it's because I'm already,

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you know, lean that direction.
So I, I, I think it's probably

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natural.
I find them convincing.

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But I've heard a lot from
atheists or former atheists who

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said this was this is really the
thing that that got them.

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And sometimes Greg Koko will
even introduce this by saying,

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you know, one of the strongest
complaints against God's

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existence is, is the existence
of evil.

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They're.
Leaning into morality, right?

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Kind of, right?
Yeah, well they'll they'll say

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if evil's in the world then God
can't exist.

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But the the rebuttal is the only
way evil can exist.

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Objective evil is for there to
be objective.

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Good.
Yeah, I like that.

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If you're going to say that,
you're kind of conceding that

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morality is a thing.
Because really, to be an

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atheist, you got to be like,
we're Stardust, like nothing

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really matters on on one hand.
You could say on an older

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creationist, you could say we're
still Stardust.

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Too.
OK, Yeah, yeah, very true.

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I mean, Stardust and the fact
that that.

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Yeah, yeah.
That whatever happens, we're

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just chemical.
We're just, you know,

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everything's predetermined.
Like you got to really commit or

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you don't commit.
It's hard to be.

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I think a lot of people think
they're halfway atheists.

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And it's like, wow, your
worldview is not computing.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so maybe we just start out

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with the the argument itself and
then we'll talk about some of

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the premises.
There are different ways to

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structure a syllogism and I'm
not going to remember these.

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I should.
Maybe I will modus tollens and

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modus Poland's something like
that.

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Maybe, maybe you can look that
up.

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I think it's modus tollens and
modus modus.

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But anyways, while he's doing
that, I'll tell you what.

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This is the one that's less
common, but the first one.

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First premise is if God does not
exist, objective moral values

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and duties do not exist.
And it's basically saying that

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in order for objective moral
values and duties to exist, then

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there must be a God.
Second premise of the argument

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is objective.
Moral values and duties do

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exist, so therefore God must
exist.

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So should you get those two
types modus tolins and modus

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pon?
What is the second the it's the

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ponens.
Yeah, so there is modus ponens

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and modus tolins.
You're right.

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Yeah.
Yeah, you're good.

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I nailed them.
I nailed them.

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That's great.
So and this is the.

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One, and those are valid forms
of propositional logic, not

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syllogisms.
Unless, unless those are the

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same things, I don't know, I'm
just reading ChatGPT.

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Yeah, Yeah, that's a syllogism
is just a way of structuring.

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It's a three line propositional
logic.

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Yeah, yeah.
OK, we'll take it up with chat

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'cause it.
Yeah, yeah, let's hear what Chat

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says.
Chat says the whatever I typed

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in it says these are not part of
syllogistic logic, but a

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deductive inference and
propositional logic.

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Maybe there's like a minute
difference between those, maybe

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there's not, neither here nor
there.

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But anyway, I, I typed in Modis
ponens and it was saying P to QQ

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Anyway, they, they, they're
going, you know, yeah, yeah,

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yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So.
What we're saying is, yeah.

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So we'll just say #1 is not P,
not Q, OK.

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OK.
And.

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Then 2 is saying Q yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

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And then?
This says therefore P, yeah,

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yeah, yeah.
So that is the modus tollens.

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So we're saying if God does not
exist, that's the not P, then

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objective moral values and
duties do not exist.

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That's the not Q.
And then #2 is saying we're

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saying Q therefore it has to be
P God exist.

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So you can look that up on, on,
yeah.

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Look it up.
Chat will give you a lot of

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yeah, yeah.
So it is it is a sound.

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Well, it it is a formerly sound
in its its form.

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Yes.
Yeah, right.

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And So what that means is if the
first if two premises are true,

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then the conclusion follows
through force of logic like you.

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So if you want to deny the
conclusion God exists, you have

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to invalidate either premise one
or premise 2.

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Film.
I love it all right.

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So that's where the, you know,
when you're talking with

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someone, that's where they're
going to go.

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They're going to say, well, if
you want to deny premise one,

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you're going to have to say that
objective moral duties and

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values can exist outside of
there being a God.

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Or if you're going to deny
premise 2, you're going to say

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there are no objective moral
duties.

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Which I think a lot of people
today like to say, you know what

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I mean?
Maybe not when push comes to the

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shove, but it sounds really
nice, just like throwing that

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00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,480
out there.
And that's how they get, they

228
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:54,920
try to get around that
syllogism.

229
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,360
I mean, whether they're thinking
syllogism or not, like, well,

230
00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,480
God does nothing exist because
what's right, what's wrong?

231
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,760
That's what you'd say it.
Sounds nice until they express

232
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,360
outrage over something that
someone does.

233
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:05,840
Until.
You steal their wallets that.

234
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,360
Is wrong.
You should not do that.

235
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:09,760
By what standard?
Yeah.

236
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:10,920
Love it.
I love it.

237
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,040
You love the.
By what standard?

238
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:12,680
How?
By what?

239
00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:16,720
Precept 101 that's why I like
precept because I'm not I can't

240
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,400
keep up with all the classical
yeah, it's like the precept.

241
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,560
I can keep up with it.
Hey, the by by standard, yeah,

242
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,320
that's like the same.
So this actually does fall into,

243
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,040
and we'll talk about this at the
end, the transcendental argument

244
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,800
form, which is the
presuppositional favorite.

245
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,880
That's the only argument that
the that they will use.

246
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,280
So support for premise 1,
without a transcendent source

247
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:46,480
like God, morals are either have
to be subjective or they can be

248
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,840
societal constructs so they can
be outside the person.

249
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280
But it's like it's like the.
Rules of monopoly you.

250
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,800
All agree to it, yeah.
We just agree to these rules,

251
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,400
but there's nothing that really
we just.

252
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,960
Want to keep society together,
whether it's right or wrong, it

253
00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:01,400
just helps us function There is
no.

254
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:02,960
Right or wrong because.
There is no right or wrong.

255
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,000
And I think, I think this to me
this makes a lot of sense where

256
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,040
yeah, if there, if there is no
transcendent right or wrong

257
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,040
person like, yeah, I kind of,
I'm kind of right there with you

258
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:13,440
drive.
On the right side of the road,

259
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:14,560
drive on the left side of the
road.

260
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,080
Is there really a a difference?
We're just, yeah, yeah, it's

261
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,560
just.
But by convention, we're all

262
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,200
going to drive on the right side
of the road, unless you're, you

263
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,480
know, in England does this
Australia.

264
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,200
You lost the rule, lost the war,
just changed the road, you know?

265
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:30,960
Come on.
Yeah.

266
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,320
But yeah, that would be, that
would be an example of like we

267
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,000
don't think that there is some
it's kind of right or wrong.

268
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,000
It's just, it's just a societal
construct, you know, that we're

269
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,960
all agreeing to.
Or it could be preference based.

270
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,280
Like I just don't think it's
right to do fill in the blank.

271
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,880
But that's me.
I'm talking about my feelings.

272
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,680
I'm not talking about something
that is outside I, I.

273
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:57,160
Like that a lot when you look at
people like Richard Dawkins or

274
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,000
Michael Ruse or JL Mackey.
I think this is interesting that

275
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,520
these atheists, these
philosophers, they'll concede

276
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,680
that without God, morality is
not objective, right?

277
00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,200
Here's one of the famous quote
from Richard Dawkins.

278
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,000
The universe that we observe has
precisely the properties we

279
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,600
should expect if if there is at
the bottom, no design, no

280
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:21,120
purpose, no evil, no good,
nothing but blind, pitiless

281
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,960
indifference.
So he's basically conceding

282
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:30,320
that, at least on his view,
there is no good or evil.

283
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,560
Now, in a separate book, he
writes this.

284
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,680
The God of the Old Testament is
arguably the most unpleasant

285
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:39,960
character in all fiction.
Jealous and proud about it.

286
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,560
Petty, unjust, unforgiving
control freak.

287
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,040
A vindictive, bloodthirsty
ethnic cleanser.

288
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,280
A misogynistic, homophobic,
racist, infanticidal, genocidal,

289
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:56,400
philicidal, pestilential
megalomide.

290
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,560
Maniacal.
Sadomasochistic, capriciously

291
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:04,040
malevolent bully.
It's a mouthful there.

292
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,240
Say that. 10 times fast.
That's like, that's like Doctor

293
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,360
Seuss gone rogue.
Like something bad?

294
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,560
Yeah.
So he is going to say without

295
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:16,440
God there's no good or evil but.
But.

296
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,160
Oh, it looks like this guy is
really evil and that you

297
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,680
shouldn't do these.
Like, why would you have this

298
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:21,560
complaint?
Why?

299
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,480
Why is genocide bad?
Yeah.

300
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,840
Yeah, what what if there is no
God?

301
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,040
It just happens.
But to his first quote, it's

302
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,040
like to me, these people that
are so smart, it's like you, you

303
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,360
really do have to just commit
100% and really believe that or

304
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,080
you can't.
But but yes, the average person

305
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,400
on the street, they'll be like,
Oh, there's no God.

306
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,760
Maybe they think that.
I think a lot of people would

307
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,480
believe in God, whether it's the
God of the Bible, but they'll be

308
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,640
like, everything's working out
for good or something like that.

309
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,720
You know what I mean?
Like it's like it's not just

310
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,400
totally random shit, but I I
like how you put those against

311
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,760
each other because even even the
smartest of humanity can't

312
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,880
grapple with this really.
Some people like that guy can

313
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,160
never remember his name.
When I I tried to remember it.

314
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:09,400
He's a physicist, but he'll
he'll argue that well,

315
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,080
objective.
We have objective morals without

316
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:19,080
God because we know what makes
human flourishing good or human

317
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,680
flourishing take off and and
it's just like you wouldn't add

318
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,800
sugar to your gas tank because
that's.

319
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,080
Bad because it.
Doesn't help your car flourish,

320
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,520
right?
So we know the things that help

321
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,360
humanity flourish, but the
question is, why is humanity

322
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,600
flourishing a good thing?
Why are we not doing things to

323
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,720
make, you know, the German
cockroach flourish?

324
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,560
You know, we gas one of them and
we and we get mad when someone

325
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,160
else gasses the other one.
There's a big difference there.

326
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,720
So, you know, the So often times
when people try to argue around

327
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,360
the moral argument, they smuggle
this concept of goodness back

328
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,160
in.
And it's really, if you're

329
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,000
talking with someone, you just
got to be like detective, ask

330
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,320
some questions and then figure
out where they're trying to

331
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,880
smuggle morality back in, but
you know, not to identify it.

332
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,960
Cut that.
Morality, because a belief in

333
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,360
God that gives you that
grounding for moral values, what

334
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,680
we've been talking about, what
is good, what is bad, that

335
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,400
that's grounded in this
transcendent being, unchanging

336
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,840
nature of God.
And then on top of that, you got

337
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,960
these moral duties.
What we're supposed to do, we

338
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,280
need to respond in a certain
way, grounded in God's commands

339
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,640
that just kind of stems and
flows from his nature.

340
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,600
So in our free flow talk and we
kind of talked about some of

341
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,280
these objections, but we'll just
read them.

342
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,800
Objection 1.
Morality can be grounded in

343
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,440
evolution or societal consensus.
Evolution explains behavior.

344
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,480
And so if, if morality is
grounded in evolution and

345
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,520
someone can say I'm a rapist
because of my DNA, I'm a

346
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,640
murderer because of my DNA, I,
you know, whatever because of my

347
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,880
DNA, then how, who are we to put
them in a prison?

348
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,880
Like they're just living out
what their genes told them to?

349
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,240
Yeah.
Behaving in the same way as

350
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,920
scientists observing animals.
And it's like, that's OK.

351
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,680
We would say that's not OK for
us, right?

352
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:11,440
Yeah.
And objective morals are non

353
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,640
physical things, so it's hard to
understand how that could be

354
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,200
encoded in a physical strand of
DNA.

355
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,319
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that
that's fascinating.

356
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,599
Objection 2.
Morality can exist without God.

357
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,000
Objective values, they just
exist.

358
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,200
Moral Platonism.
And the answer to that, Sorry, I

359
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,880
was getting a text abstract
moral facts lack casual power.

360
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,440
Why would be more what would be
obligated to something that's

361
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,200
like these impersonal principles
theism offers a personal law

362
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,120
giver behind the laws.
Like what would be the point?

363
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:50,880
Yeah, these are just impersonal
things.

364
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,080
Doesn't matter we.
All drive down the highway we

365
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,720
see a a speed limit sign.
Yeah.

366
00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,000
That sign itself has No, we
don't we're not obligated to the

367
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,600
sign.
It has no causal power against

368
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,520
us.
We're we're you can there you

369
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,960
there's it's not even possible
to disobey a sign right That

370
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,920
sign right.
It just is standing in place of

371
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,520
people who have said, OK, by our
authority, we're going to make

372
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,760
it this speed limit.
So there has to be a law giver

373
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,080
in order for that sign to have
causal power.

374
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,000
So the same way like this, these
plate Platonic abstract ideals,

375
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,440
let's say there's an abstract
ideal of goodness or something

376
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,720
that would be just like a sign
on the highway, though there's.

377
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,040
Got to be something about
signed.

378
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,920
It yet to in order for theirs to
actually have a duty to obey it.

379
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,320
OK, that's good, 'cause I.
Could put AI, could put a sign

380
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:45,560
up.
I could do too.

381
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:46,840
Yeah, that's all let's do.
And you wouldn't.

382
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,160
Have a duty to obey because I
don't have the standing in order

383
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,240
to.
I'm not a law giver.

384
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,200
So you need a law giver in order
to have that duty.

385
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,240
All right, you want to pronounce
this name.

386
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,800
You would all.
Right, so objection 3.

387
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,120
Sometimes this name and you may
have I I hear people pronounce

388
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:07,800
it different.
Euthyphro or Euthyphro heard it.

389
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,000
Both ways.
Yeah, both ways.

390
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,680
But.
He was this guy in this, I

391
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:19,160
believe it was Socrates in this
dialogue by Socrates where he

392
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,520
maybe Plato, either Socrates or
Plato, but he's this guy who's

393
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,960
having this dialogue.
Well, let me just clarify.

394
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,800
Plato wrote all of them.
Socrates didn't write anything.

395
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,200
But sometimes we attribute some
of it to Socrates.

396
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,680
Sometimes we attribute some of
it to Plato.

397
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,000
But he's this guy.
He's and he says, why do the

398
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,080
gods command what they do?
Do they command it because it's

399
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,840
good or is it good because they
command it right?

400
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,160
What makes it is, you know,
which one is it?

401
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,520
And you could see on like a
Greek mythology where you have

402
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,920
these gods who are not good.
Oh yeah.

403
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:55,920
Yeah, yeah.
But.

404
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,800
They're commanding things like.
What makes that good?

405
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,480
They don't even necessarily
agree.

406
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,200
Is it?
Do they command it because it's

407
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:04,400
good?
Yeah.

408
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:05,600
Or does it?
Or.

409
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,680
Is it just arbitrary?
And you can see how neither one,

410
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,080
neither one of those is settling
to us Like we went and wanted to

411
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:17,640
say God the Father, he just, he
commands it because it's good.

412
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,280
Because then then they'd be
like, well, there's something

413
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,680
outside of God that makes it
good.

414
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,440
That doesn't seem right.
Or is it just arbitrary?

415
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,360
Capricious because he commanded
it?

416
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:30,440
It's good.
Becomes good.

417
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,000
He could have said anything and
it would.

418
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,560
And it's like it's forcing you
to pick and choose between these

419
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,480
two alternatives, right?
So that's one objection to this

420
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,920
idea.
And what we do is we split the

421
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,640
horns of the dilemma.
We say this is a false dilemma.

422
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,840
There's another option.
There's a third option, and the

423
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,280
option is that the good is God's
own nature.

424
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,560
He command.
He is the good.

425
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,960
He commands according to his
nature.

426
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,920
He is the ground of good.
Good.

427
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,040
So there's no external outside
of God, and it just kind of

428
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,640
flows from him and.
It's not capricious either.

429
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,320
It's built on his very essence,
his being.

430
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,040
Yeah, that's great.
So that that is premise #1 if

431
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,240
God does not exist, objective
moral values and duties don't

432
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,640
exist.
Let's move on to premise #2

433
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,200
objective moral values and
duties do exist.

434
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,120
Yeah.
So what we're saying is we're

435
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,000
premise 1 is just giving this
relationship like they in order

436
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,960
for them to exist, God has to
exist.

437
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,160
Now we're going to actually
pause it.

438
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,760
And they do exist.
And like we said before,

439
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,200
anytime, you know, most people
agree with this, most people

440
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,440
agree that it is objectively
wrong to be racist.

441
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,600
It is objectively wrong to, you
know, carry out genocide.

442
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,080
It's objectively wrong to
discriminate against people for

443
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,400
for no reason, right For you
know, And so then you would.

444
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,360
OK, so we have objective morals
and duties.

445
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,560
We have an obligation to love
each other, to treat each other

446
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,880
well to, you know, not steal
from each other, to not harm

447
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,840
each other.
Those are those are fairly

448
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,280
straightforward concepts.
Yeah.

449
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:07,280
I.
Think that's good?

450
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,760
And here you say like, like you
just mentioned, cultures

451
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,120
recognize things are bad.
You look at people like Martin

452
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,920
Luther King, Junior Bonhoeffer.
People are like, all these

453
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,080
people are great because they're
standing up for what's right.

454
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,640
There's all this moral outrage
at, at genocide, racism, maybe

455
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,600
pushing back against it.
What about, hey, I know this

456
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,160
tribe and they practice
cannibalism.

457
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,520
Like, doesn't mean it's, like,
foolproof.

458
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:29,880
Yeah.
Or you could say, hey, the

459
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,360
Holocaust did happen.
People thought it was pretty

460
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:34,720
good in the moment, I guess.
You know, Yeah.

461
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,720
Yeah.
So we will talk about some of

462
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:42,200
that, that the the the idea that
there might be widespread

463
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,040
disagreement disproves object
objectivity.

464
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,360
So those are all some things
that happen.

465
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,400
So some people will say, well,
actually it's not morality is

466
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080
subjective.
It's what we make of it.

467
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,080
And sometimes college professors
will say, you know, is it wrong

468
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,880
to lie?
And people go, yo, yeah, it's

469
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,920
wrong to lie.
Well, then was it wrong to lie

470
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,160
about the people that who are
hiding Jews from Hitler?

471
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,600
And and what what happens is
this is just like a magic trick

472
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,200
because and you just mind trick
people into believing something.

473
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,400
But the the fact is that is only
a problem if.

474
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,040
Yeah, if it's.
Actually, objectively wrong,

475
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:26,480
right?
Yeah.

476
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,920
Because you're appealing by
appealing to that, Yeah, you're

477
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,400
saying, OK, yeah, there is a
right or wrong, Yeah.

478
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,280
So what happens is sometimes you
are putting dilemmas where you

479
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,080
have to choose a greater good.
What's greater, saving a life or

480
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,480
not giving information?
Saving lives is clearly greater.

481
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:43,960
Would you?
Steal to feed your family?

482
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:44,800
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

483
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,080
So the reason that we feel the
impact of those types of

484
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,080
dilemmas is because there are
objective moral duties and

485
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,640
obligations that we're trying to
weigh against each other like

486
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,120
which one is more and and you
always do the greater good in

487
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,160
those situations now.
That that's good.

488
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,120
So that that's objection #1
objection #2 well, evolution

489
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:06,000
gives us the these moral
instincts.

490
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,840
They evolution explains how we
come to believe in morality, but

491
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,280
not whether those things are
true.

492
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,280
It's just that's how we got
here.

493
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,480
Right.
Like even if it could do that,

494
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,040
like we said before that it
can't.

495
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,320
But even if it could, it
wouldn't explain the fact that

496
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,120
they maybe we learn from our
genetics.

497
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:25,480
OK, that doesn't make it
actually true.

498
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,680
So it would only explain how we
we come to learn it, but it

499
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,000
wouldn't give us justification
for its ontology.

500
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,240
So that in philosophy we would
say that's the difference

501
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,920
between knowing and being or
epistemology and ontology.

502
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,960
That, that, that's good because,
yeah, I think you're right that

503
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,560
people will, or you might hear,
hear that that's like, oh, still

504
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,920
it's kind of arbitrary.
It just, we just evolved this

505
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,920
way.
Objection #3 Widespread moral

506
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,720
disagreement disproves
objectivity.

507
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,840
Yeah.
So lots of people disagree.

508
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,640
Disagree on science.
Yeah.

509
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,640
And that didn't make, you know,
there is still an objective

510
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,920
truth there.
So just because some people

511
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,480
might disagree about what's good
or bad doesn't mean that there

512
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,360
isn't ultimately a good or bad.
Just means maybe some things are

513
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,280
less easy to know.
Yeah.

514
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,360
Yeah.
And might even, I think we've

515
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,080
said this for some of the other
ones that might even kind of

516
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,360
like prove the point because why
is there so much disagreement?

517
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,000
Like you're trying to tease out
some of this like it's such a

518
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,400
big deal.
If it was truly arbitrary, maybe

519
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,120
it wouldn't be such such such a
big point.

520
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,720
And then and then.
But to even cut against that

521
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,360
objection even more, when you
survey people, there actually is

522
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,680
not a widespread disagreement.
Yeah, yeah.

523
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,040
We're like over minutiae kind of
that that's true, yeah.

524
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,360
Yeah.
So almost all societies prohibit

525
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:50,480
unjustified murder.
Almost all societies have some

526
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,880
condemnation of stealing and
dishonesty.

527
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,760
There may be some like, you
know, I, you can think of some

528
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,400
tribes where you know, it's part
of their honor to go and steal

529
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,440
something, but that's part of,
you know, that that is built

530
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,800
into their value system.
You, we value courage and

531
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,840
bravery and justice, protecting
your family, honoring elders.

532
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,680
Like, so like there's one
example.

533
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,400
There is this group of people
who once their parents started

534
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,680
getting older, they would kill
them.

535
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,000
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they're like, what is?

536
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,320
Going on like this is like these
people do not, are not immoral

537
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,760
people.
Well, the thing behind that was

538
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,560
that they thought that you
entered the afterlife with your.

539
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,560
Capabilities.
You had now, so before they.

540
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,400
Become so before they become.
Invalid and stuff.

541
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,960
We want to honor you by killing
you so you can enjoy the

542
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,600
afterlife with all your
attributes.

543
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,920
So you're not like, you know,
Yeah.

544
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,560
So you hear something.
'S like wrong, maybe even

545
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,320
underneath that most most things
yeah, I I think that's good and

546
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,960
most people, you know, there are
people who are crazy, but most

547
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,400
societies recognize the crazies
like, oh, this is like other or

548
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:00,680
out there.
This is not norm.

549
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,640
Yep.
OK, so that is the moral

550
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,400
argument premise one.
If God doesn't exist, objective

551
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,400
moral values and duties do not
exist.

552
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,960
But we're gonna say objective
moral values and duties do

553
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,320
exist.
And if those premises are true,

554
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,880
which I think they are, then it
shows that that God is, that God

555
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,640
exists.
And I mentioned this earlier,

556
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,720
this is a form of a
transcendental argument.

557
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:30,080
And basically it's saying there
is something that exists that

558
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:36,680
transcends just this natural
physical world, and it needs an

559
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,960
explanation outside of just
these molecules in motion.

560
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,120
Yeah, I like.
That a lot too because I I like

561
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,560
this because I think it's simple
and like you're saying it kind

562
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,200
of resonates on a level where
it's not just like thinking

563
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,040
about where did the world come
from this earth, but it's like

564
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,520
that you just experience this
everyday you can see things that

565
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,920
are right and see things that
are wrong or things that rub you

566
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,440
the wrong way or things that are
beautiful and really good I

567
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,720
think most people just feel that
or experience that so here's.

568
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,880
Some other arguments, so we
could do that.

569
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,880
We could do the same exact
argument and replace moral

570
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,360
obligations, more about moral
values and obligations.

571
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,840
Or sometimes where it is duties,
you could replace that with

572
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,840
reason and knowledge.
Because if we don't, if God

573
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,960
doesn't exist, there's no reason
that we should trust our

574
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,240
cognitive faculties to yield.
Yeah, if it's just evolution.

575
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,400
Or whatever it could be any.
We're just trying to survive.

576
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,880
Not saying that you're right or
wrong.

577
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,880
Yeah, exactly.
So, Alvin.

578
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,640
Plantinga very famous
philosopher, if you're in

579
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,840
philosophy, especially
philosophy and religion, you

580
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,200
know who he is actually
developed a full orbed.

581
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,560
It's in the the the low notes.
But we won't, we won't go a full

582
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,880
orbed argument against evolution
on naturalism 'cause he's saying

583
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,440
that there's no way we could
know evolution is true, or we

584
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,360
should trust that we know
evolution is true if naturalism

585
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:14,040
is the case, because evolution
does not on on the theory, it

586
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,000
does not select for truth
knowing truth.

587
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah it.
Selects for.

588
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Being able to get your genes
into the next generation, yeah.

589
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,800
And that's.
Oh yeah, you're right every

590
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,360
time.
True.

591
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,320
It doesn't matter what true
says, right or wrong, we're just

592
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,120
going to keep propagating or
whatever.

593
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,520
So the most that we could.
Know is what we believe right

594
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,760
now helps serve getting our
genes in the next generation.

595
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,400
Yeah, there you go.
And and it would be.

596
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,160
Deterministic, you know, because
we wouldn't have we wouldn't

597
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,560
have knowledge you just trying
to that.

598
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,840
That's good.
You can also apply this as an

599
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,560
argument from consciousness,
that consciousness cannot arise

600
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,120
from a purely physical process.
Our conscious experiences,

601
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,880
intentionality and subjective
awareness point to a personal

602
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,240
immaterial source.
And that's God and, you know,

603
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,960
materialism.
They, they struggle to account

604
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,440
for first person.
I feel like this whole concept

605
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,160
of consciousness is like just a
this is, this is like the

606
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,040
question people are like
grappling with like, oh, what,

607
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,840
you know, what is truly
conscious?

608
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,320
What is not?
Yeah.

609
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,440
And I.
You know, I'd go back to Greg

610
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,120
Hochul 'cause I listen to him a
lot, surprisingly.

611
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,600
Go back to him?
Yeah, I haven't heard his.

612
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,960
Name but.
He's talked with people and

613
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,280
basically has had questions
where someone was like, you

614
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,880
know, have you ever come into
contact with something non

615
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,880
physical?
He's like, you do it all the

616
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,040
time, all every time you're
awake and you're thinking to

617
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,840
yourself, you're you are
yourself is non physical.

618
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,520
And and like, you know, there's
there's no law of nature that

619
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,120
accounts for me raising my hand
or for this mass to be lifted

620
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,720
above and suspended above the
mass of the earth.

621
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,600
What has happened is an agent,
me, Michael, has decided I'm

622
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,720
going to pick it up and hold it
up.

623
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,200
And there is a non physical self
that's deciding to do that,

624
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,360
who's interacting with the
physical world in a way.

625
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,880
Yeah.
And this is like.

626
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,200
An everyday thing phenomenon,
yeah.

627
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,560
And no matter what, you're used
to it.

628
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:11,680
We.
Don't marvel it over.

629
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,160
You know, people get all hung up
over the resurrection because it

630
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,240
breaks the laws of nature.
This breaks the laws of nature.

631
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,560
This.
This should not be here.

632
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,560
Yeah, yeah.
But it is.

633
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,320
Because I'm, you know, obviously
there is a biochemical, you

634
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,800
know, thing about my muscles
tightening and the fibers.

635
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,320
And so we can't explain it like
this, but why is this cup

636
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,880
hovering like this?
Why did my hand grab it like

637
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,560
this?
There's no law of nature that

638
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,080
can explain that.
Yeah, it's great.

639
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,120
And if things.
Were, you know, purely physical,

640
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,280
then you would just expect like
like we're talking about kind of

641
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,560
before everything's just keep
the genes going.

642
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,680
Like there's no, we're not like,
oh, let's do this or this.

643
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,240
It's kind of like, hey, we're
just doing the next right thing.

644
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,560
All right, not to Daniel
Dennett.

645
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,920
I think he's passed away, but he
was the philosopher that spent

646
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,880
his career trying to say that
consciousness was an illusion,

647
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,520
that it didn't really exist,
that we were being fooled.

648
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,360
Who's being fooled?
If consciousness is an illusion,

649
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,120
who is the one who's being
fooled into thinking it's an

650
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,240
it's really there?
It's a good question, all right.

651
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,800
Argument.
From beauty, this one is a

652
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,000
little bit more abstract, but if
there is such a thing as beauty,

653
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,160
objective beauty, if something,
if we can go, this thing is

654
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,880
beautiful, yeah.
It is.

655
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,640
Aesthetically pleasing.
You ever seen like a crazy

656
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,800
sunrise or sunset?
We get a lot of good sunsets

657
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,360
here in Low Country.
Maybe.

658
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,520
The Northern Lights.
There you go.

659
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:49,920
Yeah, I, I think those are
overwhelming.

660
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,120
Like when I was reading this, at
first I was like, man, like

661
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,800
Richard Hartnett pulls out one
of these poems.

662
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,480
I might be like spine.
He'll be like, it's beautiful

663
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:00,840
or, you know, like you see some
of those things.

664
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,760
But I think like things like
sunsets are more 100% all in

665
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,120
things like the Mona Lisa might
be more people are in different.

666
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,320
There are taste and some people
might find some things more

667
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,080
beautiful than others, but it's
scientifically proven like you

668
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,760
can have people, you know,
objectify the human face like

669
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,520
this is a beautiful like rate
this face on one to 10 on how

670
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,520
beautiful handsome you think it
is.

671
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,040
And guess what?
We there are certain G Yeah,

672
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,000
yeah, yeah.
Of symmetry.

673
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,840
And proportion that we find
beautiful and that aligns to,

674
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,280
you know, mathematical laws that
you know you're you're going to

675
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,840
find that face more attractive.
Yeah, no that.

676
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,480
That's interesting where there's
probably overall norms and then

677
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,600
there's just like, if anything
else, outliers where I'm sure

678
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,680
there's someone who's like, I
hate sunsets or something, you

679
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,080
know what I mean?
Like, I don't know that person,

680
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,240
but I'm sure there's someone out
there who's like that, you know

681
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240
#4.
Argument from logic there's a.

682
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,480
Famous.
Debate between I think it's

683
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,880
Bonson now you're.
Talking presuppers language I

684
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,760
want to talk more about Bonson.
You know the.

685
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:17,199
The thing is presuppers, they
use this argument and how they

686
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,679
use it.
They use it in a classical

687
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,480
apologetic way because when
they're just talking, they talk

688
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,280
about epistemology like, oh, you
know that God exists.

689
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,400
But when they actually, when you
look at Bonson's actual debates,

690
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,880
he reverts to arguing like a
classical apologist man.

691
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,320
But yeah.
Yeah, yeah, this is great.

692
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:43,960
But there is this.
I think his name is Steiner.

693
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,159
I should have looked this up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

694
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,520
Is it Steiner?
He's debating this guy named

695
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,960
Steiner Bonson.
And Steiner Zach will Fact Check

696
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,560
me while I'm telling the story.
But man, I wish we had debates

697
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,720
like this, even like between a
Calvinist and an Armenian

698
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,680
because they would have their
normal, what you would expect in

699
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,680
a debate.
Like I talk a little bit, you

700
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,120
talk a little bit.
I rebut when you said, you rebut

701
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,320
when I said, but then they go
into a question answer and you

702
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,920
have to answer, ask yes or no
questions.

703
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,880
So you, I would ask you a series
of yes or no questions.

704
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,800
You would say yes, no, yes, no.
And he basically gets Steiner to

705
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,240
say, is it Steiner?
So there.

706
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:23,040
Is one I'm trying to think what
this there is.

707
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:29,120
Well, it might be that Chachi PT
is saying there isn't a wide

708
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,400
line of debate between Greg
Bonson and Rudolf Steiner.

709
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,480
But maybe there is a or a Robert
Steiner.

710
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,080
There is one he had with Gordon
Stein.

711
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,640
Maybe it's.
Gordon Stein, I think that is it

712
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,440
now.
Gordon Stein what what?

713
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,040
What we'll do for sure is I'll
find it and I'll put it in the

714
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,000
notes of Yeah, it's saying, he
argued.

715
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,720
That laws of logic, morality and
science presuppose, Yes, this.

716
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:52,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's it.

717
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,400
And so during this back and
forth question, they he it's a

718
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,800
beautiful thing where just hate
it the timing.

719
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,160
Of it, it's like and Stein.
Basically he gets them to admit

720
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,160
that the laws of logic are
outside, you know, they're not

721
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,280
physical and and therefore they
would presuppose something non

722
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,120
physical as their origin.
So it's great.

723
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,600
This is great thinking.
Of man, I want I want I'm gonna

724
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,560
listen a little bit more to I'd
like to understand Bahnson

725
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,200
better because he's like the
father of a lot of this, like

726
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,960
theonomy, like reconstructionist
too, like they all, you know,

727
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,280
they're like, you know, it's
just there's like these 5 or 6

728
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,320
guys that are side and I just
don't when I read to about bonds

729
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,080
and I'm like, man, I like a lot
of what he's saying.

730
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,280
But then it's like some of it
just doesn't compute or some of

731
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,480
the conclude.
I'm like, what are we doing

732
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,760
here?
But he's, he's the guy I need

733
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,720
to, I need to, I mean, his son
does a lot of he like takes a

734
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:49,600
lot of print.
He's like in a in the business

735
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,480
world or something.
And he, this is totally random,

736
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,880
but he does a lot of like
Bonson's like pre sub stuff and

737
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,560
he tries to apply it kind of
like theonomy like to your, I

738
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:58,960
don't know, it's kind of
interesting.

739
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,640
But anyway, I need to go check
out some more, more Bonson and

740
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,760
Van Till and that kind of thing,
'cause I just don't get

741
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,640
everything.
A lot of their stuff sounds

742
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:07,680
good, but I don't get
everything.

743
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,120
Yeah, and there is.
Another debate that you can find

744
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,560
between Bonson and Sproul where
they're specifically debating

745
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,640
and there's not video, but
there's audio.

746
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,640
And the audio is not best, but
if you, if you're patient and

747
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,560
listen to it, you can hear, you
can hear that debate as well.

748
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,280
We'll we'll link both of those
in there for funsies.

749
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,600
All right, so.
I think that's a good recap of

750
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,280
the moral argument.
Moral argument is in the family

751
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,680
of transcendental arguments and
really anything we named

752
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:43,080
consciousness, we named beauty,
The laws of logic reason more

753
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,960
obligations.
If those things exist, they have

754
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,400
to have a grounding for their
existence since they are non

755
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:56,520
physical outside of the physical
world and and so if you believe

756
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,520
those exist, then you have to
you've got to pick.

757
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,400
Your corner and people don't
like the corner.

758
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,040
People don't want to like face
the music of of the atheists,

759
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,840
but they don't want to come over
to Christian.

760
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,760
Sometimes it's like, well,
logically you, you can't just

761
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,480
stick in the middle.
Yeah.

762
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,360
There's a book written by man.
I can't think of anyone's name

763
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,240
tonight, but it's talk about
stealing from God and it's this

764
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:23,920
actual idea.
Like, you know, these people who

765
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,280
want to live in an atheist world
but borrow stuff from the

766
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,120
deistic.
World.

767
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,320
That's right.
Yeah, Steal it.

768
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,040
I love it.
Add it to the philosophy

769
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,280
collection.
We're building a nice little.

770
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,280
I like it too.
And it's like it's it's robust.

771
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,560
It's like not just these
arguments.

772
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,200
We've also talked about other
things in philosophy.

773
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,280
Maybe not, I can't remember, but
I feel like we've got a good,

774
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,640
good thing.
So anyway, what?

775
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,280
What's our next philosophy
podcast?

776
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:47,840
You got anything?
We should probably go back.

777
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,560
And pick up the theological
argument.

778
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:50,320
Oh yeah, that's right.
Yeah.

779
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,040
That's good and.
Then, you know, I want to touch

780
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,160
on the ontological argument.
It's probably the most

781
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,200
misunderstood.
That's great, but you know, you

782
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,520
know, you get a lot of atheists
saying like, well, I want a

783
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,040
maximally great pizza,
therefore, boom, it exists.

784
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,440
You know, yeah, that's not how
the there's, there's a key

785
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,640
feature there that they're
missing.

786
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,400
Always confuse.
Me, yeah, I love it.

787
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,520
Existence, fun stuff.
Well, thanks for hanging in

788
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,000
there.
That is our take.

789
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:22,880
Thanks for listening to Take
two.

790
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,520
Find us wherever you find
podcast and on YouTube for those

791
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:27,920
who want to watch our video
cast.