The Trinity

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Michael, you seem like a pretty
easygoing guy.

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I think I am most of the time,
but I.

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Can see right through that
exterior into the inner Michael

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Mattha gets frustrated from time
to time.

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I was thinking maybe we could
talk, talk some pet peeves.

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What really gets you going?
What kind of things are you just

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like, man, why?
Why do people do that?

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Well, you know, not that we
discussed this, but now that you

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mention it.
OK, yeah.

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One of my biggest pet peeves is
you are in traffic, you've got a

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red light and oncoming traffic
has that protected left turn.

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You know where I'm going.
Oh, I surely do.

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And they just keep going.
They just keep going.

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Or they go and they stop right
in front of you like they can't

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complete their turn.
And I have been known, probably

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in my more or less sanctified
times, to just take off as fast

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as I can and then narrowly miss
them or slow down.

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And Jill always like, you know,
I'm like, I want them to

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realize.
It's never learn.

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How are they going to learn if
if they get positive results

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from this they don't have any
negative feedback?

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Like if their life flashes
before their eyes for just a

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second, maybe that'll help them.
You're welcome.

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Person who's life black before
their eyes.

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Michael's doing you a huge
favor.

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Also on the traffic train,
generally people are bad in

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traffic anyway when it comes to
a there's like a double

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roundabout in Cane Bay that just
throws everyone off when I'm

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going from 5:26 to 26.
The merge merging areas.

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People don't know how to merge.
Like you're a zipper merger,

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right?
Only way to live your life and

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it and it's like, I think people
think you're being selfish.

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We are.
No, I'm actually obeying.

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I'm actually like going with
traffic flow and it makes

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everyone's life easier.
But if you're going from 5:26 to

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26 in that lane that backs up,
that is not zipper emerging.

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Like zipper emerging is when 2
lanes become one.

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But when you have one lane
that's just going off and you

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want to drive up to the very end
and then cut into that one lane,

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it's not 2 lanes merging that is
zipper emerging.

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Then that's wrong.
Like you should just go get in

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that right hand lane so that
left hand lane stays open

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because we're not merging, we're
not merging.

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And so that also, that's another
pet peeve of mine because

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because there's a difference,
there's a difference.

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Traffic.
That's a good one.

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What else just gets you gets you
going?

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I try to use and no one's going
to be perfect.

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So if if you, but I I appreciate
it when I get called out like

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oh.
Good, we'll be sure everyone

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take note.
He appreciates being called out

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for this.
Can't wait, Doctor Richard

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Hartnett, one of our musicians,
calls me out 'cause I think I,

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so I, I like to pronounce words
correctly and use the correct

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definition and use a correct
grammar.

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Yeah, I, I try to do that.
So I think I said like, this

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song needs to be more
contemplative.

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And he was like, you mean
contemplative?

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And there is this guy.
What's the there's a a guy's

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name that I can't think of from
old times.

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Maybe I will will think of it.
But also like definitions.

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So like a lot of people misuse
words.

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Well, like the common one, like
literally for when they mean

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figuratively.
But I guess that's becoming a

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confronym.
That's a thing.

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And if you go, I took a deep
dive in the Sunday school thing

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I did about it and apparently,
like, Emily Dickinson used it

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that way.
And I mean, the people are like,

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so it's been around for a long
time and you know.

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That makes it right.
And and that's what I'll, I'll

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tell you the pushback I get
after I say this, but like the

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word nauseous, a lot of people
use it like, man, I was so

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nauseous and I'm like, well, you
weren't nauseous until you threw

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up on yourself.
Then you became nauseous to

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other people because nauseous,
that's an adjective for

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something that makes you become
nauseated.

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So you were nauseated, not
nauseous.

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And I was pointing this out.
And then our English teacher

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extraordinaire, Mr. White, was
like, you know, definitions,

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they change over time with
usage.

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And so, you know, we update our
our dictionaries to reflect

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current usage.
So nauseous is starting to

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become that thing.
I'm like, yeah, but it wasn't.

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That, but it was.
So.

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It's great.
So if I'm like, just about to

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die, you're going to take time
to correct me while I feel

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terrible.
I appreciate it, Michael.

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I'll tell you the pet peeved,
end all pet peeves.

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This is this is the one that
this will get me.

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And and there's the right way to
do it there.

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If you do this in all sincerity,
it's fine.

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But you know, when someone maybe
drinks a Coke or something and

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then goes afterwards, I'm just
like, got to keep that in check.

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You know you hate that.
I, I, I really don't hate it,

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but I give people a hard time.
I'll be sure to be like, what

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are we doing here?
You know, seems.

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Like there was some kid that was
doing that.

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Was it one of our kids?
Yeah, I'm calling you out

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specifically the no, I'm just
kidding.

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But you know, I'm, I'm, I'm mind
if a kid does it, but I'm just

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like, what are what are we doing
here?

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You know, that's one also a pet
peeve of mine when people try to

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put an analogy on the Trinity.
I'm like, come on.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you like that?

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Yeah.
Yeah, I I like that.

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I like that.
That's, that's where we're

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headed.
I'm still trying to remember

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this guy's name that I
misremembered.

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It's the guy Antiochus,
Antiochus Epiphanes.

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And he's like, it's Antiochus
Epiphanes, not Antiochus

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Epiphanes.
But I grew up hearing Antiochus,

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but and Richard was like, no,
it's Antiochus.

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Yeah, there you go.
So you can always.

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Yeah, I feel like all of these,
like old names can go.

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Yeah, Augustine.
Augustine.

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Yeah, Who knows?
All right, who knows?

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But we do know about the Trinity
as much a little bit, a little

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bit.
That's right.

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I may not know everything, but
we we do know about Trinity.

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So stay buckled up and we'll
take it to the next level.

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
You know what I love about the

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Trinity, Michael?
It's easy to understand.

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So easy to understand and there
are so many verses that spell it

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out explicitly and use the word.
Yeah, yeah, You just go, you

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know, like go to your
concordance, find all the places

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where it uses Trinity, turn to
those verses.

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It's easy.
It's a easy day.

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So what what I mean, everyone
makes such a big deal about the

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Trinity.
You know, to be Orthodox you can

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believe the Trinity, but we
don't find this word in

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Scripture.
So how, how can it be such a big

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deal?
How can we be certain in the way

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we define it?
Well, I think there are some

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questions that that we have and
you know, if we were to skip

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down a little bit, we would read
that the early church, they kind

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of struggled a little bit with
this Judaism, clearly a

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monotheistic, you know, religion
and lots of you know, hear O

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Israel, the Lord your God is 1
and you should have no other God

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before me.
You know, those types of things.

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And but there were hints maybe
depending on if you're Heiser or

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not 'cause they use this plural
version of the word L Elohim.

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And you know, let us let us make
man in sorry in our image.

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Sorry I got.
He got this as a pet peeve in

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the name, so we got it done,
yeah.

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So, so there were hints at this,
but it wasn't explicit till you

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really get to the New Testament.
Now they're that you've got

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these verses, they're trying to
work out.

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How does this all work out
together?

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Now that that that's really good
because, you know, the Trinity

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is a foundational, essential
aspect of Christianity.

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We would do well to, you know,
be a little bit more familiar

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with early church creeds and and
that kind of thing.

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So maybe on the outset we can
give basic definition should

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then then work towards it like
what?

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What are we trying to keep in
mind?

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What verbiage should we use?
Because I think sometimes simple

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is better.
You try to uncover all of the

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mystery and all of life you
might.

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The more it's like the more you
talk, the more you can run into

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trouble.
Yeah, so you have one hell

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family.
And how many members are in that

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family?
Oh.

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And so we got 6.
Six, so one family, six members.

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So I'm not saying that's
analogous but to the Trinity,

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but it can help you see how
there could be.

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If there's different categories,
we count them differently.

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We're counting families versus
members.

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So the category that we count
for being, there's only one

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being or one what some people
would say.

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Some people find that offensive,
like, you know, that's like

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what, 11 being God, but there's
three who's there?

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Three persons there.
So we're not, they're different

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categories, so they can have
different numbers.

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But that's hard for us to
comprehend because most of the

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time it's one to one for us.
You know, there's one human, one

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person there.
That's that's my normal

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experience. 11 dog 1, you know,
you know, intelligence there or

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lack of intelligence there.
Yeah, yeah.

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So that's what makes it
difficult.

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Yeah.
And it's like some of these

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terms, philosophy, Greek words,
all of that gets confusing

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because I my understanding is, I
mean, at some level persons is

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kind of an analogy for us to
understand in a way to that we

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don't totally.
If you look at some of the East

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versus the West, like you go way
back, it's like they're arguing

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over the definition of persons.
You look at these, you know,

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like Carl Bart and these, you
know, people come from Germany.

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They're like, well, persons is
to find this.

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It's very, a lot of it's tied up
in the semantics of what's a

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person and where, how that's
evolved.

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And some of that gets confusing
to me when I'm like trying to

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look into that a little bit.
Yeah, I think you could argue

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over how we define a person, but
hopefully that we know what 1 is

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when we run into it, it's
probably that thing like, you

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know, I don't know how to define
it, but I know it when I see it

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type of thing and so.
Like if you because, like,

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because some of the computers
are like, oh, I do I when I run

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into an essence or a nature
versus a person versus a

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relationship or trying to nail
this down because I was trying

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to read some of this stuff and
it's like, it's really

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fascinating to read.
Like if you look at the Eastern

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church, they're like wow, you
you guys totally missed the boat

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because you basic you you're
basically modalist, which you or

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it's you look at these verse
West and it's like they have all

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these criticisms of each other
and a lot of it revolves around

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what do you mean by person?
Agustin really just talked about

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relationships and not about
person.

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Aquinas I was reading was like,
I really prefer a different term

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a little bit, but I'll go with
persons or you know what I'm

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saying?
Like it's like some of the if.

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You want a deep dive into
Aquinas?

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I can cause of how Aquinas
thinks about it.

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He thinks it is all relation and
emanation.

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So he would say, you know how
you can think about yourself,

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and if you were a omnipotent
eternal being, that would be so

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strong it would create a second
person when you think about

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yourself.
And then when you realize that

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you're think, 'cause you can
think about yourself without

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realizing you're thinking about
yourself.

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And then when you real
basically, Thomas, come on here

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and correct me, 'cause this is
not an easy thing to to explain.

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But basically when you realize
that you are thinking about

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00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,040
yourself, like you have that
third level, then that is strong

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00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:46,760
enough to create.
So he would make the

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00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,560
distinctions all in those
relationships.

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And I think that's because for
someone who's gonna hold to

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divine simplicity as strong as
Aquinas and I do, you're like,

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well, it can't be the
differences, it can't be part.

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00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,640
So what distinguishes, and it's
only the only thing that

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distinguishes them are the
relationships they have to each

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00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,520
other so that, you know, the
Father is eternal, the Son is

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00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,000
eternally begotten, and the
Spirit is eternally spyrated or

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00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,120
produced.
What's the word that they use

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00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,000
emanates from them?
Yeah, overseeing Spyrates, I

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00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,360
think.
Yeah, that to me, at the end of

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00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:24,920
the day, it's like hanging on to
those words.

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00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,520
That's where the creeds are
really, really important.

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00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,840
So we've got here in our notes,
you know, we, we worship one God

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00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,240
in Trinity and the Trinity in
Unity.

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00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,120
And then it looks like you've
got a lot of creedal statements

243
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,160
here that help us understand.
This better opening of the

244
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,200
Athanasian Creed.
OK, great.

245
00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:44,160
I'm neither blending their
persons nor dividing their

246
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,520
essence.
For the person of the Father is

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00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,760
a distinct person, the person of
the Son is another, and that of

248
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,400
the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father,

249
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,840
Son, and Holy Spirit is 1.
Their glory equal, their majesty

250
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,840
Co eternal.
And it it goes on, that's the

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00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,920
opening paragraph.
There's probably 17,000

252
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:06,960
paragraphs.
It's.

253
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,680
A lot it goes on and on and on.
And so we, we try to understand

254
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:13,560
that.
Like to me that's helpful.

255
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,520
When you try to get into a
little more, try to, you know,

256
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,400
bring these analogies along for
the ride, you start running into

257
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,920
run into a little bit of
problems.

258
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:29,400
Yeah, and the problem is there's
really nothing analogous to God.

259
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,000
The only analogy I've heard that
somewhat fits the bill is by

260
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,120
Greg Coppol, the one and only
and, and he talks about a

261
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:45,200
three-dimensional Cartesian
plane like XYZ and how, you

262
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,000
know, if you're thinking about
X, it is fully subsumed in the Y

263
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,000
and the Z and the Y is fully
subsumed in the X and the Z and

264
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,840
the Z is fully assumed in the X
and the Y and they are identical

265
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,320
in nature.
So he's like, that's how, that's

266
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,480
the only analogy that I think
kind of works.

267
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:07,200
But even that you know it
probably fails some way.

268
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,840
This this is Augustine's analogy
way back when, where he's like,

269
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,520
so I, I was coming across this,
I thought it was interesting.

270
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,320
Still, I don't think it it fits
the bill, he explains.

271
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,080
The Trinity is like the mind and
the mind's ability to remember

272
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,200
versus understanding versus to
will are different aspects of

273
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,360
the So he he's kind of trying to
take it a different with things

274
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:28,760
kind of like proceed.
Sounds great.

275
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,440
And so that that that's
essentially, if you get down to

276
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,560
like the E 1st West, a lot of
people are like very critical of

277
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,840
Augustine and then, you know, on
that kind of thing.

278
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,040
But it is interesting.
Everyone's been trying to do

279
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,200
analogies and no one, no, no
one's, no one's nailed it.

280
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,240
So you probably, we should
probably go over some of these

281
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,040
analogies and kind of point out
why they're wrong.

282
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,440
The first kind of broad
category, you've heard me say

283
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,440
the word modalistic or modalism,
it just means it's the same

284
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,360
thing that's in a different
mode.

285
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,520
And so the problem with this is
there's really no distinction in

286
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,680
the person.
It's a, you know, it's God the

287
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,120
Father is God the Son is God the
spirit, just kind of different

288
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,480
aspects of it.
So 1 you might have heard is

289
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:17,840
water can be a liquid, a vapor
or a solid when it becomes ice.

290
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,480
And that's really the same
thing, just in in different

291
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,920
substances or different forms.
Second one that you might hear

292
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,200
is, well, I am a father, but I'm
also a son and I'm also a

293
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,680
husband.
I have different modes, but it's

294
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,120
all one person doing all of
those things I so that's where

295
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,560
it fells down because it fails
to keep the distinction between

296
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,000
the persons.
Yeah, no, that, that's really

297
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,080
good.
And I think we modalism man,

298
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,040
and, and, and I think a common
theme we're going to see is a

299
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,200
lot of these analogies, you can
kind of like keep modalism in

300
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,960
your mind 'cause you can like
pull that out for several

301
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,720
things, just like partialism.
You can just, you can just hit

302
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,640
this.
This was, you know, condemned,

303
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,720
condemned as heresy.
I can't remember the guy's name.

304
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,480
If it was Sibelian Sibelius, I
don't know.

305
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,080
Sibelianism I think sometimes is
equivalent to modalism by some

306
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,200
people.
Maybe it's a little different,

307
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,800
but what?
In a different vein, you can get

308
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,960
some of these Arianistic
analogies where Arianism is that

309
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,240
Christ, God the Son, is lesser
created, being maybe still

310
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,040
deity, but not on the same plane
as God the Father.

311
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,880
Right.
Like maybe a demigod or

312
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,720
something like that.
Yeah, the best of all creation.

313
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,560
So it's the not elevated over
human sizes, but it's still

314
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,320
missing, missing the boat and
Arianism.

315
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,960
You might see in some of these
some of these analogies too.

316
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,280
We've got one here where there's
sun light and heat where those

317
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,440
things are very related.
But there's a source, and things

318
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,120
proceed from that source in a
different.

319
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,640
Kind of way, yeah, the light is
created from the sun and the and

320
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,480
the essence of light is
different than the essence of

321
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,120
sun, which is different than the
essence of heat.

322
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,680
So they don't share the same
nature either, Yeah.

323
00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,880
That that's a problem.
And then and then we've got a

324
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,440
dot dot dot.
Was that just in case you think

325
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:02,280
of a different one?
Yeah.

326
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,000
Yeah, in case you hadn't had any
more.

327
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,599
And the the ellipse itself.
No, I'm just yeah.

328
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:13,359
And then so also partialism,
this is really where there's

329
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,680
parts like God could be divided
into three parts and three parts

330
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,640
combined to make a whole.
One of those one might be

331
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:26,319
Voltron, which is what the the
two Irish showbillies reference

332
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,120
in in the but you might have
heard of like a three leaf

333
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:30,360
Clover.
You know, there's three

334
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,520
different leaves.
They all come together to be one

335
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:38,160
or like the shell, the yolk, the
albumin, albumin albumin, the

336
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,760
egg white.
Yeah, all three parts come

337
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,160
together to equal 1 egg.
So all of those fail because it

338
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:53,920
has to be 1 thing that has the
same nature but is presented or

339
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,400
represented or indwelled
personified by three persons.

340
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:00,920
It's you know the the word
trying.

341
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,440
Trying to find the word to is
difficult.

342
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,080
Yeah.
And I and I think if you go

343
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,600
through different analogies,
most of your analogies are going

344
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,240
to fall in one of these three
categories.

345
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,880
Maybe not every single one, but
but these are the common ones

346
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,480
that that you can kind of call
out and and I've led to some

347
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,760
heretical views and you can you
can tie these right, right in

348
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,800
with with these analogies we we
use.

349
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:28,240
So we have unit Unitarianism
that one God, one person.

350
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,760
We see this this is yeah,
Oneness Pentecostal kind of

351
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,160
embrace this modalism of sorts
kind of thing.

352
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,040
Islam Scott, you know.
They're not Christian, but they

353
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:39,840
do.
They don't.

354
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,120
They believe that we're wrong.
And they would look at us and

355
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,200
they would say, oh, you guys are
polytheists is kind of what they

356
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,600
would.
Think, yeah, yeah, yeah.

357
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:52,200
So Unitarianism, Poly or try
tritheism depend on, you know,

358
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,640
exactly.
And really, LDS Mormons fall

359
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,080
into this.
They would claim different, but

360
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,720
it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, they
define it how they define it.

361
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,120
They are three different beings
who all share define divinity,

362
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,120
godhood.
And so I don't know how you get

363
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,040
around calling that polytheism.
You know, I have friends who are

364
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:17,960
Mormon and I love you, but your
your definitions are the same as

365
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,120
polytheism and.
Then we have Arianism, the

366
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:27,080
popular cult that you'll see
today, Jehovah's Witness, where

367
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,120
I've talked to Jehovah,
Jehovah's Witness, Job's

368
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,000
Witnesses are very prevalent in
the older adult community.

369
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,680
They do a really good job of
converting people either online

370
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,080
or whatever.
So run to people and they're in

371
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,280
all these online Bible says like
I just came across this.

372
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,040
It's so great on my patients and
I've like talked them through

373
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,640
what I feel like are very clear
claims to deity.

374
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,040
So.
You can have these kind of

375
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,200
conversations with your
patients.

376
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,640
Oh, it's not all of them, but a
lot of them.

377
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,760
It's one of my favorite things
about my job is that I see

378
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,960
people for like 3 hours a week
for like 120 days.

379
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,800
Like you, you get very
comfortable with people.

380
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,480
You know, you can ask and it's
hilarious.

381
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,800
There's a huge, there's like a
few 55 and older communities

382
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,120
where in this is different.
A little off topic, but got a

383
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,600
lot of people from like Long
Island and they they're they're

384
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,920
Jewish culturally and it's like
they'll have like the 10

385
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,400
commandments hanging up and you
ask them about it.

386
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,560
They're like 10 commandments.
I think I can name like four of

387
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,800
them.
It's just like the cultural

388
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,320
Jewish.
It's not like they went to

389
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,400
Jewish school and all this, all
this stuff, but man, things that

390
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,080
I would think.
With Jehovah's Witnesses that

391
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,280
are clear attestation of
Christ's divinity, there's like

392
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,440
all these talking points around
that they they are not

393
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,680
convincing.
But I, I'm trying to think of

394
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,160
the one that was put toward me
recently, but it's it's almost

395
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,840
like ridiculous that, Oh no,
Jesus was just saying this

396
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,680
because I don't know.
It's like very, very straight

397
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,520
you.
Tried Jesus the Divinity for

398
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,800
Christ's.
Case closed.

399
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,920
I get that title from.
Cocol.

400
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,120
But it's 1st chapter John, not
the first verse but like the

401
00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:58,360
third verse.
I'll keep going down.

402
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,480
Where it says he created all
things that came into being and

403
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,720
nothing came into being apart
from.

404
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,920
Him.
And so then you're like, OK, if

405
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,520
nothing came into being apart
from him, he created all things

406
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,320
that came into being, then
Christ has to be something that

407
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,640
didn't come into being.
And if you don't come into

408
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,480
being, we call that God if
you've always existed.

409
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,760
So yeah, that's maybe that's a
tack you can take with them.

410
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,120
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll try it.
Win them over.

411
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,280
Win them over.
Yeah.

412
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,520
It's it's crazy.
The it's just like, man, boom.

413
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,280
They've been indoctrinated so
much.

414
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,040
So you know what?
What's the big deal?

415
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,440
What?
Why do we believe in the

416
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,640
Trinity, Michael?
Well, the Trinity, like we were

417
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,520
saying alluding to at the
beginning, it you're not going

418
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,560
to find that word in the Bible,
but you're going to find a lot

419
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,120
of verses that present a
trinitarian view.

420
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,200
So we have some verses here that
first kind of I thought we'll

421
00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:00,080
just take this in in order.
So are they separate persons?

422
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,320
You know, is it clear that the
Father and the Son and the Holy

423
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,000
Spirit are persons and that and
that they're separate.

424
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,040
So we just have we don't have to
read all of these, but here's

425
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,440
some Matthew 316 through 17 kind
of a your common one that gets

426
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,520
brought up after being baptized.
Jesus came up immediately from

427
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,280
the water and behold, the
heavens were open and he Jesus

428
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,200
saw the Spirit of God descending
as a dove and lighting on him.

429
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,280
And behold, a voice came out of
the heavens said, this is my

430
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,960
beloved son, in whom well,
please.

431
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,040
So you see, Father, Son, Holy
Spirit, three different

432
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,760
manifestations of those
different doesn't really make

433
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,400
sense for those to be the same.
Yeah, three kind of different,

434
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:48,440
different things going on there.
John 1426 But the Helper, the

435
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,240
Holy Spirit, whom the Father
will send in my name, He will

436
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,960
teach you all things and bring
you to your remembrance.

437
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,760
All that I said to you.
This is Jesus talking.

438
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,960
He's talking about the Holy
Spirit being sent by the Father.

439
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,080
This is probably a different,
different podcast, but the whole

440
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,880
debate where the East is like,
hey, I don't like this Council

441
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,680
of Nicaea or this, you know,
Nicene crew that's been adapted

442
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,840
to include from the Father and
the Son that the Spirit

443
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,400
spyrates.
That's it's only the Father.

444
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,160
They would look at something
like this, Yeah, Later on in

445
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,800
that same thing, he's talking
about the helper again. 1526 of

446
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,920
John says, when the helper
comes, whom I will send to you,

447
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,960
so there you go East Church,
whom I will send to you from the

448
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,120
Father.
That is the spirit of truth who

449
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,080
proceeds from the Father.
He will testify about me so

450
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,600
similar but a whole chapter
later got got basically the same

451
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,920
pieces there.
Great if we keep moving along.

452
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,400
2nd Corinthians 13 Paul writes
the grace of the Lord Jesus

453
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Christ and the love of God and
the fellowship of the Holy

454
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,640
Spirit be with you all.
So these three separate persons

455
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,280
to be be with these people in
Corinth.

456
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,120
Matthew 2819 the everyday
Commission go therefore make

457
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,360
disciples of all nations
baptized him in the name of the

458
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:02,920
Father and the Son and the Holy
Spirit.

459
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,720
So talking about them out like
they're three different people.

460
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,640
Yeah, and and the beautiful
thing about this there, and

461
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,120
there's just verse after verse
after verse.

462
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,560
Matthew 2639 says he went a
little beyond him and fell on

463
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,920
his face and prayed.
This is Jesus praying, saying,

464
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,640
My Father, if it is possible,
let this cup pass from me yet.

465
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,560
Not as I will, but as you will.
Yeah.

466
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,800
And so it doesn't make sense to
pray to yourself, right?

467
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,800
Yeah.
So yeah, John 17 one Jesus spoke

468
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,360
these things and lifting up his
eyes to heaven, he said, Father,

469
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,880
the hour has come, glorify your
son, that your son may glorify

470
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,040
you.
So clearly different

471
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,360
relationships there.
And we see similar thing.

472
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,400
John 11.
So they removed the stone.

473
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,200
Then Jesus raised his eyes and
said, Father, I thank you that

474
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,000
you've heard me.
I knew that you always hear me.

475
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,320
But because of the people
sitting around, I said it so

476
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,360
that they may believe that you
sent me again.

477
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,720
Strange thing to be talking to
yourself.

478
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,600
Yeah, and there's probably more.
I got these pull these from a

479
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:08,760
quick search that had compiled
some so any any other examples

480
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,400
you have off hand?
No, I, I, I, I think that's

481
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,480
good.
And I think it just proves the

482
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,720
point that this is just, it's
pretty ubiquitous with.

483
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,000
So the New Testament authors did
not see a need to explicitly

484
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,480
define the Trinity because it
was assumed, you know what I

485
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:26,720
mean?
Like that that that should speak

486
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:27,920
for itself a little bit, right
All.

487
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,360
Right.
So then on the other side, if

488
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,360
they are different persons, are
we guaranteed that they are all

489
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:36,040
divine?
Maybe, you know, maybe the

490
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,880
Jehovah's Witness has have it.
So you could ask, is the Father

491
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,200
divine?
Is the Son divine?

492
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,520
Is the Holy Spirit divine?
I think, Father, most people who

493
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,920
are in the faith, they don't.
It's a weird if you were like,

494
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,640
Holy Spirit's the only one.
You don't see that?

495
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,960
Yeah.
Yeah.

496
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,240
So is the Father divine?
Well, of course He is.

497
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,080
John 627 Do not work for the
food which perishes, but for the

498
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,720
food which endures to eternal
life, which the Son of man will

499
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,800
give to you, for on him the
Father God has set His seal.

500
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,840
So just a very explicit verse
calling the Father as God.

501
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,200
First, Peter one says, according
to the foreknowledge of God the

502
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,800
Father, by the sanctifying work
of the Spirit, to obey Jesus

503
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,440
Christ and be sprinkled with his
blood.

504
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,720
May grace and peace be yours in
the fullest measure.

505
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,320
Talking about, you know, God the
Father's had this this full

506
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,240
foreknowledge know knows
everything in advance.

507
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,960
Yep, then we have one from the
Old Testament, Isaiah 6316 For

508
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,800
You are our Father through
though Abraham does not know us,

509
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,600
and Israel does not recognize
us.

510
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:44,360
You, O Lord, so it says Lord,
but this is the the name of God

511
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:49,000
that Moses gave him.
So you, O you, O Yahweh, are our

512
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Father, our Redeemer from old is
your name.

513
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,520
So again, a very explicit
linkage between the Father and

514
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,160
Divinity.
Now that that's great, we will

515
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,400
move over to God the Son, God
the sons divine.

516
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,360
Probably the most common go to
and for good reason.

517
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,440
John 11 in the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with God,

518
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,360
and the Word was God.
Pretty, explicit, Pretty.

519
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:17,560
Clear, pretty clear.
And again, I got these from a

520
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,280
search, but I would add 1-3 go
down.

521
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,880
You know, he created all things.
Nothing came into being except

522
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,840
for through him.
Kind of like the climax of the

523
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,600
book of John Thomas after Jesus
says, all right, here I am

524
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,120
Thomas, put your hands in my,
put your finger in my hands and

525
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,320
put your hand on my side.
He said, Thomas answers and said

526
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,920
to him, my Lord and my God.
So at least the apostles thought

527
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,440
that he was God.
Colossians 29 For in him Jesus,

528
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,880
all the fullness of deity dwells
in bodily form.

529
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,040
So pretty pretty clear there.
Yeah, Titus 213 looking for the

530
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,080
blessed hope and the appearing
of the glory of our great God

531
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,240
and Savior Christ Jesus.
And then the rounded out Hebrews

532
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,840
one verse 8, but of the Son, he
says quoting a Psalm, which is

533
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:04,640
great.
If you're quoting the Old

534
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,440
Testament, you're bringing that
together that that's saying a

535
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,440
lot.
Your throne, O God, is forever

536
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,600
and ever.
And the righteous scepter is the

537
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,680
scepter of his Kingdom.
So over and over you see Jesus

538
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,320
as God, you see Jesus as Lord,
You see Jesus possessing these

539
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,960
divine attributes with his
miracles and omnipotence and

540
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,920
all, all, all of this stuff.
He accepted worship, so he

541
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,560
thought he was God.
That's right, all these I am

542
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,960
statements connecting him to to
Yahweh.

543
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,440
Those are those are pretty
strong.

544
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,800
So probably the toughest ones
coming up, huh, or what?

545
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,080
I don't think it's tough, but
you know, people, the forgotten

546
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,840
people, forget about the Holy
Spirit, I think.

547
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,840
Holy Spirit is the vine.
So we have Ananias and Sapphira.

548
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,800
They lie and Peter when they
lie, he says you've lied to the

549
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,760
Spirit.
And then earlier he, he equates

550
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,000
that to God.
So I'll just read this.

551
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,960
This is but Peter says Ananias.
Why has Satan filled your heart

552
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,800
to lie to the Holy Spirit and to
keep back some of the price of

553
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,520
the land while it remained
unsold?

554
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,640
Did it not remain your own?
And after it was sold, was it

555
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,920
not under your control?
Why is it that you have

556
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,640
conceived this deed in your
heart?

557
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,560
You have not lied to men, but to
God.

558
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,920
So earlier you lied to the Holy
Spirit.

559
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,400
You lied to God.
So he's making an equivocation

560
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,280
between those two.
Yeah, that that connection's

561
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,200
pretty, pretty undeniable.
I'm in First Corinthians 316,

562
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,520
Paul writes.
Do you not know that you're a

563
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,440
temple of God and that the
Spirit of God dwells in you?

564
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,640
I'm talking talking to
believers.

565
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,840
You have the Holy Spirit in you.
Temple of God.

566
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,360
Yep.
So these has to be divine for

567
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,360
that to be the case. 2nd
Corinthians 317 through 18.

568
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,680
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and
where the Spirit of the Lord is,

569
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,280
there is liberty.
But we all with unveiled face,

570
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,320
beholding as a mirror the glory
of the Lord are being

571
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,280
transformed into the same image
from glory to glory, just as

572
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,480
from the Lord the Spirit.
So pretty clear we're we're

573
00:29:54,120 --> 00:30:00,280
equating this Adonai which to
the spirit again, divine titles.

574
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,080
I like this one.
Hebrews 914.

575
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,480
How much more will the blood of
Christ, who through the eternal

576
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,960
spirits offered himself without
blemish to God, cleanse your

577
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,520
conscience from dead works to
serve the living God?

578
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,240
So the Spirit's eternal that
that speaks volumes.

579
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,520
Yeah, yeah.
That's kind of like case closed

580
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,360
there.
Psalm 139, seven through 8.

581
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,080
Where can I go from your spirit?
Oh, the Spirit is omnipresent.

582
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,520
Or where can I flee from your
presence?

583
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,280
If I ascended the heavens, you
are there.

584
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,600
If I make my bed and shield,
behold, you are there.

585
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,520
So again, you could read this if
you, you know, put with all the

586
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:34,920
other stuff.
OK, I think we can make the

587
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,760
connection that the Spirit's
omnipresent.

588
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,040
And if he's omnipresent, he's
divine.

589
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,280
No, I I like that.
I like that Psalm passage

590
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,080
because you, you can look up
God's Spirit in the Old

591
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,040
Testament and it's, it's not
nothing.

592
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,960
There are there's several verses
that speak to the Spirit in the

593
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,480
Old Testament.
All right, so like we kind of

594
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,120
talked about at the beginning,
it's clear, it's implied, but

595
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,960
it's kind of new with the New
Testament.

596
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,200
And so it took the church a
little bit of time to kind of

597
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,360
formalize this and work this
out.

598
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,360
And like, how do we want to talk
about it 'cause it's like, kind

599
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,240
of like we were talking about
how do we find a person?

600
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,240
Like we know what what it is,
but how do we talk about this in

601
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,520
a way that is true to what the
Bible says?

602
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,880
And like we said, the term
Trinity never used in the Bible

603
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,000
wasn't even using Christian
literature until the 2nd

604
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,560
century.
However, the concept was present

605
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,400
in early Christian thought and
the Bible itself.

606
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,320
Now that that is really, really
good.

607
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,400
The Council of Nicaea 325.
So you can kind of see the

608
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,880
centuries kind of going on a
little bit and and you don't

609
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,800
necessarily need to define
something until there's a

610
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,600
problem.
And then you start getting, you

611
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,760
know, Arianism, these these
things are starting to to pop up

612
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,040
and be be problems.
And so they need to be together

613
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,120
and and kind of fit figure this
out.

614
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,520
Like what what's going on that
that council of Nicey affirmed

615
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,120
that the son was of the same
substance as the father in the

616
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,160
face of Arianism.
Maybe we'll get a Christmas

617
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,600
episode about it later on this
year.

618
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,440
Which Arianism denied Christ
divinity.

619
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,080
Yeah.
And then a little later on 451,

620
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,200
the Council of Chalcedon further
clarified the relationship

621
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,880
between Christ's divine natures
and human natures, 'cause that

622
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,080
was a, you know, all right, who
is this person?

623
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,400
Jesus, you know, you know, And
so we have one person, two

624
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,640
different natures.
And so those two together really

625
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,160
help kind of shape our, you
know, kind of our foundation

626
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,880
that helped put words to what we
believe Athanasian Creed was.

627
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,960
I guess it was never adopted in
a council, but he wrote it and a

628
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,200
lot of people, you know, I think
quote it and stuff so.

629
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,040
Yeah, Athanasius, good.
Good for you.

630
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,400
It's probably worthwhile just to
go back, read over these, you

631
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,360
know, from time to time set up
these kind of rails to stay, to

632
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,000
stay inside of because it's not
it's it's something that

633
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,960
definitely matters.
And I think most people are just

634
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:01,960
ignorant.
I don't think people most the

635
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,360
time are like, I love modalism,
but it's just like kind of by by

636
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,440
the way, they are kind of
processing things.

637
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,680
So I think you've got a couple
of helpful, helpful ideas for us

638
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,520
from your boy Greg Cockel
himself.

639
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,720
That's right.
So Greg has two articles on and

640
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,320
the title is the Trinity a
solution, not a problem.

641
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,120
Cause a lot of people go, they
view the Trinity as like this

642
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,840
thing that we and, and it's
really not the problem.

643
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,840
You know, maybe our
understanding is the problem,

644
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,320
but kind of just a summary of
those articles of the first one.

645
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,080
He's really gonna talk about
how, you know, it's just not

646
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,720
this, the abstract theological
concept.

647
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,760
It's central to our Christian
faith.

648
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,920
It answers some of our most
challenging questions about

649
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,560
God's nature.
The Trinity shows us how God can

650
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,720
be love even before he's created
everything because there's love

651
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,480
between the Father, Son and the
Holy Spirit.

652
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,800
And it helps us understand the
sacrifice of Jesus on the cross

653
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,680
as an expression of God's love,
not cruelty.

654
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,200
And the Trinity explains how
Jesus's finite suffering for us

655
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,520
in time could pay for an
infinite, you know, amount of

656
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,239
human sins or the infinite
punishment of human sins.

657
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:18,159
Because God, as Jesus sacrifice
carries out sorry.

658
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,000
Because as God, Jesus's
sacrifice carries an infinite

659
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,440
value, so it can cover all those
sins.

660
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,400
Practically it it helps us out.
It's a major solution seeing

661
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080
those intrapersonal
relationships that I think about

662
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:37,239
that, that that is something
that's very important about

663
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,800
about our God.
And then you're right, if you

664
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,560
know Christ is not God, that's a
problem.

665
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,719
We are in a whole lot of other
trouble.

666
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,040
Yeah, he's got a second article.
Again, I have a like a paragraph

667
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,239
summary of it.
But really, if I were to hit the

668
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,400
highlights of it, it says it's
just not, it's not, it's not a

669
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,960
doctrine that we invented or a
theological puzzle, but it's a

670
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:03,440
revealed truth that's in the
word that underscores God's

671
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,720
love, the significance of the
cross, the basis of Christian

672
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,600
salvation or salvation.
So it's not a problem.

673
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,600
It's really a glorious solution
that unifies God's self

674
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,120
revelation to us.
I I love this question.

675
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,600
What pronouns do you use for the
Holy Spirit?

676
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,200
I guess in today's culture,
we're always, we're all about

677
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,160
pronouns.
Am I missing the boat?

678
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,840
It's a It's as simple as he is
that he has.

679
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,760
It is, yeah.
I, I some people have been like,

680
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,040
you know what?
A what?

681
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:31,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's not a what?

682
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,560
It's a he.
Yeah, I, I guess we're coming on

683
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,760
the this is coming kind of on
the heels few weeks back of

684
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,560
pneumatology where, you know,
Holy Spirit has personal

685
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,720
attributes, can be grieved.
It helps counsels these things

686
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:47,160
that would be strange for a
force to perform.

687
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and then Greg Kochl's first

688
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,240
article kind of addresses this,
but the Trinity can also be

689
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,640
practical solutions for some of
the tax we get from outside.

690
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,080
So you may or may not be
familiar with the so-called

691
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:09,040
divine or cosmic child abuse
argument, but basically the

692
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:14,000
argument is that God the Father
is sacrificing his innocent son

693
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,800
and men.
That's horrible.

694
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,960
Like if you were to say, all
right, Jordy, Oh no, you're

695
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:26,080
going to basically be tortured
to death, but it's OK 'cause by

696
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,640
you dying, it's going to save
all this world and be like,

697
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,640
that's what's going on.
That's so bad.

698
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,440
But this argument really falls
apart when you realize Jesus is

699
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,800
God.
So it's not like God is sending

700
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,880
God in itself.
God has provided himself a lamb.

701
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,360
If we were to quote what what
happens with Abraham?

702
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,440
And so Jesus being one of the
persons, God willing, he takes

703
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,600
on the cost of sin out of love
for humanity.

704
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,040
And he's not God's not
inflicting violence on some

705
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,520
third person.
It's really the Father's

706
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,760
inflicting violence on the Son,
but they're all part members of

707
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,600
the Trinity.
That's good that God can build

708
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,080
the just and justifier of our
faith.

709
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,160
I like this here too.
Because we have a trinitarian

710
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,960
God.
It influences how we worship, I

711
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,000
think.
I think that's good.

712
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,000
Pay attention to a song lyrics.
You know, you're praising God

713
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,160
the Father, God the Son, God the
Holy Spirit.

714
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,960
Sing about it today.
There you go.

715
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,880
It's it's good to think about
these things impacts your

716
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,440
prayer.
You know, I don't know, there's

717
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,280
I mean, I don't know if you're
in this debates, pray in Jesus

718
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:32,280
name, nothing else.
Like you.

719
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,920
I mean, it's, I mean, you know,
how do we pray?

720
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,040
You know, some people are pretty
strict on some of this stuff.

721
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,080
I don't know.
Well I think the pattern in most

722
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,760
prayers you see are to the
Father in Jesus name.

723
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:48,920
But I think there is maybe 1
lone prayer to the spirit or

724
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,080
something.
I'm just going off of what I've

725
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,080
heard the podcaster say.
I won't say which podcaster but

726
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,120
a podcaster out there.
But you know, all three are are

727
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,800
God.
But I think the pattern, the

728
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,080
normal pattern, is praying to
the Father.

729
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,000
You won't catch me praying to
the Holy Spirit, am I?

730
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:09,800
I'll look at that word to the
Son.

731
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,640
You see some you probably 90
percenter to the Father and then

732
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,880
you had 10% of the prayers to
the Son in the Bible.

733
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,120
Now that's that that I think
thinking about these things is,

734
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,840
is very important.
And when we look at, you know,

735
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,880
this intrapersonal relationship
that that God has, this

736
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,960
relational nature of God that
does serve as a model for love,

737
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,720
unity and diversity within the
church, that as a church we are

738
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,160
united.
But there's very diverse, very

739
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,840
diverse people across time,
across cultures.

740
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,560
And I think that is reflected.
You look at our world as a very

741
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,920
diverse world and that that is
reflected in our God.

742
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,960
And then finally, we've kind of
hinted at some of this, but, you

743
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,480
know, knowing the Trinity and
then knowing the roles that they

744
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,920
take in our salvation.
And if you look at Scripture,

745
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,640
it, you know, they they do
different things.

746
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:05,360
The Father draws us to himself,
compels us to himself, just like

747
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,600
Peter and Silas were compelled
into the prison.

748
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,840
Yeah, there you go.
The Son accomplishes our

749
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,560
salvation through his death and
resurrection.

750
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,280
The Spirit regenerates us to
bring about salvation, seals us,

751
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,480
gives us gifts for service,
sanctifies us as we live our

752
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,520
lives.
And so these different roles

753
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,400
that they play, it really helps
us understand, you know, more

754
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,000
about our salvation and helps us
have AI think a deeper

755
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,320
appreciation for what God's done
for us.

756
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,200
Yeah, I think that's good.
Each person of God, I think is

757
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,240
involved in every aspect.
But we definitely do see the

758
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:44,120
Father planning, the Son
executing, the Spirit applying,

759
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,960
and that's good that economic
Trinity, not to displace that

760
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,040
ontologic Trinity where they're
all Co eternal and all all God.

761
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,560
Good ways to to talk about these
things.

762
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,520
Some people you start talking
about the economic Trinity and

763
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:58,960
they get all bent out of shape
too.

764
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,200
That like you're, you know,
giving all a a whole different

765
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,760
thing and you're like, no, no,
everyone's everyone's guy Co.

766
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,880
Eternal.
Go read.

767
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,960
Go read some creeds to spend
your afternoon.

768
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,920
That's what you should do all.
Right.

769
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,240
Anything else to say?
I've got nothing else.

770
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,560
All right, that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

771
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,800
Two.
Find us wherever you find

772
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,280
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

773
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:23,960
video cast.