The True Story of Christmas Part 1

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All right, so I assume Leanne
listens to the podcast?

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Faithful listener.
And so, so does Jill.

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She recently listened to the one
where we picked up afterwards.

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And I guess I have to apologize
on air because what I did was I

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grabbed the year that we started
going to CBC so.

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So, so just so everyone knows,
you messed up the year you got

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married.
Want to make that abundantly

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clear?
Yes, that's, that is the case by

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one year and I just did math
quickly on that year.

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So it wasn't like I was, I was,
yeah.

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So we got married in 2001 and we
started going to CBC in 2002.

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I think that's the, those, the
years that we, I, I conflated

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'cause we visited churches for a
year.

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So it's actually, we've been, I
think married 11 years longer

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than you and, and instead of
exactly 10 years, but it's

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still, it's still on this 4th.
I got that right.

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That's pretty good.
I mean, I guess it's good when

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you're mixing up the years
because that means you've been

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married a long time.
That's good.

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It's it's badly compared like
three years.

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You know, guys, I've been 6.
But yeah, but you know, once you

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get in the double, you know,
you're, you're in a couple

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decades in, you know.
So I was I, I didn't get too

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hard of a time, but I, I was
given a little bit of a hard

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time for messing that up.
Right.

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But you know what?
We rectified it, right?

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You know.
Public on air apology.

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I mean, what more could you ask
for?

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You know what I'm saying?
What more?

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We'll see if it's satisfactory.
Jill, if he's missing anything,

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please report back so we can
make sure we get the get more

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apology next.
Time that's right, that's.

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Right, that's good, man.
So married in Arkansas I'm

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assuming, and then moved to
Charleston shortly thereafter.

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Yeah, we married her aunt and
uncle provided the head of

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timeshare that we got to pick.
So we we paid for

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transportation, but we got to
pick where we went.

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So we went to Cabo San Lucas for
that's seven days.

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I think it was exactly a week,
Jill.

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Is that right?
Seven days?

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8 days?
Did you apologize?

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Next week we were, we were, I
know we were two days in Little

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Rock and then we flew out there
and then we flew back, gathered

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up our stuff and it was like we
were here, we were alone.

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Like this is, you know, try to
imagine the time like we had

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never been here and I'd flown in
here with a recruiter, but like

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he drove, he drove me around.
So I didn't like, I didn't

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really have any of the lay land.
We just had those large Rand

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McNally atlases we were
following to get here.

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And it's like it was kind of a
little bit scary, you know that.

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Is wow, this is what I love.
I love that.

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I'm hoping you apologize and
then you add more to the store

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and I hope something was wrong
that Jill calls out so you have

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to apologize.
It's.

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Like a It's an apology that
keeps on giving.

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It's like a segment apology,
apology corner with Michael.

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Yeah, no, that'd.
Be good, man.

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But the maps, yeah, that that's
A and I'm sure everyone was way

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more proficient with it because
you had to be.

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But it's like, I don't know.
I don't know if that could do

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that.
Yeah, and we, we finally figured

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out how we got here 'cause we, I
think we took exit 2O3, I think

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we took College Park.
OK.

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And we were just talking the
other day, it'd be great like go

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back, you know, however long ago
that was and look at.

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So what would that be 20-3 years
and be able to like drive

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through to see the developments
since then in?

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Berkeley County, Man.
But I remember, no, no, no, no,

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no.
It would have been exit 199

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'cause we drove, 'cause it said
Goose Creek.

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So like, oh, this must be our
exit.

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So we took exit 199 and we made
it all the way down to 176 and

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we stopped at that gas station
and like, Oh yeah, just keep

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doing down this road.
You'll run right into the Navy

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base and so.
This is the middle of nowhere.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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Now Carnes Crossroads.
Right.

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Yeah.
So it was the middle.

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There was nothing there.
But then we were driving in

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like, oh, here's a Walmart
that's good.

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And so yeah, it, it was pretty
crazy.

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Wow man, well I'm glad we got
that taken care of 'cause we're

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after the truth.
We do want.

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We want accuracy and so that
dovetails nicely with with what

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we'll be talking about in a
little bit.

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So get excited for what we have
for you.

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We'll go ahead and take it to
the next level from the hearts

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of the low country in South
Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
Man, Michael, you know what I

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love about Christmas tradition.
I don't know, tell me.

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It's always true, no matter.
What?

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It's always true.
No matter.

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That's right.
That's right.

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That's right, yeah.
You know, there's so many things

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that's if you reflect on them or
you can you can learn more

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things about maybe tradition,
even if they're well meaning

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figure, Oh wow, this this
probably isn't accurate.

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Right, Yeah.
And there are a number of

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inaccuracies that have creeped
their way in through subtle

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mistranslations.
Not even not like outright

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mistranslations, but.
From, from really good, from

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really good translations
typically.

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But I, I and I, I think a lot
when I think of the ESP

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specifically.
I don't know if the NASB

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followed this trend when they
were translating.

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No Lockman was before Crossway,
but a lot of times it was to

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keep the full.
You kind of want to keep the

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flow you want to change from the
KJV, but some of that is OK to

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keep over because it's familiar.
And so I think that's part of it

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where, you know, some of these
translations have footnotes that

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are more accurate than the
actual text.

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Why don't you just switch that?
That's right.

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No, that's that's very good.
So what Zach and I thought we

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might do is to read through just
opening Loot 2 and then make

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some commentary on it as we go
through with some things that

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may have crept into Christendom
that aren't 100% accurate.

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So do you want to start off
reading Zach?

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Great.
Do do we want to read this whole

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section or go stop?
All right, stop by each verse.

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Yeah, we can just stop as we go,
I think.

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Great.
I'll read.

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I'll stop with verse one.
I'm reading out of the ESV.

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So, Michael?
I'll you'll throw a.

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Flag I'll.
Throw a flag when needed.

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Wait, in those days a decree
went out from Caesar Augustus

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that all the world should be
registered verse one.

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Any any any trouble here?
I think it's good so far.

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All right, this was the first
registration when Quirenius was

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governor of Syria.
I've got a footnote here.

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Oh, this was the registration
before.

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That's what my footnote says.
That's verse 2.

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Anything we want to add there?
I think, I think everyone's good

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so.
And all want to be registered,

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each to his own town.
And Joseph also went up from

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Galilee, from the town of
Nazareth to Judea, to the city

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of David, which is called
Bethlehem, because he was the

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House of the house and the
lineage of David to be

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registered with Mary his
betrothed, who was with child.

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While they were there, the time
came for her to give birth, and

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she gave birth to her first born
son and wrapped him in swaddling

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clothes and laid him in a
Manger, because there was no

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place for them in the end.
Oh.

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Yeah.
So we definitely have some stuff

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to talk about now.
So this is a familiar passage.

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People have read this a
bajillion times, most churches

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probably at least around this
time of year reading it.

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It's even on the, you know,
Peanuts Christmas, Charlie Brown

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Christmas.
I think Sinus recites this

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passage or at least part of it.
So you see David, not David,

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Joseph and Mary going back to
the city of David.

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And I wonder, you know, 'cause
Mary, her family would have

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traced through David too.
So I wonder if if there was, you

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know, we're not told explicitly.
I guess it's just the man of the

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household that's through his
lineage, right?

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Yeah, so, you know, kind of
going back to to where they're

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from.
I I was thinking too, well,

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maybe we can start here.
What's like what's like the pop

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evangelical go to understanding
of this, Like what paint us a

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picture?
What's going on in this text?

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Yeah.
So they're traveling and so you

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might, I don't know, you might
have passages that say they go

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up, but that would just mean
they're going up in elevation

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because they're actually
traveling South.

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So Nazareth is like up in the
northwestern ish part of, you

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know, it's kind of above the Sea
of Galilee.

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And so they would be traveling
down, they likely would have

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crossed over to the east side of
the Jordan to get around Samaria

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because you just didn't walk
through Samaria.

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And so then they would've been
walking there.

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And then right on, as they're on
the verge of reaching their

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destination, Bethlehem, Mary's
starting to go into labor.

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And there is this panic that is
ensuing.

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Are we going to find a, a safe
place for Mary to give labor?

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They go to all the hotels.
Motel 6, Motel 8, all of them

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Holiday Inn.
That are there in Bethlehem and

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there's they're just so packed
because of the census.

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They don't have any room, but
one person provides a barn for

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them to give birth in.
Yeah, so they're sleeping out

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there, sleeping out there in the
hay, and it's like all the

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animals are in the stable and
they just got some room there

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and they made it, had the baby
right there.

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Yeah, had the baby.
So that is likely the picture

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that most people have in their
mind of this Christmas scene.

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What, what's the CSB?
Does it say they went up from

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Galilee or it it makes it more
dynamic and says went down?

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I was just.
Curious, I'm just saying it may

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say that in other let me.
See ESV says went up because I

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because of the literal elevation
changed.

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This says Joseph also went up
from Galilee.

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Yeah, so I was.
Just wondering because that is

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confusing if you're looking at a
map and I think you're like oh

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this doesn't make sense but you
nailed it.

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But I was wondering if other
translations tried to smooth it

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out.
I don't know.

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Yeah, this and this is NASPI
don't have.

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Oh.
Sorry, you got the NSP?

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Yeah, Yeah, No, I, I think, I
think that's good.

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So there's a lot of places we
can start.

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Where, where do you want to
start, Michael?

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Well, I think one of the key
things and this one should give

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us some, some, some keys to
unlocking the rest of it is this

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phrase right here that says and
this I'll, I'll read it from the

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NSP.
This is verse 6.

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It says while they were there.
So while they were already

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there, the days were completed
for her to give birth.

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So she's not going into labor
while they're travelling or just

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getting there.
They were there for at least two

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days, plural.
But the sense of it was maybe

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longer than that.
So my guess is that's a good

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point.
You, you go up there, you

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register and you go.
You know what, we're with

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family, which we will talk
about.

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Mary's close to giving birth.
Let's not try the return journey

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until she gives birth.
Let's hang out here.

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Yeah, so you can imagine someone
who's pregnant but making the

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trip and yeah, they're pretty
pregnant, but it's not this

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frantic like waters broke, you
know, we're, we're trying to,

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trying to get, get everything
settled.

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And I think that's good because
it's always portrayed that it is

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like a mad, mad rush.
This is a book I, I grabbed

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'cause I, I, I don't know if I
agree with everything in here,

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but it's called Jesus Through
Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth

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00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,680
Bailey.
And he he makes some interesting

225
00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,840
points about this, which I think
will tie in to another point

226
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,720
we'll make about about the inn.
But Joseph, Joseph is returning

227
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,800
to his village of origin.
I just came back from

228
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,240
Thanksgiving in West Virginia.
I've got a lot of family there.

229
00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:13,800
I could.
And you know, they live in some

230
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,800
outskirts of Huntington, some
small towns.

231
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:17,880
I could find a cousin that I
have never met.

232
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,840
And I could say, hey, I'm, you
know, from the Smith family

233
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,920
here.
And they would probably take me

234
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,480
in if I needed it.
They would be like, sorry, we

235
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,720
got there's no place for you.
Not only that, he was from the

236
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,160
family of King David, like in
this royal line, King David very

237
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,680
famous in Bethlehem.
Presumably there'd be even more,

238
00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:39,600
you know, local people that are
in that family line.

239
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,080
On top of that, if you saw a
pregnant woman wondering about

240
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,400
and and her water broke, would
you be like, hey, I can help you

241
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,800
out with it?
Nope, We're full, especially in

242
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,200
a middle Middle Eastern culture
with presumably a lot of

243
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,600
extended family around.
That seems weird.

244
00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,920
And on top of that, you know, we
read in in Scripture that Mary

245
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,960
had relatives very close by,
Elizabeth Zachariah in the Hill

246
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,800
Country of Judea, probably
around 4:00 to 5:00 miles away,

247
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,320
which isn't right around the
corner, but you could get there.

248
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,720
If it was a pinch and it was an
emergency, you might do that.

249
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,680
And because of this very phrase
you mentioned, KJV says the days

250
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:21,080
were accomplished, that she
should be delivered because

251
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,480
there were were days there was
time to make arrangements.

252
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,240
It wasn't as mad panic.
And when you start thinking

253
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,600
about all these things, you're
like, wow, that is kind of

254
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,160
bizarre that we don't think that
way.

255
00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:32,880
Right.
And I want to hit on something

256
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,080
you mentioned the Middle Eastern
customs, because you can look

257
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,000
back all through the Old
Testament and there were times

258
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,560
when there were strangers that
were taken in because that was

259
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:44,480
the custom.
Because if you didn't do that

260
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,880
out on out in the desert, people
died.

261
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,200
So you think of like, you know,
the three visitors who visit

262
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,880
Abraham, like something may have
been going on, like he may have

263
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,000
recognized this, this is the
Angel of the Lord.

264
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,880
But he, you know, stops and
fixes something for them.

265
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,440
If anyone has read Lone Survivor
or watched that movie details

266
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,880
this one seal out of this team
who survived.

267
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,200
And part of it was he survived
because of this Middle Eastern

268
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,080
culture.
Now he's over in Afghanistan,

269
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,120
but it has broadened out to
there.

270
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,280
And this idea of, you know,
sharing the pot was like the the

271
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,800
Americanized version.
But these Pashtunwali tribe,

272
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,200
they, they took him in, they fed
him.

273
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,520
And because of that, he came
under their care.

274
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,280
And so like they had hid him
from the Taliban.

275
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,560
And I've also read that in, you
know, so much more, you know,

276
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,640
the Jewish folks would have had
these traditions.

277
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,240
I've read that there would be
like these keys that would be

278
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,760
passed on to a family and you
could be like, I've never met

279
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,640
you, but here's the family key I
have and we're traveling

280
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,240
through.
Can you give us some lodging?

281
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,320
And they would say, Yep, you
know, come in here, let's give,

282
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,720
give you a hug.
So you could go 80 years and

283
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,000
that's what you know it between
traveling and then maybe we

284
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,920
finally see each other.
Yeah, no, that, that's

285
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,320
something.
So I think that helps us

286
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,280
understand like there were,
there were days, there was times

287
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,200
for arrangement, a lot of
familial connections.

288
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,280
Probably the other prominent
part is this in this hotel that

289
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,800
was filled.
How do we make sense, make sense

290
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,760
of that?
Because you even you read it in

291
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,840
a good translation like the ESP
or an ASP.

292
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,560
They, I don't know, I'm guessing
an ASP does a footnote as well.

293
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,560
ESP does a footnote with the
better translation, but that's

294
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,480
not what's in the their the
primary text you're reading.

295
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,160
Yeah, this doesn't even have a
footnote.

296
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,040
Come on.
An ASP?

297
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,480
Not, not.
Being so yeah.

298
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:43,240
Yeah, literal, but in tell us
about the What's that word mean?

299
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,400
What's like the Greek breakdown?
Yeah, we could give the original

300
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,160
translators of the KJV maybe a
little bit of the benefit of the

301
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:58,440
doubt, because in has become
more stylized towards, in our

302
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,280
mind, a hotel or motel or formal
lodging than what it may have

303
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,520
been back then.
But the Greek word behind this

304
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,520
is cataluma, and it's the same
word when Jesus and his

305
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,840
disciples have the Lord's Supper
in the upper room.

306
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,280
Which by the way, you can read
about this in Luke 22, so if

307
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,360
you're looking at the same
author using the same word, that

308
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,960
should give you a little bit of
insight how to translate this.

309
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,960
Right.
So a better translation instead

310
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,600
of there's no room for the them
in the end would be there's no

311
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,040
room for them in the guest room
or no room for them in the upper

312
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,640
room.
Because you would have typically

313
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,160
you'd have like 3 stories in a
house.

314
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,360
You'd have your lower story,
which would be where your

315
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,320
animals, animals would be.
You'd have your middle story,

316
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,920
which would be like your living
quarters, your kitchen and

317
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:46,440
stuff.
And then you would have an upper

318
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,520
room, which would be your guest
room where you might sleep or

319
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,560
you might have big meals or
something up there.

320
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,800
And it was crowded.
There were a lot of people who

321
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,400
were there for the census.
There was no room for them to

322
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,800
give birth in the upper room.
And so that that makes sense.

323
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,960
So maybe they had to go into
this guest room because the

324
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,480
primary room was was really
full, but it was still like in

325
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,720
the in the house.
It wasn't like this stable or

326
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,960
this barn in the middle, middle
nowhere.

327
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,360
Something else I want to mention
about word usage.

328
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,040
If you're staying in Luke, you
look at Luke 10.

329
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,840
We read the parable of the Good
Samaritan and the Greek word

330
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,440
about the end in the story is
panto chian.

331
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,000
I'm not a Greek scholar, but
they they use a different word

332
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,000
that actually means commercial
in which is different than this

333
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,000
word.
So it's funny that they're

334
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,880
translated similarly.
Probably goes back to tradition,

335
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,960
but I think that's not a slam
dunk case.

336
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,480
But you see the same author
using these words and you kind

337
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,160
of look at it paint paint a
picture.

338
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,360
So tell me about well.
I'll just say historically, you

339
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,080
know, there's not a lot of
people.

340
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,880
Bethlehem's not a huge town.
That's right.

341
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,440
It's on the, you know, it's on
the plane.

342
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,000
It's kind of on the outskirts
away from Jerusalem, maybe four

343
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,800
or five miles away.
And it's almost certain that

344
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,800
Bethlehem did not have a
commercial lodging.

345
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,000
There's, you'll get mixed stuff
on whether Jerusalem had one

346
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,400
because it had a lot of Roman
influence and Rome did, you

347
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,640
know, produce these, you know,
commercial lodgings along their

348
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,160
Roman roads.
So maybe they had put one up and

349
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,680
maybe that's what the Good
Samaritan had taken them to.

350
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,119
But that's right.
Yeah.

351
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,000
But it's it's it would not have
been part of the Jewish culture

352
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,040
for there to be one either.
So there could possibly have

353
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,360
been like a Roman one that they
put up there, but not not even

354
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,880
guaranteed that there is an inn
in Jerusalem which would have

355
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:38,720
been the largest nearby town.
Let's talk about Manger.

356
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,040
So just to keep going.
So So what we're saying is there

357
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,560
would potentially be a Manger in
in the home where the animals

358
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,040
are being.
So it's not like it has to be

359
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,200
this.
I mean, this guy Kenneth Bale,

360
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,200
he'll even say like it was hewed
out of the stone a lot of times

361
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,120
versus like you could do it
either way.

362
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,320
Basically like what you're
saying.

363
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:57,720
The bottom floor would be
animals.

364
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,200
You could like sweep stuff
downwards, you know what I mean?

365
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,200
And you kind of you want animals
inside.

366
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,440
It keeps you warm in the winter.
I mean, there's some you keep it

367
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,520
away from thefts it there.
There's a lot of good reasons

368
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,240
you might not have, you know,
300 acres to let people run

369
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,320
around.
And then what this guy does too,

370
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,800
is he points to a lot of
passages in scripture that talk

371
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,360
about a house.
And implicitly what's what you

372
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,760
see there is that animals are
being expected in the house.

373
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,920
A couple that I really like in
Judges 11, we read of Jephta,

374
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,440
who made this like rash valid,
I'm going to sacrifice whatever

375
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,800
walks through the door and he
sees his daughter.

376
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,440
He's surprised and we might be
reading it.

377
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,120
You don't think your family's
going to be in the home?

378
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,680
He thought an animal was going
to be home at the time of day he

379
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,480
was or whatever door he was
coming in.

380
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,240
Makes sense that animals were
expected to be in the house.

381
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,040
And First Samuel 28, Saul goes
to this woman who's going to,

382
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,680
you know, summon the spirit of
Samuel.

383
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,640
And you know, Saul's hungry.
She had a fattened calf in the

384
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,360
house is what it says.
So that was normal in this

385
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,360
culture that there would be
animals just just running

386
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:03,680
around.
So it's not like we're, you

387
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,160
know, drawing this out of
nowhere.

388
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,640
You see this in other parts of
Scripture as well.

389
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,960
And when you put these pieces
together, you're kind of like,

390
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,880
oh, this actually make makes a
lot of.

391
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,000
Sense it does make sense.
And what I've read is that

392
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,640
bottom level where the animals
were would often be a split

393
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,080
level.
So you would have like your feed

394
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,520
and stuff at the upper split and
your animals at the lower split.

395
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,560
And then you would like you
would said, probably not a

396
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,040
wooden Manger, maybe a wooden
Manger, but most of probably

397
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,360
some type of stone carving place
for a feeding through where we

398
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,360
just put the the feed.
And that would be right at that

399
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:39,360
split.
So you could put the feed there.

400
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:41,120
The animals will kind of be a
little bit lower.

401
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,280
And like you said, it would keep
the upper part cleaned off and

402
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,280
you could have you know, the
animal waste and stuff at that

403
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:47,760
lower level and you could sweep
it away.

404
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:54,000
But all of this makes sense of
Mary and Joseph going, staying

405
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,880
with relatives.
They're there for a while.

406
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:58,880
There's no room for them in the
upper room.

407
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,320
So and giving birth is not the
cleanest process.

408
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,680
So maybe you want them, you
know, in a place where it's

409
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,680
easily cleaned up and, and what
where else would they're, you

410
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,320
know, more natural down there to
put a baby than right there in

411
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,680
the place where it's almost like
a little crib, you know, shape

412
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,680
and.
When you think about that story,

413
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,440
it changes it a little bit where
it seems like everyone's like so

414
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,440
cold.
This pregnant woman with, you

415
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,560
know, everyone's like pushing
her out, Like, no, they took her

416
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,040
in and it was busy.
But it's a little bit different

417
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,680
of, you know, understanding.
It does.

418
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,840
What what happens is when you
change that, well, there's a lot

419
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,640
of Christmas movies that go out
out the window.

420
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,560
There's a lot of Christmas songs
like, you know, no room for the

421
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,720
King of Kings.
You know that song it, it goes

422
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,640
away because it doesn't really
fit.

423
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,400
You know what's?
Being said, yeah, it's hard to

424
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,040
yeah.
So with with this guy Bailey, he

425
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,880
this is what he says, he says
there is a book written around

426
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,240
the one around the year 280
called the Proto Evangelum

427
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:08,520
Evangelium of James that has
different, different, not modern

428
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,760
day, our modern day, but has
things like Mary gave birthright

429
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,480
away and these kind of things
that crept into maybe early

430
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,040
Jewish culture.
And like the two hundreds, 3

431
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,880
hundreds, 4 hundreds and even,
you know, I think I read Justin

432
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,160
Martyr was one of these people
who said, oh, probably, you

433
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,200
know, born in a cave versus a
guest room.

434
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,360
And the Eastern Orthodoxy kind
of ran with that.

435
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,400
It's not like they're pulling it
up.

436
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:31,840
No, it's just a martyr.
But it's like that's not

437
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,560
scripture.
And so you see where these

438
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,480
things start.
And then you know the king, you

439
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,080
know, things kind of spiral.
Right.

440
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,680
And I think some of these things
give rise to other myths that

441
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,480
creep in.
We can talk to later about where

442
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,160
did the how old was Jesus when
the wise men showed up?

443
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:53,080
Because, you know, if Jesus was
was born in a cave and the wise

444
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,680
men show up at a house, well,
that had to be sometime later,

445
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,600
but it was still Bethlehem.
You know, that's, you know, the

446
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,840
wise men show up and the the
Scripture says they consulted

447
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,240
the scribes and the scribes say,
oh, the Messiah is going to be

448
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,960
born in Bethlehem.
So they go to Bethlehem and they

449
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,320
find him there in the house.
So some people are like, oh, he

450
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,720
was two years old by then.
I'm like.

451
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,120
Where are you getting that?
That that's what I grew up

452
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,560
hearing all the time.
So this is what this is what you

453
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:23,120
need to do, Michael.
You need to design like a house

454
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,320
with an upper room like and
we're going to sell that.

455
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,040
And really there's, you know,
you got, you got like random

456
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,200
figurine.
Redo the the the nativity.

457
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,840
Yeah, yeah.
And they've just got like a huge

458
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,800
nativity.
And then Jesus is a maybe Jesus,

459
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,200
everyone's over here.
They're like, what are all these

460
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,360
other people?
They're like, well, you know,

461
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,720
this family that's like, that's
a cousin, you know, he, you

462
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,720
don't know these were full.
You know, it's like a huge

463
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,880
nativity that half of it people
don't pay, won't pay attention

464
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:44,960
to because they only want the
one part.

465
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,160
But you know, we want to be
accurate.

466
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,000
That's good.
That's good.

467
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,960
That's loop 2, one through 7.
Anything we want to hit in this

468
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,000
passage, we won't keep moving
on.

469
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,040
Or what?
We want, I think we can keep

470
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,040
moving on and maybe talk about
the shepherds 'cause there's a

471
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,640
couple other more recent myths
that have kind of popped up by

472
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,080
about the shepherds.
So I can read verses 8 through

473
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,000
kind of the end of the
shepherds.

474
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,800
It says in the same region there
were some shepherds staying out

475
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,600
in the fields and keeping watch
over their flock by night.

476
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,400
And an Angel of the Lord
suddenly stood before them, and

477
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,600
the glory of the Lord shone
around them, and they were

478
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,760
terribly frightened, but the
Angel said to them, do not be

479
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,320
afraid.
For behold, I bring you good

480
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,720
news of great joy, which will be
for all the people.

481
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,680
For today in the city of David
there has been born for you a

482
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,920
Savior who is Christ the Lord.
This will be a sign for you.

483
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,760
You will find a baby wrapped in
clothes and lying in a Manger.

484
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,240
So that's probably where we can
go there.

485
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,120
So there's a couple of recent
things that have shown up, one

486
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,960
of them by our friend Randy
Alcorn and some others who have

487
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,440
basically picked up on this idea
saying that shepherds were out

488
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,560
podcast, they had the lowest
status and wow, isn't it neat

489
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,400
that Jesus, the angels appeared
to them.

490
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:59,760
Well, the there is some, I think
there is a Talmud that does say

491
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,360
this, but it's like 60 years,
100 years after these events.

492
00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:09,920
So the reasoning is that maybe
they'd be had low status because

493
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,520
they were the messengers like,
but there was nothing around

494
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,480
this time that would have
indicated that shepherds had a

495
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,920
low status.
Maybe after the temple was

496
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,520
destroyed and animals weren't
sacrificed regularly anymore,

497
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,000
maybe that lowered their.
Status.

498
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,080
That would be interesting, yeah.
But there's nothing to indicate

499
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:33,840
from the text or from any text
that is of the same time that

500
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,160
shepherds had this very lowly.
Status and you think about, you

501
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,200
know, Psalm 23 or my shepherd,
you know, it's like it colors

502
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:41,720
some of that.
You're like, Oh, really, you

503
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,640
know, not that great, you know,
but I, I've read some of those

504
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,800
things too, where it, it, you're
like, that's, that's a more

505
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,520
recent, I mean, even if it's not
recent, but it's after the, the

506
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,000
birth of Jesus.
Now it is likely, but not

507
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,720
guaranteed, it is likely that
these shepherds were keeping

508
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,520
priestly flocks so that some,
not necessarily all, because all

509
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,800
the sheep would not have met the
qualifications to be a

510
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,960
sacrificial lamb, but those that
would would likely have been,

511
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,840
you know, taken to the temple.
Remember, the temple was nearby,

512
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,360
about about 3 or 4 miles, four
or five miles away, depending on

513
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:18,000
where the the flocks were
ranging.

514
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,920
So it is likely that these
shepherds were taking care of

515
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,240
flocks, that a large percentage
of them would have been

516
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,880
sacrificial lambs.
But out of that has crept in

517
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,400
this other idea, and I've even
said this from the pulpit, you

518
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,520
know, so you hear something, you
read it, you trust it, and then

519
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,800
you go back and you find some
other stuff like maybe this is

520
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,240
less likely certain.
But what I've heard was that

521
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:50,600
shepherds would have taken cloth
and wrapped them around lambs

522
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,160
that were going to be
potentially sacrificial lambs in

523
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,760
order to keep them from bruising
their legs or something.

524
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,520
Because you don't, you know,
it's got to be perfect.

525
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,880
And so to find a baby rat in
these, well, that was the sign,

526
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,240
but probably was the sign was
that there was a baby in a

527
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,040
Manger in the feeding through.
You know, that would have been

528
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,280
the sign because there's a lot
of Old Testament passages that

529
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,040
talk about wrapping.
You know, this was just like we

530
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,880
swaddle babies today in a cloth.
It was not uncommon for babies

531
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,400
to be swaddled in a cloth.
So this is something that's

532
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,680
probably popped up and been
reread into the story and not it

533
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,840
does sound nice.
I mean, it gets me, it got me

534
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,920
emotional when I was reading it.
But then you're like, oh, this

535
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,360
isn't true.
So.

536
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,560
You even I have to give up some
things that I've read and got

537
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,120
attached to because, you know,
we ultimately want to pursue the

538
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:41,560
truth.
That's exactly right.

539
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,560
Picking up.
I'll keep reading along.

540
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,040
I'm starting in verse 13 and
suddenly there was with the

541
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,400
Angel, a multitude of the
heavenly host praising God and

542
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,200
saying glory to God in the
highest and on earth, peace

543
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,680
among those with whom he is
pleased.

544
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,840
Maybe we can stop there because
you know what I hear a lot?

545
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,000
I hear a lot like the first half
of that Glory to God the highest

546
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,960
and and goodwill, peace towards
men.

547
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,200
But that's all I hear.
I don't hear the last little

548
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,320
phrase which makes a difference.
Yeah, yeah.

549
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:15,920
And that I, I, I think that's
good.

550
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,400
And I think maybe the KJV, yeah.
I think, I think that's the big

551
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,480
part, so ingrained.
And then we found other, older,

552
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,360
more reliable, better text
manuscripts that, you know, have

553
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,840
that other phrase in there and,
you know, like, oh, and peace,

554
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,840
goodwill towards men on whom he
has his favorite.

555
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,320
Yeah, that that is different.
It's not just a blanket

556
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,840
statement, something that
something to keep in mind

557
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,400
because I think it's easy to to
forget about that if we're

558
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,640
continuing on in verse 15 on the
account goes when the angels

559
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,080
went away from them into heaven.
The shepherd said to one

560
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,320
another, let us go over to
Bethlehem and see this thing

561
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,360
that has happened which the Lord
has made known to us.

562
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,720
And they went with haste and
found Mary and Joseph and the

563
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,200
baby lying in a Manger.
When they saw it, they made

564
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,120
known the saying that I've been
told them concerning his child.

565
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,880
And all who heard it wondered at
what the shepherds told him,

566
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,240
that Mary treasured up all these
things, pondering them in her

567
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:09,280
heart.
And the shepherds returned,

568
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,080
glorifying and praising God for
all they had heard and seen, as

569
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,040
it had been told them.
And at the end of eight days,

570
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,560
when he was circumcised, he was
called Jesus, the name given by

571
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,520
the Angel before he was
conceived in the womb.

572
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,000
Anything you want to add to the
rest of it?

573
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,400
Pretty straightforward.
Pretty straightforward.

574
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,960
I mean, you we could talk about
Mary.

575
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:30,920
I I think, you know, you see
some very human pictures of Mary

576
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,960
there.
She wasn't divine.

577
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,840
Yeah.
She needed a savior just like

578
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,240
us.
But other than that, I think

579
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,120
that's pretty straightforward.
Yeah, so Luke 2, we covered a

580
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,560
lot about the in, a lot about
Mary giving birth.

581
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,400
We talked a lot about this
phrase, you know, peace goodwill

582
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,280
toward men with whom you as
well.

583
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,680
Please agree as favor on hit a
few things, not just one thing.

584
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,040
So it's good to you know re
reconsider these things an elite

585
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,320
thing.
Read things in light of what

586
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,880
actually happened.
Yeah, that's good.

587
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,760
That's good.
Anything else to add for loop 2?

588
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,400
That is it.
Loop 2 is in the books.

589
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,480
That's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

590
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,720
Two.
Find us wherever you find

591
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,240
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

592
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:17,880
video cast.