Celebrity Pastors, Paychecks, and the Purpose of Ministry

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Summertime.
Summer starting to warm up.

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Getting hot out there.
That means that there are

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creatures that are out there.
Yeah, that some good Like

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butterflies.
OK, that's good.

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Yeah, some that are also good
but do don't have some danger.

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I don't think I like what you're
gonna say next.

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Snakes are out.
There.

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Wow.
Straight from Genesis 30, man.

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So crazy enough, my almost
youngest daughter Julia has

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really taken a liking to trying
to identify.

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Snakes, Julia, Don't do it.
Say it ain't.

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So, so we've been working
through like we started out with

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the six venomous snakes of our
area.

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As you do.
And like, hey, I'd build

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identify these.
And it is crazy how like, you

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know those really well, then you
start to learn other ones, then

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you go back and you're like,
start misidentifying the ones

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you should know, really.
Well, I know what you mean, I

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can totally relate.
But she's been doing pretty

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good.
Because there can be some.

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I'm gonna.
Quit.

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So if I had to see her next
time, what's like a quiz?

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I could.
I could be OK.

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Have you seen the orange
rattler?

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Like what's a snake name?
I don't.

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I'm not.
Yeah, you should probably like

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pull up a picture store area,
occipital maculata, OK, AKA

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common name, red bellied snake,
OK.

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And just, you know, show a
picture of that and say, hey,

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can you identify the snake?
I will, cause those are highly

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variable.
Very, but very pretty snakes.

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Yeah.
Wow.

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Small, like adults get, you
know, 12 to 15 inches long.

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That's as big as they get.
They're fossorial snakes so that

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I can live underneath leaves and
clutter.

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And they eat soft bodied
invertebrates like snails,

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slugs, worms, that type of
stuff.

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Boy, good for gardens.
Snakes.

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Hey, I'm growing a garden.
Maybe I should throw a few red

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bellies in there.
Yeah, if you see one, definitely

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don't kill them, but it is
possible.

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If you're not watching where
you're going, you could get, or

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if you're messing with 1 you
could get nipped by a venomous

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snake.
That's a bad day.

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It is a bad day, could be a
costly day, but PSA just and

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this is no hit against some of
our listeners like Cordell.

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But is he not like snakes?
Oh no, he's a doctor.

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Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.

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Oh, you're about to slam the
medical profession?

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I'm just saying that that
there's a lot for a doctor to

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know and snake bags are
relatively rare actually.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know that many people

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have been by even non venomous
like snakes in general.

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Yeah, well, you know Phoebe,
she's been bitten by a non

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venomous snake.
Wow, so that's like the only

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person I've ever met in my life.
I probably.

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I've been there.
OK, maybe two.

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Yeah, yeah, I just.
I don't know.

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But I guess I guess you relocate
them a lot.

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It's about.
To happen if you pick up a non

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venomous snake, Well, if you
pick up any snake, you you,

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you're saying I'm OK with you
biting me 'cause that's their

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only that is their one defense.
Well, they Musk, so they can't

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kind of get stinky, but that's
their one real defense.

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They Musk.
Yeah they do water snake Musk.

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Horrible.
Anyways, PSA there is a group on

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Facebook so you have to join
Facebook called National Snake

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Bite Support.
NSBS baby how?

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About it, yeah, just national
Snake Bite Sport and I can

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actually put a link to the
group.

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Oh.
I hope you do in our

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description.
Well, The thing is you might

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want to join this now if your,
your parent, if you or a close

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loved one are bitten by a
venomous snake, because there

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are doctors on here who are
specialized in the treatment of

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snake bites.
And they will talk, you know,

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your ER Doctor Who this is the
first snake bite they've seen.

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And they're trying to remember
everything they've learned in,

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you know, Med school.
And they're looking at, you

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know, they have, they actually
have like they can go look up

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like a little computer system,
like what should I do?

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Like remind me what I learned in
Med school.

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So that's what they're probably
doing.

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But they'll walk them through
like what test, blood test to

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run what to be looking for
indications, proper treatment,

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not proper treatment.
A lot of doctors, you know, anti

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venom is expensive.
Yeah, and a lot of doctors.

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Will tariffs, What's that?
No, just keep going.

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Yeah.
No, Yeah, we can talk about how

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it's made.
That's how it's made is.

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Sorry I brought it.
Down, you know, you, they have

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to basically milk the venom
glands of venomous snakes.

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So there's someone who just had
a whole bunch of venomous

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snakes, you know, every 3-4 days
they extract the venom and then

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they'll inject a little bit of
that into all these horses cause

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horses are pretty robust against
them.

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And so then that horse blood
will build up antibodies against

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the enzymes in the venom and
then they can extract that horse

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blood, you know, centrifuge it
out and get the anti the anti

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venom out of there.
But anyways, Long story short,

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if if you're your loved 1 is in
a situation where you find

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yourself having been bitten by a
venom a snake, get in contact

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with them.
There's no need to bring the

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snake in to I've always.
Heard that.

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Got to bring, got to catch.
Yeah, got to catch.

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So you know which one it is and
then that results in more bites

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and then you know the the ER
staff does not want that there.

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There are two types big
categories of snakes that you

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could get bit from Vipers or the
coral snake and and we have

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coral snake anti venom and then
any other Viper has the same

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anti venom 'cause they're
closely.

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Related.
So, and that means your cotton

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mouse slash water moccasins,
same snake, your copperheads,

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your canebrake slash timber
rattlers, your diamondback

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rattlers, your you know, if
you're over on the East Coast,

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your Southern Pacific rattlers
or your red, you know, back

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I'll.
Tell you what, copperheads I

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feel like, I feel like
everyone's like, oh, there's a

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bunch of copperheads under
there.

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Like that's like the go to if
you don't know a snake, just say

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copperhead 'cause they're
everywhere.

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They're very.
Common and they're probably they

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are because they're so common
and they're in the South where

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there's more you know, there are
other common snakes out in the

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deserts, but the people aren't
there.

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So they're probably the most
common where people are.

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They do account for the the most
bites, you know, and some people

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discount the copperhead because
it does probably have a lower

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toxicity of venom.
But that doesn't mean you don't

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need to get it treated.
If you get bit by a venomous

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snake and you have any systemic
issues like temperature,

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swelling, you know, pain, you
know, other than just the

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puncture pain.
But like you know, systemic

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pain, you need some anti venom.
Man, PSA watch out for the same

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way.
Speaking of snakes.

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Yeah, snakes.
There's a bunch of snakes out

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there.
They're all about that filthy

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lucre and mammon.
We're talking money today.

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Oh, and.
Are they?

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They're serving the Mammon.
They.

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They're all about the mammon,
which you know, you can't serve

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God in mammon.
That's right.

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And they're serving the mammon
just real quick if you had to

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pull I ChatGPT this top salaries
for pastors out there use pastor

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very loosely false teachers or
their fair game.

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You got any guesses who would
top this list?

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Out of the top 10.
Top ten.

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Yeah, just just.
I bet you would do.

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Well, I'm looking at these names
mostly.

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And this is just because we have
talked a little bit, so I know

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like some people get, is this
including all sources of income

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basically?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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This is also book sales count
which.

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Skews things a.
Little bit, yeah.

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So I mean, let's start with some
of The Who would say legitimate

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top salary getters.
Piper, is he on there?

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Oh.
See all This list is almost

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exclusively non conservative.
Non legitimate.

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OK, yeah, almost.
This is chat.

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You see what they pulled?
OK, Driscoll.

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Driscoll is not on there.
Think.

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Think more more out there.
More out there is it?

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Think about having your best
life or whatever it is.

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Joel Osteen.
Joel Osteen is #1 like, his net

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worth is like between this is
broad range 40 and $100 million.

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But obviously his books are
like, you know, so that's like

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#1I.
Can't remember any any of these

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names.
The guy that like speaking in

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tongues back and forth.
Who has the big jet?

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Oh, yeah.
So I'll I'll just run through

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some of these names.
Maybe.

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So TD Jakes is on there as you
you would probably he's just I

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saw some Benny Hinns on there.
Benny Hinn.

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Creflo Dollar.
What a name Creflo Dollar.

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He was meant to be a health.
Wealth and prosperity is that is

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that a stage name or is that his
birth certificate name I.

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Either way, it's like not good.
Like if he like chose this name,

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but maybe it does fit the brand.
Like, hey, I trust God, so I'm

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rich.
I don't know enough about him.

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I just Kenneth Copeland who had
that interview you were thinking

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of, probably it was great.
He just just some of these

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people, the way they look.
So a little more conservative.

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Not saying he's my guy or
anything.

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He's still out there.
Rick Warren purpose, I mean a

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purpose driven church or purpose
driven or whatever.

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Joyce Meyer, which Joyce Meyer,
that smile looks awfully like

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the Joker.
I don't know.

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It's, it's very, it's too much.
And then the most conservative

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guy, bottom of the list.
Most of it's from nonprofit

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salaries, not church necessarily
Franklin Graham High, but from

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Samaritan's Purse and stuff like
that.

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He does, he does pretty well for
himself there, but his annual

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salary is closer to 1,000,000
versus like 10s of millions.

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You know what I'm saying?
So it anyway.

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Did you know that Rick Warren
was actually pulled over one

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time for speeding?
Yeah, but he was in the backseat

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and there was a dolphin driving
his vehicle.

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Seriously.
Yeah, and the officer was like,

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what is up?
He's like, don't you know my

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whole life is purpose driven?
Porpoise I, I was like, where's

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this going?
But it kind of fits because I'm

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pretty sure they have an
aquarium at their church.

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Like I'm not joking, like a like
a experience that like you can

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like buy tickets to.
Yeah, yeah, I kind of like the

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ARC encounter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's so good.
But I bring that up because

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we're talking money.
How much should a pastor make?

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Because I think opinions are
everywhere on this.

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Yeah.
Do they make a lot?

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Should they?
Should they be poor?

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But anyway, we, we, we'll, we
got the definitive answer.

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Here, Yeah, we're going to,
we're going to give you the

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formula.
You just plug in the size of

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your church, your zip code, yes,
and a couple other things and it

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will crunch you what you should
be paying your pastor.

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That's the biblical number.
Now I love it.

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Well, let's jump into it.
Let's go ahead and take it to

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the next level from the hearts
of the low country in South

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Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level.

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All right, what should you pay a
pastor 'cause we're talking

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about finances?
And I saw this recently on a

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Facebook post 'cause people were
pretty upset about Joel Osteen.

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We.
Had Joel Osteen was something

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recent happened with him or just
it was just recirculating?

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Something just recirculation.
And I, I believe there are group

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of pastors who have sold quite a
number of books.

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I think Joel Osteen is there,
John Piper, Rick Warren, who

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actually don't take a salary
from their church, but obviously

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their church has platformed them
so that they can make money in

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these other ventures that
they're doing.

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Yeah.
And, and what's tricky about

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some of this too, It all gets
wrapped up together.

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You know, if you're at that
level, you're probably pretty

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entrepreneurial, like, like
you're, you're like, probably, I

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don't know.
And, and on some level, I think

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you in the other profession, if
you're like in the top 100

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engineers in the world, you
probably should make a lot of

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money.
Or if you're in the top, I don't

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know, you know what I mean,
where a lot of that like goes

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hand in hand.
But how?

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Much do the top 100 podcasters
make in the world?

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We wouldn't know, but with your
help, every subscriber help,

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maybe we could know one day.
But so and, and it, it's one of

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those things where, yeah.
And it's like you're in the

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ministry, so should you make
money?

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I don't know.
It's like it's and I honestly, I

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think past a pastor's role is
tough because so much of it is

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semi public or public and some
churches hide this stuff.

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That's a red flag.
But it's like, oh, that's like

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just a tough, it's a tough
situation or conversation to

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have, I think.
Yeah, and here's another thought

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about before we dive into the
notes proper.

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You know, I have often, well,
yeah, I have mixed thoughts

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about public education.
My kids, your kids are both in

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private school.
That's I think we've said that

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more than once.
And our and the private school

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teachers, they don't make as
much as the public school

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teachers.
But I, you know, I think public

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education is a good thing, but
when the government gives it for

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free, then it kind of brings
down what people are willing to

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pay for it or.
Even value, it's like they, you

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know, if you get something for
free, you tend not to value it.

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I think that's like a thing that
happens.

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And so I, you know, I am for,
you know, let's take some of the

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money that we're spending on all
of the computer hardware and the

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screens that we're putting in
front of the kids face and put

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that to teacher salaries.
Not because I think necessarily

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that every single teachers in
the public school system is

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doing such a good job.
They need a raise 'cause I

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think, but I think that the more
you pay them, the more you are

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going to attract higher quality
people and will be able to

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compete for those jobs.
So if you take that paradigm to

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pastoring, you know, you don't
want someone who is just in it

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for the money, obviously, but
there may be someone who might

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be otherwise highly qualified.
But it's like with my, and you

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could argue, I'll argue against
this, but you might have someone

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who could.
But it's like with, you know, my

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number of kids and everything
like that, it just and can't

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00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,560
make it financially work right
now.

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And I think what's complicating,
you know, inflation, it's

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everyone really hard.
And then it's like, yeah, do you

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do you want your pastor
commuting an hour to your

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church?
Like for some of the people you

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00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:25,800
have on a coastal city or
something?

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Is that like ideal or not?
How do you think about maybe

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00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,400
some of that place?
For us, it'd be like saying you

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00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,840
go get a house in Jedburg.
Where the?

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00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,360
Property prices are lower
because it's not as developed,

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00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,480
but commute in an hour or or
longer.

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00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,840
Or or longer, yeah.
And I think I don't know if

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00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,560
we'll get into it, but you know,
do you want your pastor to be bi

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00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:46,640
vocational?
Maybe you do.

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I mean, maybe it depends on your
church.

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00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,240
Maybe that's a good thing with
the maybe it's like, no, we

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00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,200
actually want to protect his
time so he can give it to the

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00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,400
flock.
A lot of good things to to

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00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,200
consider there.
So I, I think this is a

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00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,240
fascinating topic and people are
just, I think, all over the

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00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,120
place.
All right, so there are some

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00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,480
ethical implications that we
should consider when we're

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00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,440
talking about this transparency
or the lack thereof.

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00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,240
Should everyone know what a
pastor is making?

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00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,320
I know what for our church, you
know, we put out a budget and

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00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,520
you can see what you know who
all's getting paid what some of

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00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,440
this plays into your
understanding of doctrine or

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00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,160
theology.
So if you have an understanding

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00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:33,520
that someone who is living right
with God is promised to be, you

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00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,440
know, prosperous.
Your pastor better be making

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00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:36,920
money.
Then you got it right.

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00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,840
Or it's gonna, it's a House of
Cards, right?

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00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,320
Like I'm coming here to make
money and you're not making

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00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,440
money.
You must be not right with God.

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00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,240
That's a good point.
That bleeds into it.

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00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,800
And then there's some
accountability issues that, you

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00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,640
know, without the proper checks
and balance, there's a risk of,

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00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,320
you know, some, you know,
someone being money focused.

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00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640
And as you know, we're in this
sermon series, we're not doing

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00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,680
sermon recaps.
But you know, Joe will often say

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00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,080
we all think about, you know,
finances all the time.

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00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,560
It's something that we're all
thinking about, but are we

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00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,280
thinking about the right way?
And so I would never say a

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00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,880
pastor shouldn't be thinking
about finances 'cause he has to,

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00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,400
you know, take care of him,
himself and his family and all

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00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,280
those things.
So.

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00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,680
I love all this because and only
the worst things, maybe not the

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00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,800
worst things, but it's like with
social media, all these scandals

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00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,160
happen and nine times out of 10,
whether it's financial or not,

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00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,160
it's because there wasn't a lack
of transparency.

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00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,600
It's because there was no
accountability.

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00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,160
Someone just had all the power
and they went and you're kind of

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00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,640
like, how did it get there?
But it's always these

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00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,280
personalities it seems like that
are very successful, good at

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00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,880
what they do.
But you're like, man, why was

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00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,760
why did there's there's no way
there was transparency or this

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00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,120
wouldn't happen.
So I think those are good things

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00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,440
to bring up.
All right, so we have this model

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00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:55,240
and we talked about, we did our
Old Testament tithing and

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00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:01,240
offering podcast and all of
those went to support basically

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00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,640
the theocracy of Israel.
So you had the priesthood, the

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00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,839
Levis who were being supported
by those tithes and offerings

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00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,160
that were coming in.
New Testament model isn't tithes

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00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,480
and offering, but it's cheerful
giving.

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00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,800
But then we do have some
scripture that points to the

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00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:23,119
idea that those who are teaching
are in an elder role perhaps

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00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,480
should be compensated for that.
So we got First Timothy 517

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00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,040
through 18.
You want to read that one for.

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00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,520
Us, Paul writes, the elders who
rule well are to be considered

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00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,080
worthy of double honor,
especially those who work hard

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at preaching and teaching.
For the Scripture says You shall

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00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,720
not muzzle the ox while he is
threshing and the laborer is

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00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,840
worthy of his wages.
Classic verse.

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00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,920
That's great.
For like the Bible is inerrant

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00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,960
and all these things, you know,
you'll look at these quotations,

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00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,000
but also good that, you know,
pastors, especially those

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00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,400
preaching and teaching, should
be compensated in some capacity.

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00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,440
Yeah, and so we we even see this
thing Double honor.

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00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,200
Yeah, what's that mean?
What does that mean?

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00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,160
I, I had a teacher in my
undergrad Bible doctrines class

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00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,400
who he was like the way he took
this was you should take, you

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00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,120
know, the average of your
congregation and your pastor

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00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:18,440
should be compensated twice what
is average or like what's median

363
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,080
for the area.
And that's what you should

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00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:21,200
shoot, whether you can do it or
not.

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00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:22,600
That's like the goal.
That's what you should kind of

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00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,760
shoot for.
And then, you know, your pastor

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00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,520
can, that preaches and teaches
regularly, can devote that time.

368
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,680
He's not like, you know,
worrying for how his needs are

369
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,840
met and, and he can kind of be
in that position.

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00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,600
That's kind of that.
That was kind of where he.

371
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,400
Yeah, that's good.
And, you know, elders are called

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00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:48,000
to exercise hospitality and that
takes resources to do.

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00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,640
I know that our our local pastor
Joel, you know, meets with a lot

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00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,520
of folks and some of that is
taken off in his, you know, if

375
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,440
he has lunch and is under the,
the, you know, he's meeting with

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00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,960
someone to cycling someone.
I think he has part of his

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00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,000
salary package devoted to those
expenses so that those can be

378
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,040
tax free.
I don't know exactly how, but.

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00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,960
But that is an expense.
That pastors make because, you

380
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,200
know, they're going to visit
people, they're talking to

381
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,480
people.
So they, you know, they need to

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00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,320
have those resources.
Yeah, I, I, I, I like that there

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00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,280
is at least some part of
Scripture that considers this

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00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,600
because, man, I, I mean, Can you
imagine like Pastor Joel, like

385
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,000
not being able to do those
things or you know what I mean?

386
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,680
It's like that.
That impacts his ministry

387
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,720
tremendously.
Yeah, because, you know, a huge

388
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,720
amount of, you know, people
would show up, but if no one's

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00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,200
ever, you know, reaching out to
them, talking to them.

390
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,240
And obviously there's a role
that the body at large should be

391
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,000
playing.
But, you know, Joel does a lot

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00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,800
of that for us.
And it, you know, helps weave

393
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,920
things together.
I, I mean, I don't think this is

394
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,600
speaking poor, that this is not
a bad thing to say.

395
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,680
But like Pastor Joel, he, he's
got a nice in ground pool put in

396
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,480
his yard, but you, but he uses
that all of the time.

397
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,160
It's like it is a ministry thing
where he's like everyone's over

398
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,800
at his house.
So we got some of the kids are

399
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,760
doing it.
It's, and it's like, it's not

400
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,960
like, you know, he's got a $18
million house.

401
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,840
It's, I mean, it's a nice area
of town and probably, I mean,

402
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,040
probably with appreciation of
them doing really, really well.

403
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,680
But it's like that.
That's a really nice asset to

404
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,600
have that he is stewarding very
well.

405
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,960
No, that's good.
All right, next passage that

406
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,280
speaks to this First Corinthians
9, seven through 14.

407
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,480
This is not in our notes.
Do you want to?

408
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,080
Should we just read through
those?

409
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:38,600
You want to pull it up.
Oh, yeah, for the for the whole,

410
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,840
whole 7 or 8 versus whatever we
got there.

411
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,760
First Corinthians 9.
Yeah, 7 through 14.

412
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,160
I got it here.
Who serves as a soldier at his

413
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,040
own expense?
Who plants a vineyard without

414
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,360
eating any of its fruit?
Or who tends A flock without

415
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,080
getting some of the milk?
Do I say these things on human

416
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,040
authority?
Does not the law say the same?

417
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,080
For it's written in the law of
Moses.

418
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,240
You shall not muzzle an ox when
it turns out the grain.

419
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,480
Is it for oxen that God is
concerned?

420
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,520
Does it not certainly speak of
our sake?

421
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,200
It was written for our sake
because the plowman should plow

422
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,560
in hope that the thresher
thresh, in hope of sharing in

423
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,840
the crop.
If we have two sown spiritual

424
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,160
things among you, is it too much
We reap material things from you

425
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,720
if others share this rightful
claim on you too, not we even

426
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,000
more.
Nevertheless, we have not made

427
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,600
any use of this right, but we
endure anything rather than put

428
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,440
an obstacle on the way of the
gospel of Christ.

429
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,160
Do you not know that those who
are employed in the temple

430
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,480
service get their food from the
temple and those who serve at

431
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,600
the altar or share in the
sacrificial offerings?

432
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,160
In the same way the Lord
commanded that those who

433
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,120
proclaim the gospel should get
their living by the gospel.

434
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,280
This is extensive.
You know, Paul, I think, I think

435
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,600
this helps give some context
where Paul, and it's funny if

436
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,640
you read this and you're like
Paul didn't take money, that's

437
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:50,720
like your take away, right?
Right.

438
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,200
Because did you get?
That was through 14, right?

439
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,480
That was through 14. 15 now. 15
says, But I have made no use of

440
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,360
any of these rights, nor am I
writing these things to secure

441
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,520
any such provision, for I would
rather die than have anyone

442
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,320
deprive me of my ground for
boasting.

443
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,960
Yeah, so Paul is like saying
he's going to lay down the

444
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,320
letter of the law, like this is
the natural way of things.

445
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,520
Soldiers, they should make, they
should be able to make the

446
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,240
living off off of soldiering.
Vineyard workers should be able

447
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,240
to make their living off of the
Vineyard Temple Priests back in

448
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,080
the Old Testament were able to
make their living.

449
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,640
So the people who, you know, are
teaching and preaching and

450
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,240
serving in that way.
And really, Yeah, you're, if

451
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,920
you're asking them to do it at
full time, then it should be a

452
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,360
full time job where they're
getting paid.

453
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,000
Yeah, I, I, I think that's
great.

454
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,000
And I think, you know, Paul's
going so far to say like, hey,

455
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,520
this would be OK for me to ask,
but I'm not going to ask because

456
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,360
I, I don't want you guys.
There's no obstacle.

457
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,120
But you're right.
The point stands that he's like

458
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,760
listening this this the example
after example that no one thinks

459
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,480
those things are weird.
No one's like, oh, you're going

460
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,120
to pay your troops like, no, so,
so why not?

461
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,520
Why would this not apply in this
case?

462
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,800
No, that's great.
All right, Galatians 66, the one

463
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,360
who is taught the word is to
share all good things with the

464
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:14,440
one who teaches him.
So I actually hear this most in

465
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,000
the context of stand reason.
So Greg Kochel doesn't make

466
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,120
financial appeals often.
Normally towards the end of the

467
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,680
year in August, they'll have
they try to get 100 new

468
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,520
strategic partners every August.
But he'll say, you know, yes,

469
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,240
you should be giving to your
local church.

470
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,600
And we always give before we ask
to receive.

471
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,920
But if you have been profiting
from us, you know, we're going

472
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,600
to ask that we can maybe profit
from you some.

473
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,840
And so there may be ministries
out there like Standard Reason

474
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,920
or Answers in Genesis or
whatever, you know, wow.

475
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,200
Wow, Ken Ham, throw him a bone.
Wow.

476
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,640
If if there are ministries that
you are profiting from, then

477
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,480
maybe you should consider, you
know, giving them some amount.

478
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,560
Not, you know, I'm not trying to
say equal to what you give to

479
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,880
your local church, but
supporting them in some way

480
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,560
because you are learning.
From gaining something, it's

481
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,240
like, yeah, you wouldn't just
take a candy bar for free.

482
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,080
And you know, it's a little bit
different on my point.

483
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,680
But yes, I I the principle.
Yes.

484
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,320
Numbers 1821 through 24, an Old
Testament principle Moses writes

485
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,680
to the Levites.
I've given every tithe in Israel

486
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,920
for an inheritance in return for
their service, that they do

487
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,920
their service in the tent of
meeting, so that the people of

488
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,320
Israel don't come near the tent
of meeting, lest they bear sin

489
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,360
and die.
But the Levites shall do the

490
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:37,360
service of the tent of meeting,
and they shall bear their

491
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:39,080
iniquity.
It shall be a perpetual statute

492
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,640
throughout your generations and
among the people of Israel, for

493
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,400
they shall have no inheritance.
For the tide of the people of

494
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,520
Israel which they present as a
contribution to the Lord.

495
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,880
I've given to the Levites for an
inheritance.

496
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,200
Therefore, I've said to them
that they shall have no

497
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,760
inheritance among the people of
Israel.

498
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,240
And so not that we live by the
Old Testament, but we see this

499
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,760
kind of pattern, this principle
that's, you know, Levites were

500
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,920
set apart.
They, they didn't have land.

501
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,440
They, they were kind of and, and
on top of that, they, they bore

502
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,000
the sin and, and were at risk
for dying like they, they had a

503
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,120
little bit of risk in here that
they went on behalf of the

504
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,760
people that they kind of deserve
some of this contribution.

505
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,720
That's good.
All right.

506
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,120
So those are kind of our
positive, some of our positive

507
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,760
biblical passages towards paying
our pastors.

508
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,920
Whoa, couldn't talk there for a
little bit.

509
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,920
Here's some biblical warnings
and abuses are examples of them.

510
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,040
I think if you've read through
your Old Testament, you're

511
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,280
familiar with Eli, his sons
Hofni and Phineas.

512
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,360
And you know, there were certain
ways, I guess they were supposed

513
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,920
to dip a hook in this pot and it
would basically whatever the

514
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,160
hook came up as what the portion
was for the priests.

515
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,720
So the priests were kind of
still dependent on God for, you

516
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,000
know, their daily sustenance.
I think it was a reminder of

517
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:53,480
that.
But.

518
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,400
And they were kind of just like,
give me, give me, give me.

519
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,680
I get all this.
They said give me the rib eyes,

520
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,760
you can take the New York
strips, you know, type of thing.

521
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,200
But yeah, so they were they they
took me from offerings before a

522
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,400
sacrifice.
They practice sexual immorality,

523
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,200
abused a role.
And we'll see that all of Eli's

524
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,360
line were snuffed out so that he
didn't have any descendants, if

525
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,600
if I'm reading scripture right.
Yeah, yeah.

526
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,160
And if we're kind of applying
that principle, you know,

527
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,720
someone's overindulging
themselves or, you know,

528
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,800
someone's abusing the church
fund.

529
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,040
Not not when I call anyone out.
But we're not afraid of

530
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,160
controversy.
We were talking about this

531
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,040
before, Mark.
Mark Driscoll was like, he has

532
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,200
this book, Real marriage, that
New York Times bestseller.

533
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,080
But a lot of it was like using
church funds to try to prop it

534
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,440
up.
I don't know if it was illegal

535
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,360
or legal, whatever, but it was.
It's like over $200,000 of

536
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:46,600
church funds, which seems
excessive.

537
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,640
I mean, it's a big church.
I can understand if Pastor Joel

538
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,680
wrote a book, if the church was
like, hey, let's get 100 copies

539
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,120
for everyone. 200 copies like
that seems like.

540
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,240
In the ballpark.
Reasonable, yeah, whether like

541
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,360
just trying to artificially do
something or something that

542
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:00,840
would just benefit.
Let's buy $1 million worth of

543
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,160
this book.
Right all.

544
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,720
Right, so another bad example,
Micah 311 says her leaders

545
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:15,160
pronounce judgments for a bribe.
Her priest instruct for a price

546
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,480
and her prophets divine for
money.

547
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,760
And so you see the, the
motivation there, obviously for

548
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,680
your there's lots of proverbs
that talk about, you know, being

549
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,480
weary of a bribe and, you know,
and there's nothing actually

550
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,720
wrong for priests to obviously
be paid or for maybe a profit to

551
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,920
be taken care of.
But when the motivation changes

552
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,520
from let's do what's right and
I'm going to trust God to take

553
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,280
care of me before it, but in
changes for, you know, your

554
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:47,720
money focus.
And then that's a.

555
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,120
Problem.
Yeah, don't like that at all.

556
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:53,360
Staying in the Old Testament,
Malachi 3, eight through 10,

557
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,080
whole whole section.
We've got, you know, this

558
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,400
diatribe really on robbing God
through tithes and offerings.

559
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:02,680
You know, Pete, they're like,
what do we do, God?

560
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,240
And God's like, well, you, you
were actually robbing me.

561
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,600
They're you're withholding what
truly belongs to me.

562
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,360
And God calls them that.
Hey, you need to actually bring

563
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,680
your full time into the
storehouse, not just, you know,

564
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,240
say you're doing this and cut
corners and all these things.

565
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,160
Not not a good practice.
Nehi Maya, one of the shortest

566
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,320
in in the Old Testament records
were Levi's and singers had to

567
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,640
stop basically their work in the
temple, go back out to the

568
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,960
fields because the tithes
weren't coming in.

569
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,920
And so Nehemiah rebukes
officials for neglecting God

570
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,000
house, God's house, and tries to
get that back set in order.

571
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,120
So all that to say, you should
support your, your church, your

572
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,000
pastor's salary through giving.
Right.

573
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,160
Very good.
All right.

574
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,160
So going back to Paul, we see
Paul was kind of bivocational in

575
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,040
some sometimes.
So it's like, it's hard to say

576
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,800
that that is not, you know, anti
biblical or.

577
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,760
Or something.
But he basically makes the

578
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800
argument that someone should be
able to make their living from

579
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,200
it, shouldn't have to be
bivocational, but there may be

580
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,560
situations where they were.
I think that sometimes Paul

581
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:24,120
worked and, you know, was making
tents but was also supported by

582
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,600
another church.
I believe I recall that.

583
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,400
So like he's saying, you know,
these people supported me during

584
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,960
this time even, you know, I was
making.

585
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,120
So he's kind of getting some
money from his tent, making some

586
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,400
money from another place that he
had already established while he

587
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,000
ministered to a new place.
Because I think Paul's,

588
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,440
especially as the gospel's
spreading, he doesn't want

589
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,800
people to think he's just doing
this to, to get money.

590
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,520
Yeah, yeah.
It's always tough to like you.

591
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,200
Look, you want to emulate Paul.
Maybe not the pattern for most

592
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,280
pastors either.
Like, like, hey, you know, but I

593
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,000
think I think that's good.
He did talk a lot about, you

594
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,840
know, don't be idle.
Set this example.

595
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,600
You know, he wrote in his
letters, if you don't work, you

596
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,160
don't eat, you're worse than a
believer, all these things.

597
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,320
So he his goal was, yeah, I'm
not, not only am I, you know,

598
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,960
doing what I'm supposed to be
doing.

599
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,520
I'm not being lazy.
I'm doing my job really, really

600
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,160
well.
Yeah, and I should just look at

601
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,440
my nose.
Philippians 414 through 18

602
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,560
details where Paul received
financial support from the

603
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,120
Philippians while he was
ministering elsewhere.

604
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,480
So they had supported him while
he was ministering and maybe

605
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,280
that was when he was in jail and
and maybe tent making was less

606
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,080
of an option.
But yeah, all right, so

607
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,840
practical wisdom, how much is
too much?

608
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,960
Is $1,000,000 a year too much
for a pastor?

609
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,480
You know, this is funny because
I'll compare and contrast this.

610
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,320
My guy, John Piper.
I, I might be making this.

611
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,880
I don't know if he lives off of
book sales or not, but he takes

612
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,680
a very modest salary.
It's probably because of book

613
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,000
sales.
John MacArthur, a guy who I

614
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000
respect a ton, He makes a lot of
money.

615
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,480
He I was looking this up.
I don't know if these are

616
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,280
totally true but he's making
like $400,000 off of grace to

617
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,640
you for like 20 hours or less of
work a week.

618
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,560
He's making money from the
master seminary like over 100K.

619
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,000
He's making over 100K at his his
church Grace.

620
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,880
And so you had this together
making any.

621
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,760
I don't know if he takes money
from booksells or not, but he's

622
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,480
making a lot of money.
But his stuff is, I mean,

623
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,760
especially when he go away from
the pulpit, like I think grace

624
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,320
to you just like repurposes all
of his sermons and like little

625
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,600
devotionals and things.
Anyway, So and I I would not put

626
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,240
John MacArthur in this Benny
Hinn category, right?

627
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,240
But I I think so basically if we
kind of total it, there's three

628
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,360
different ministries, 400K for
his primary, 100K for the

629
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,400
masters seminary, and then 100K
for something else.

630
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,320
Yeah, so Grace Community Church
that that's the salary that's a

631
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,800
little bit hazy.
We don't know.

632
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Grace to you over 400,000 a
year, Masters over 100,000.

633
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,120
The church might be maybe maybe
he's like, hey, church don't

634
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,760
pay.
The Grace Community Church is

635
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,240
what we don't know but could be
around 100,000.

636
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,120
We let's just so some he's
making somewhere let's say

637
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:10,560
between 500,000 and 700,000 for
his 40 hours plus 'cause I'm

638
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,960
sure he may not be today working
that much, but there was a time

639
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,800
when I'm sure he was putting in
more than. 40 I'm sure he was,

640
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,160
yeah, when he was a young man,
probably just like booking it.

641
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,640
And so then if you look at the
median salary of someone in that

642
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,560
area of California, that's
probably not, it's definitely

643
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,200
within the double, right.
If you do the double honor, then

644
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,680
it's he.
That's probably not unrealistic.

645
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,760
So you're what you're telling me
is context makes a difference?

646
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,680
Maybe if you're in a fifty
person church in rural Missouri

647
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,120
is different than being like in
New York City out of, you know,

648
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,120
500,000 person church, that'd be
a really big church, But you

649
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,280
know, like you got to take some
of that into consideration.

650
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,080
What do you think about, you
know, do you take like the

651
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,360
average church member into
consideration?

652
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,200
Like what or that doesn't
matter, You know, is it like,

653
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,000
you know, your your ministry is
to, I don't know, physicians

654
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,000
like does that change the
calculus a little bit?

655
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,080
I don't.
Know yeah, the first Physicians

656
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,840
Church we only administrative
physicians and lawyers or

657
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,800
whatever yeah.
That's funny.

658
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,800
So here are some maybe things
you should consider when trying

659
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,360
to weigh.
And obviously, we've been

660
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,120
touting this equation.
We're not going to give you

661
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,240
spoiler alert.
We're not going to be able to

662
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,760
give you an equation that gives
you the exact number.

663
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,160
But here are some things to
consider.

664
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,080
Is it too little, you know, if
your pastor is having to be by

665
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,680
vocational?
Yeah, and maybe, you know, if

666
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,120
it's a thirteen person church in
rural Arkansas.

667
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,640
Probably makes sense.
Maybe it does make sense for it

668
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,280
to be bivocational.
But but if he's bivocational and

669
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,400
you're in a 300 person church,
that that might be a problem of

670
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,160
the congregation.
You're like, wow, that's just

671
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,960
that's kind of shameful.
Like you need to support your

672
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,600
pastor.
If your pastor is struggling to

673
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,200
support a family at a normal
level, like we're not saying

674
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,600
they should be able to go get
the Bentleys, but if they're if

675
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,639
they are struggling to keep a
car that's working, then that's

676
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,679
and and they're, you know,
being, you know, good stewards

677
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,000
of what you're giving them, you
may not be giving them enough.

678
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,600
Yeah, I think, I think all.
And it's like you, you probably

679
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,639
know, you probably know it when
you see it to some extent, like

680
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,239
it's OK to live a normal life.
I think some people have this

681
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,440
idea that like you're supposed
to suffer in ministry.

682
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,400
You know what I mean too?
Where it's like, man, if you I

683
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,199
would, and I think it's
everyone's in a different

684
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,880
perspective.
I, it'd be so it'd be tough to

685
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,719
be primary preaching pastor.
I would probably, this is

686
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,639
probably a pride thing on my
part.

687
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,080
I probably would buy like a
notch or two lower car than I

688
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,600
needed to just because you don't
want to be like, oh, look at

689
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,080
Zach strolling up in this car.
You know what I mean?

690
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,159
Even if it's like, no, it's
actually pretty.

691
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:53,480
This is like normal.
You know what I mean?

692
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,960
I made the finance as well.
It's just you're in such a

693
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,800
position where I think people
can nitpick stuff, you know,

694
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,840
it's.
Funny that you say that because

695
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:04,480
I think one of Joel's hopefully
not oversharing about Joel's

696
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,160
financial situations, but I
think one of his brothers was a

697
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,040
like a manager, head salesman or
something at a Lexus dealership

698
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,720
in Michigan and just doing OK
and just wanted to bless his

699
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:21,800
brother with, I don't know if it
was a new Lexus, but it was a

700
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,360
nice good Lexus vehicle.
And, and Joel would always say,

701
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,440
yeah, my brother, I got this
from my brother because he

702
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,480
didn't want people to, to be
thinking that he was maybe

703
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,560
misusing his money.
But you know, it's, it's sad

704
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,920
that you'd have to, you'd have
to think that way.

705
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,680
Yeah.
No, I, I think that's right.

706
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,560
And you and it's like to me, and
maybe this is judgmental,

707
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,080
probably is, but it's like when
I look at like the Kenneth

708
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,000
Copeland's of the world and
stuff, it just like hits me in

709
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,160
the face.
But that is so excessive.

710
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,880
Like it's, you're not even
trying to, you know?

711
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,720
Yeah, you should go look up this
video, if you haven't already

712
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,280
seen it, where Inside Edition
finds him.

713
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:02,520
And I think he's like, kind of,
you know, open to, oh, more

714
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,200
media attention.
Then she starts hitting them

715
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,400
with these hard hitting
questions and it's like he looks

716
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,280
like he's demon possessed there
for a little bit.

717
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,000
You know, it's crazy.
Then he kind of he I think he

718
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,280
you can sell like the the gears
are shifting in his mind, like

719
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,480
you better control your reaction
here because this is this is

720
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,320
being recorded type of thing.
But yeah, if if if you're buying

721
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,800
2 private jets, nothing wrong
with private jets.

722
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But maybe you're on the the too

723
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,080
big of an end of of your salary
there.

724
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,800
Now it's good I like these
guiding principles consider the

725
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,080
cost of living like where you
are that that's gonna make a

726
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,720
huge difference.
Our church is in Charleston high

727
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,120
cost of living.
That's why I live out in out in

728
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,640
Summerville where the houses are
affordable but it's like crates

729
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,640
that's.
Why we live in North Goose?

730
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,600
Creek and and South Carolina's
like not an expensive state to

731
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:53,600
live.
I mean, like when you think

732
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,840
about Cal Ford and you think
about something like how is that

733
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,280
a thing?
I'm like, this is crazy.

734
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,800
Yeah, there are, like when
you're driving through a lot of

735
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,720
rural South Carolina, you're
like, how could I live out here

736
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,480
and still make the same income
that I make, you know, inside

737
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,280
the suburb of Charleston?
But yeah.

738
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,720
We have this known on comparable
roles, you know, you kind of

739
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,880
look at similar things like a
school principal, nonprofit

740
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,480
director of a similar
institution.

741
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,240
Like, you know, there's some
give and take there, but you

742
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:23,800
should be able to see,
especially if you're if you're

743
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,800
the congregational LED whatever
and you're trying to like

744
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,400
develop the budget.
These things are important.

745
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,680
Does the pastor have like 5 like
grade school kids or like one

746
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,120
kid out of college?
Yeah, we have a whole section

747
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,800
here to ask that because there,
you know, some people will look

748
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,200
for, oh, we want a single
pastor.

749
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,040
We don't have to pay them as
much.

750
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,800
You know what I'm saying?
Have you ever heard this?

751
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,440
That's wild.
It makes it.

752
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,440
Kids ain't cheap.
Kids are not cheap.

753
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,840
Kids aren't cheap.
And so should you know, should

754
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,360
you just pay the pastor for the
job?

755
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,840
Like you're doing a good job?
Here's what this job is worth?

756
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Or should you take into account
he's single so we can pay him

757
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,080
less?
Or maybe on the other end, he's

758
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,080
married with five kids, should
be in their own private school.

759
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,560
Should we consider paying him
more?

760
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,320
You know, those are, I think
those are legitimate questions

761
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,000
to ask.
Yeah, that's a great question.

762
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,960
And part of it is too, like our
pastor, his kids are out of the

763
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,840
house, right?
So she would pay less.

764
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,320
On the other side things he's
got whatever 55 years of

765
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,120
experience or whatever it is,
it's like, well that's valuable

766
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,080
too, you know right.
Versus someone who maybe has 10

767
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,080
years experience but they do
have 8 kids or.

768
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,000
Whatever.
Yeah.

769
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,600
So it is it context, like you
said, matters because you know

770
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,600
how long they've been there,
faithful, doing a good job.

771
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:44,320
You know all those things should
be part of of of the

772
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,840
calculation.
Now that that's and so I think

773
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,520
if you're not thinking about it
or I think it's, it's wise for a

774
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,280
church to be re evaluating this
often.

775
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,360
I mean, like especially in
today's climate, it's like you

776
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,680
got to be thinking about this,
you know, don't, don't just

777
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,680
like, oh, it's been like this
for 10 years or whatever.

778
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,800
You know that that's a kind of
scary place to be.

779
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,240
All right, so kind of final
thoughts and practical wisdom,

780
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,400
just some guidance, you know,
you want to and and you may not

781
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,960
be in a leadership role, so you
may not be able to act this, But

782
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,880
if you are in a leadership role
or if you have a voice into

783
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,760
this, you know, it should be a
non.

784
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,520
I know salaries are always kind
of touchy, but it should kind of

785
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:35,040
be, you know, transparent, non
touchy issue where you have some

786
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,760
type of clear policies or
thought process on how you're

787
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,120
going to compensate a pastor.
You know, Joel is 72, I believe.

788
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,800
So you know, he's told us, you
know, in the next three years,

789
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,840
you know, I'm going to be
looking to transition out of the

790
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,760
pulpit for full time ministry.
That means we're looking for

791
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,600
who's going to replace him and
we're going to be front central

792
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:02,480
trying to answer these questions
like how do we, you know, pay?

793
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,920
How do we find someone?
And then what?

794
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,960
What do we pay him?
Cool, now that that is a good

795
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,920
something.
I would hope that you do know

796
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,000
what your pastor makes.
Like if you don't, you should

797
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,840
ask there's that should be like
not the most top secret thing in

798
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:17,400
the world.
If it's top secret, you should

799
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,520
worry like is it excessive or
people like keeping this under

800
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,040
wrap?
I mean, on the other end too,

801
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,240
something transparency is great.
Like you said, maybe it's a

802
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,480
little more touchy, but it's
just good for that

803
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,160
accountability aspect.
Yeah.

804
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,840
So it promotes accountability.
And obviously we want the his

805
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,880
focus to be on his mission.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

806
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,200
And so if you've selected the
right person, then you should be

807
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,160
able to pay them a reasonable
amount so that they're not

808
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:46,920
having to focus on finances all
the time.

809
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,280
They're able to, you know, build
a focus on the church and, and

810
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,200
what's what, what needs to be
done.

811
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,080
Couldn't set it better myself.
All right.

812
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,080
Any closing thoughts?
I think we just need to find a

813
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,560
pastor who has major
bookshelves, then their salary

814
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,400
is good.
John Piper, you look into yeah,

815
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,000
some of these people are kind of
at the end the, you know, the,

816
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,800
the end of their careers.
I don't know how many years John

817
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,160
Piper has left, but you know,
probably does not want to come

818
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,200
to John to Charleston.
Down.

819
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,240
Well, yeah, I got nothing else
that does this conclude our

820
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:24,960
series.
I think this concludes our

821
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,400
series on finances.
Joel may take, you know, he may

822
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,160
last a week or more, but I
think, you know, we're good.

823
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,360
We're we're good sweet, alright,
unless, unless there's some

824
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,520
great, you know, user comment
that you know, you want us to

825
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,120
maybe we'll pick up.
Yeah, maybe we should talk.

826
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,040
Michael tells me that he like
sports.

827
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:43,880
Gamble's a lot.
He's like really big on that.

828
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:46,280
We shouldn't talk about it
anymore.

829
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:47,800
Just with that.
I'm just kidding.

830
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,200
He does not.
Do you know anyone who supports

831
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,760
gambles though?
I used to dabble a little bit.

832
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,240
I I have cut.
I have, I have.

833
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,560
I don't anymore as a young man,
you know.

834
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:57,760
Yeah.
Do do you?

835
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,200
Were you overall up or down on?
It, you know, I, I thought I was

836
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,400
doing really good.
I looked back at it and I was

837
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,480
overall like, it's like $50.
Like I didn't gain a lot of

838
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,880
money, but it's like a lot of
time and effort for nothing.

839
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,200
Like, I mean, it's more, it's
more and I viewed it as like,

840
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,080
hey, instead of spending $3 a
day on a cup of coffee, this is

841
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaking of your finances.
Have you ever heard this?

842
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,480
Like, Hey, if, if instead of
buying a cup of coffee, you save

843
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,080
that money, you'll have like a
Corvette or, or it's like, and

844
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,400
I'm like, where's your like
it's.

845
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,080
What coffee are you buying?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

846
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,040
It's like, you know, I don't
know, it's like everyone's got

847
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,960
their, got their, you know, you
want to be responsible, but it's

848
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,880
like if you're, if you're not,
if you're not, like, hey, here's

849
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,440
my mortgage, just put it all in
black.

850
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,200
That's a bad place to be.
But you know, I think, I think,

851
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,680
you know, you there, there's a
little, little leeway and you

852
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,320
know, there's a difference
between, you know, millions of

853
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,320
dollars in pennies or whatever.
But so anyway.

854
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,880
All right, that is our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

855
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,120
Two.
Find us wherever you find

856
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,600
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

857
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:00,280
video cast.