From Psalms to Hymns: How the Church Learned to Sing Christ

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Music.
Music to my ears, yeah.

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We we've been talking a lot of
music.

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Where?
Where are we at in this series

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if you count Tim?
Yeah, so we've talked with Tim

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and we really were looking at
the wisdom behind music

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selection for, you know, what a
congregation might sing.

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And we're looking at a couple of
pointed questions, like could

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you sing what you might consider
a well written song?

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Even if it was.
Even if it came maybe from a

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yeah, a reckless source.
And then we even talked about

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maybe some songs like that, like
reckless, you know, the wisdom

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of that, you know, and maybe
just the philosophy of how you

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pick out a good song.
Like what what, what would be a

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song that would kind of meet
that criteria of what you would

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want to sing versus a song that
you wouldn't want to sing.

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And it's not necessarily the
same that some songs are bad.

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It's just like you, you got 456
depending on who you are, songs

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in your service and you have
limited space.

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So let's put the best in.
That's great.

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And so then we went from there
and did we go to exclusive

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psalmody from there?
Yes, yeah, yeah.

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And we kind of went down this
pathway, you know, some some

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churches out there like we're
gonna sing the Bible and nothing

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else to prevent some of that
issue.

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We talked about the rebel Isaac
Watts and his revolutionary hymn

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and the his view was we want to
sing about Christ, but in his

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day got a lot of pushback.
We look at it from our vantage

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point, we're like, that's crazy.
It's almost like why we got to

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sing hymns like they're so old
school.

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It's funny thinking they're
rebellious and in the spirit of

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the good hymn writer, we you
might call this one when I

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survey.
Worship through the years.

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And so the wonders cross.
So, so the episode today, today,

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yeah, that's right, is a survey
kind of on music and music in

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the history of the New Testament
church, would you say?

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Perfect.
We're going to hit, you know,

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every maybe couple few 100
centuries and March our way up

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all the way up to the 2000s.
And will we see like ACDC or Def

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Leppard in this list?
Probably not, even though I

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think if you're familiar with
Perry Noble at What's the Church

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in Greenville?
New Spring.

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New spring, Yeah, Yeah.
On Easter Sunday, they always

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made it.
They wanted the stand out and

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one way they opened up their
service with good old highway to

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hell just to really set the
tone.

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That's what you want in worship.
So we that might be the extent

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of ACDC, you know.
I was preaching at my home

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church and this was the previous
pastor, so it's not the current

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pastor, but I asked the song
person I was preaching on the

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Jars of Clay passage.
And if you were a fan of Jars of

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Clay, there's that hidden track
at the end that started out with

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like the couscous car.
And like we have this.

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And I said, can you play that
kind of like in the And like the

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pastor came back to him 'cause
he didn't know.

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He was like, what are we doing?
Like turn that off.

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Like that was just the two
rock'n'roll or contemporary.

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He's like, well, Michael like
this goes with his sermon, so.

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Well, yeah, so we'll we'll get
into, you know, what was in at

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what time.
So we good.

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I think we're good.
Let's.

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Go ahead.
Take it to the next level.

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It's great.
Let's fire up that twang of

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music.
From the hearts of the Low

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Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast, but

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we take theology to the next
level.

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The early church we're going all
the way back to just right after

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Acts because I'm sure they we
should emulate exactly what

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they.
Did.

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That's right, Right.
Same culture, same time period,

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same, you know, traditions.
Yeah.

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And I, I, I, I think that's the
right way to think about it.

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Everyone's got their traditions.
And you think of the early

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church, they weren't, you know,
in a vacuum.

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They inherited, you know, some
of the synagogue life, this

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temple life like that, that
would have been in the culture

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on their mind.
And so when it came to worship,

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I'm sure some of those things
played an effect, just like, you

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know, today, instruments, things
in the culture.

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It's not like you're coming to
worship in a total vacuum.

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So very Jewish in their roots.
You can imagine book of Psalms

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they were they were singing a
lot of these Psalms scripture

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saturated very structured had
corporate singing a lot of times

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led to memorization and they
would use this this worship of

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songs and psalms and prayer
confession and these kind of

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things.
And so the early Christians kind

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of continued this, but
incorporated Christ into this a

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little.
Bit right, they couldn't.

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Like, this was good, this was
good.

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But very early on we saw the
inclusion now of what we might

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consider hymns or songs that are
even sometimes captured in our

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scripture.
Oh, that, that's good.

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And I think that basis is good.
These these familiar passages.

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Do you want to look some of
these up?

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I'll look some of these up.
Sound like a plan sword drill.

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You want Philippians or
Colossians?

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I will take Colossians.
Oh, OK, I'll hit Philippians 2.

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And when you think of
Philippians 2, I think, you

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know, people's minds are
probably already going to, you

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know, Christ's condescension.
I will read verses 6 through 11

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and it reads, Who, though he was
in the form of God, did not

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count equality with God a thing
to be grasped, but emptied

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himself by taking the form of a
servant's being born in the

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likeness of men, and being found
in human form, he humbled

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himself by becoming obedient to
the point of death, even death

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on a cross.
Therefore God has highly exalted

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him and bestowed on him the name
that is above every name, so

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that at the name of Jesus every
knee should bow in heaven and on

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earth and under the earth.
And every tongue confessed that

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Jesus Christ is Lord to the
glory of God the Father.

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And, and really that that is a
hymn of sorts.

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And so that makes sense that
that would just be carried over

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into singing.
And we know that because of how

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it's structured in the original
language and how it's kind of

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set apart stuff.
Here's another one.

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Colossians 115 says For he is
the image of the invisible God,

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the first born of all creation.
For by Him all things were

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created both in the heavens and
on earth, visible and invisible,

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whether Thrones or dominions or
rulers or authorities, all

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things have been created through
Him and for Him.

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He is before all things, and in
Him all things hold together.

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He is also the Head of the Body,
the Church, and He is the

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beginning, the first born from
the dead, so that He Himself

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will come to have first place in
everything.

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For it was the Father's good
pleasure for all the fullness to

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dwell in Him and through Him to
reconcile all things to Himself,

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having made peace through the
blood of His Cross.

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Through Him I say, whether
things on earth or things in

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heaven.
Nice that that you know that's

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one of the passages we'll talk
about a lot in worship to same

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thing got some of that poetic
language.

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One more passage, first Timothy
316 says great indeed, we

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confess is the mystery of
godliness.

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God was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit, seen

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by angels, proclaimed among the
nations, believed on in the

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world, taken up in glory.
And the way that one reads is

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kind of like statement after
statement.

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It's all connected.
And so I think, I think these

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passages are very structured,
poetic in language.

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I, I would be curious to talk to
a native Greek speaker about how

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just memorable, you know, you
say these things and there's

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kind of like maybe a rhythm to
it.

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You can just kind of memorize
these things easily.

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And therefore it would have lend
itself to public worship,

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corporate confession, these
kinds of things.

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Probably similar to a catechism.
There you go.

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In a verse structure that you
could repeat.

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No, I, I think, I think, I think
that's great.

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And so that the early church was
in this kind of tension where

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they wanted to hold on to the
Scripture, you know, Scripture,

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they inherited Old Testament and
as you know, New Testaments

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coming into being and joyful
proclamation of this fulfillment

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of Christ, which we just kind of
read about several times in in

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the New Testament.
So they didn't totally do away

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with the Psalms, but they felt
called that they they needed to

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sing about the truth.
And maybe that's instructive

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for, you know, what Isaac Watts
was doing many years later.

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Yeah, because you there is a
basis for wanting to do this.

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We kind of talked about this a
little bit last podcast, but

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there's been a kind of shift, a
cosmic shift you might say, in

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Judaism slash Christianity.
The Messiah has come for the

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first time.
And so Christ is set forth into

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history and the gospel, you want
to proclaim it and it wasn't.

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You know, Paul has talked about
it being a mystery before, but

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now it's revealed.
That's right.

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And you want to make sure that
what you're saying and singing

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reveals that history.
And so you would have these

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challenges, I presume, if you're
there like, oh, we've already

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sung these psalms with the
shafar and now we're doing these

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new hymns with the tuba, you
know, so it makes it.

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Got to stink the tuba and
there's somewhere but but I like

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I I think this is good.
I and, you know, they were

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thinking these hymns that they
functioned not just to like

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carry a nice tune, but to teach
doctrine.

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You know, particularly there
would be those, they're

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illiterate, but you could like
sing and get this song stuck in

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your head, be able to confess
certain truths, like the

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Trinity, like the incarnation.
In doing so, you protect

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orthodoxy and you bring unity.
You know, when you know, you

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probably find yourself, you're
walking around, you get like the

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song stuck in your head or
whatever.

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Hopefully it's a good song, you
know?

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And you're like, oh man, you can
like nail down, you know, really

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good truths 'cause you're
singing it over versus like

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you're like, oh, why is it stuck
in my head, you know?

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Right.
Yeah, I have.

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Should I should have confession
time?

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Apparently there's this song
from this anime I don't know

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from Demon Hunter.
I've got a great.

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Game.
But I've heard it and I've heard

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some people singing it on some
reels, and now it's stuck in my

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mouth and I don't even know what
all the words are.

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It's just the melody going over
and over again.

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And I, like, start humming in or
whistling it.

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And like the math students are
like, no, Mr. Martin.

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No, don't do it.
They they know too much.

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So that's a good example of a
bad example.

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Yeah, yeah, it just.
Like, but if you have like a

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hymn stuck in your head, that's
good 'cause it's gonna instruct

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you.
I like, I like that a lot.

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So that really fly over you
first through 4th century,

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really we're kind of
transitioning more, you know,

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out of the 4th century through
the 8th century, the patristic

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era a little bit.
See.

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See what?
What were they all about?

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South during this time, we've
had another shift more like

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socially now because before then
Christianity was illegal and we

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had, you know, if you study this
that, you know, the first 3

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centuries, it's kind of hit and
miss.

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There's pockets of like great
persecution versus not as big

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persecution.
So it's hard to like label it

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all.
But we do know, like there was

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those big times when Christians
were being thrown into the

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Colosseum.
Now with Constantinople here

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and, you know, the establishment
of Christianity as a legal

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religion, now you kind of see
like the whole Roman, you know,

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world start to turn on this
worship music.

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So, so you get like these major
figures that that stand out.

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You may have heard of some of
these, maybe not Ambrose of

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Milan if you're thinking 3
hundreds.

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He is credited as introducing
congregational hymn singing.

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You know, from a Western church
perspective, he used hymns on

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purpose, very specifically and
purposely to combat Arianism.

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You know, hey, if you're going
to come attacking Christ's

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divinity, we're going to have
some of these songs are going to

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00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,280
be built around that to help
strengthen our church.

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00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,360
So Saint Nicholas used his first
to combat Arianism and Ambrose

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00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,840
used songs.
I love it.

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There you go and and he was very
firm in thinking, you know, the

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congregation, they should sing
theology, not just hear

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00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,040
proclaimed, but participate,
confess it and sing it, which I

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00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,720
like a lot.
I love you got to give everyone

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00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,240
everyone against, you know, all
all these heresies and that that

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kind of thing.
And it makes you wonder about

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00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,920
our songs today.
Like, you know, how much

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00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:33,920
doctrine is in there.
I think a lot of times have a

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really good doctrine.
Some songs out there, not the

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one, I'm not saying the ones we
sing yesterday, but some out

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there are like, man, make you
feel really good, but you're

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00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:41,720
like, what did what did we talk
about?

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00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,720
Even if it's nothing bad, it's
just not substantial.

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Sometimes.
All right, Next up on our list

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is Gregory of Nasiensis.
I love that place.

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00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,960
I've been, I've been there a
couple times, wrote some hymns

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00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,000
defending the Nicene orthodoxy.
So you see a trend here.

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00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,480
They're kind of motivated by
this theology to get it right,

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00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,840
use poetry to articulate the
Trinitarian theology.

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00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,920
So both these guys so far are
really trying to use hymns to

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00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,960
help shape the doctrine of the
congregants.

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00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,160
Yeah, and his next guy, Ephraim
the Syrian, kind of moved it to

250
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:20,360
that mode.
You mentioned it earlier,

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00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,800
catechesis, catechism, that his
songs kept teaching doctrine

252
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,320
through things like metaphor,
repetition, beauty, and and we

253
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,560
just kind of keep building and
building and building where most

254
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,720
of these hymns or a lot of these
hymns would revolve around

255
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,600
things like the Trinity, Christ,
divinity, and humanity.

256
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,080
Things that were going on in the
culture.

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00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,520
They were made so they could be
memorized easily, very

258
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:46,560
repetitive, accessible, meant to
be sung in community and in this

259
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:50,200
kind of maybe this catechism
idea often got this like a call

260
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,160
and response kind of sing method
to it.

261
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:54,720
It's like, is he worthy?
But.

262
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:55,960
That's a call and response.
That's right.

263
00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,320
Yeah, so hopefully kind of a
summary of the what we've seen.

264
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,880
We see these songs are teaching
that we're, but they're kind of

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00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,680
even weaponized against some
heresies of the day to to combat

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00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:13,520
those.
And the pastors use those for

267
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,160
formation and their
congregation.

268
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,600
And like we said, corporate
worship.

269
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,680
So it's not just hearing someone
singing or teaching a song, but

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00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,440
we're all going to sing
together.

271
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,400
Yeah.
Are there any places other than

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00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,000
the church that you would say
you're we'll just leave it to

273
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,360
Americans?
Yeah.

274
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,680
Get together and sing.
Corporately, the only thing I

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00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,600
can think about is like a sports
game, you know what I mean?

276
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,400
Like you get and you sing like a
fight song or you sing a chance

277
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:40,680
of sort and it's different.
But.

278
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,440
Yeah, I'm trying to think like
where else there would be like.

279
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,360
Yeah, maybe some popular songs
that they play and everyone

280
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,080
starts singing them more.
Yeah, that's right. 7th inning

281
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,280
stretch, maybe.
Yeah, Take Me Out to the

282
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,440
ballpark.
Yeah, those kind of things.

283
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:53,960
Yeah, you're not.
Really doing a lot of yeah.

284
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,120
There's not a not a lot of
options here.

285
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,480
We're going to move on into the
medieval area where everything

286
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,720
the dark ages because no one
knew anything, right?

287
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:04,560
I'm just kidding.
If you've been listening at all,

288
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,520
you know, and you know, Michael
in particular, you know, gotta

289
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,120
get Aquinas and all this stuff
there.

290
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,520
There are some there are some
bright spots in the medieval

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00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,280
era.
We're looking at the 9th through

292
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,440
the 15th centuries and we see
this shifts as the church became

293
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,160
more institutionalized, worship
move towards being conducted in

294
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,840
Latin.
You think of this era, you think

295
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,280
of monasteries, this kind of
thing, the clergy, clerical

296
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,280
leadership performance where you
do have this performative aspect

297
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,840
on one hand.
And the congregation that are

298
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,520
almost like spectators, they're
not participating.

299
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,880
And I think even if they are
participating, they might be

300
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:40,920
like, I don't know what I'm
doing.

301
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,320
And so you can see how that
would change the dynamic quite a

302
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,880
bit.
So you want me to take this next

303
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:47,160
one?
Go.

304
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:48,840
Go for it.
You, you want me to get there?

305
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,200
You go.
Yes, that's what I was looking

306
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,520
for.
All right.

307
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,480
So we see the birth of the
Gregorian chant.

308
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,560
Yeah.
Theologically rich, musically

309
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,520
sophisticated.
They emphasize the transcendence

310
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,280
and reverence.
And you kind of get that from

311
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,240
the musical style, kind of has
that emotion laden with it.

312
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:11,920
But you're going to have to be
trained.

313
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,760
It's not going to be something
you can just come in and sing.

314
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,240
And so it's like limited
congregational involvement.

315
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,680
So you think that we have an
entertainment issue here today

316
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,280
with, you know, art, But this
was yeah, it.

317
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,120
It's funny moving through these
different eras and you kind of

318
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,160
see, you know, what tracks with
today, what doesn't?

319
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,400
You've all probably walked into
that service where it's like,

320
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,400
this is entirely too high.
I'm not gonna be able to sing

321
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,760
this or that kind of thing.
Or you walk in, it's like, oh,

322
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,600
all the lights are on the stage.
Everything else is dark.

323
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,440
It's, it's almost like this like
you're, you know, not saying all

324
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,960
that is, is bad necessarily, but
you can see like when it is

325
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,240
performative versus engaging and
there's different ways you can

326
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,800
do it and nothing's perfect.
And, you know, think about, do

327
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,280
we have choirs?
Do we not have choirs?

328
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,480
All these things?
Do we have a band?

329
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:03,480
Do we not have a band?
Do.

330
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,400
We let females sing or not.
That's right.

331
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,200
Is it like one person in the
middle?

332
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:08,800
The band to the side is the
whole band.

333
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,440
On this day.
It's like, there's a lot of ways

334
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,680
you can go with this, right?
Yeah.

335
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,880
All right.
So a little bit of irony here.

336
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,240
Hymns were preserved with great
care.

337
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,160
The theology remained intact,
but worship became less

338
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,040
accessible to your average
believer because of this

339
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,840
performative aspect of it.
And, and you also think of like

340
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,880
this Latin stuff, Latin and
stuff.

341
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,040
It's probably not as much as in
those days, but you know, I

342
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,160
could see like a newish believer
singing some hymns And you're

343
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,000
like, I don't know what this
word means.

344
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:41,400
Like, oh, there's like a little
bit of it.

345
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,440
And it's like still English not
that long ago.

346
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,760
But things to think about as
you're engaging in worship.

347
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,640
And I always love it when a
worship leader might be like,

348
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:50,920
this is a weird phrase.
We're gonna sing the song.

349
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,360
This is what it means.
And it's like you kind of like

350
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,240
bring the people into it, you
know, But we're gonna transition

351
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,880
into the Reformation, which you
might think, man, all the reform

352
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:04,200
folks against the Catholics.
This is great, but there's a

353
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,200
little bit of disagreement
within the Reform community,

354
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,480
right?
the Reformation, they kind of

355
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,960
asked this very important
question, who is worship for?

356
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,600
And then a follow up question,
how does God teach his people?

357
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,880
So I'll start with Martin
Luther, the strong willed guy,

358
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,400
very strong advocate for hymns.
He was a big, big into music.

359
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,920
Believe music was a gift from
God for proclaiming the gospel.

360
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,040
We're all probably familiar with
a mighty fortress is our God.

361
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,480
It is kind of like a strong.
We had a comment about like

362
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,080
strong hymns.
This is a strong hymn which not

363
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,920
to make a too much of an aside,
but I would love to do he he

364
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,440
made the connection of it seems
like once World War Two hit.

365
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,320
Softened up.
Softened up, you know, when it

366
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,880
it and I I think there's a lot
of truth to that where you can

367
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,600
kind of see things change a lot
in in America where it's like,

368
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,680
man, that that's interesting to
explore.

369
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,520
Yeah, and I was even thinking I
did not put this one on the

370
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,520
list.
Eternal Father strong to save

371
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,120
it.
It's it's like a prayer for all

372
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,600
those in harm's way.
And I, it's a good to him, but

373
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,400
it's, it's a little bit on the
meek side.

374
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,920
It's not like we're going to go,
you know, do something.

375
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,280
It's like, hey, there's people
out in harm's way to pray for

376
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,400
them, be, be with them.
So I was like, is it, I mean,

377
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,040
it's, it's a kind of about a
masculine subject, but it's not

378
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,800
from a masculine point of view.
It's almost written for the

379
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,880
women back at home to pray for
their their men that are out in

380
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,360
harm's way.
Yeah, it is so, so, so

381
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,440
interesting.
Like I made a Really good point.

382
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,600
I forget what his name was like
his his handle, but.

383
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,160
Yeah, I don't.
Remember, maybe maybe one day we

384
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,320
can explore that a little more.
But back back to Martin Luther,

385
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,720
he emphasized things like
congregational scene.

386
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,240
Let's get the congregation
involved.

387
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,880
Let's use the common language.
Let's speak speaking the

388
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,600
people's vernacular.
And then let's get back to this

389
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,000
catechesis.
Like not only are we gonna sing

390
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,440
what they can understand, we
want to use it as a teaching

391
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,240
tool where they're very
connected, very engaged.

392
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,120
He would say something like.
Music hymns are sermons for the

393
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,760
mouth, which is pretty cool.
It's good.

394
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,120
All right.
So that was one kind of prong of

395
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,520
the fork.
The other one is John Calvin

396
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,040
setting up in Geneva, performed
Psalm only singing.

397
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,360
And if you listen to our last
episode, you would have heard

398
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:21,480
that.
And he was really concerned

399
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,640
about doctrinal drift because,
you know, if you look back at

400
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,640
the Roman Catholic Church, I
think you could say somewhere

401
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,000
around 800 or stuff around there
6-7 hundred 800, and that you

402
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,560
start to see that doctrinal
drift.

403
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,600
So you can kind of be like,
yeah, I can understand what his

404
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,840
viewpoint.
And he was concerned about our

405
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,000
human creativity kind of
overshadowing what the words

406
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,000
were saying.
So let's say it.

407
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,240
Let's just get back to the words
of God.

408
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,720
So good, good emphasis there.
Emphasize reverence, simplicity,

409
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,280
scriptural purity in what he
wanted to do.

410
00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:00,560
So you can see how that that's
all good things, but you know,

411
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,360
if we're talking about like
Isaac Watts, you're going to, if

412
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:05,880
you're true and only Psalms,
you're going to miss some of the

413
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,720
truths that are later revealed.
And so you kind of got the two

414
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,680
paths that that emerge from this
Reformed tradition, the Psalm

415
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,320
only churches, exclusive
psalmody or Psalm plus hymn

416
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,800
churches, both really trying to
be faithful.

417
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,160
We kind of talked about the
rationale, but it kind of

418
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,400
manifest expresses itself a
little bit differently.

419
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,240
And that leads us up to the
1700s, really through like the

420
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,600
1900s, at least the early 1900s
where it's the golden age of

421
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,920
hymns.
Yeah, through the 1900s.

422
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,920
If you ask anyone's grandparent,
it's like, man, give, give me

423
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,640
the hymns.
You know, you go to any nursing

424
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,960
home, long term care living,
assisted living people, people

425
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,040
just want to hear the hymns,
man.

426
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,960
You know.
So hymns flourished in this era

427
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,320
because it was coming out of
this theological clarity of the

428
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,680
post Reformation where doctrine
again was like, we need to know

429
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,560
this stuff.
So we, you know, we, we stay on

430
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,200
the right path.
We don't have to break away.

431
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,040
Put it in.
The looks of the common people.

432
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,960
And people have to be able to
read scripture and sing

433
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,920
scripture.
And, and so there's this

434
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,640
emphasis on personal faith,
conversion, assurance of

435
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,160
salvation.
All these things are kind of,

436
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,480
you know, coming, coming
together and more and more, you

437
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,560
know, for better or for worse.
I think we also see you have

438
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,800
Catholicism, this big
institution, and it starts

439
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,880
becoming more personalized where
you know, which in some ways is

440
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,640
good, you start owning things,
but other ways you can get all

441
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,040
these little splinter groups as
well.

442
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,880
You know all.
Right, some key figures of this

443
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,840
golden era I'm looking through
here.

444
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,280
I'm surprised Fanny Crosby
didn't make the list.

445
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,280
Yeah, but Isaac Watts already
talked about.

446
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,080
So he was kind of the father of
where where we aren't seeing

447
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,680
Christ.
And so he, you know, kind of

448
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,160
really pushed our modern hymnody
and he wrote hymns that

449
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,160
paraphrase Scripture, but he
wasn't afraid to go, OK, here's

450
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,400
an illusion of Christ.
Let's make that explicit.

451
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,880
And you see that like enjoy the
world or or the wherever the.

452
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,880
Sun may shine.
That's exactly right.

453
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,640
Charles Wesley wrote a ton of
hymns.

454
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,360
He he really was more on the
experiential side.

455
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:11,920
What?
What's the lived experience of

456
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,240
salvation?
You know, we have theology, but

457
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,200
we're bringing some emotion into
it as well.

458
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,800
And then John Newton kind of
trying to balance both of these

459
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,080
things.
We'll talk a lot about grace,

460
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,120
You know, we know John Newton's
hymns, repentance,

461
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,440
sanctification, where we're
staying very grounded to the

462
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,720
these themes.
But in a way that is, you know,

463
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,760
maybe you don't like hymns.
They are very emotional, you

464
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,520
know what I mean?
Like they, like they, they, they

465
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,800
jump into this a lot, you know
all.

466
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:39,360
Right.
So some characteristics of those

467
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,920
hymns of the Golden Age, deeply
biblical.

468
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,280
They are theologically dense.
So if you read Hearth, the

469
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,240
Herald angels Sing, Yeah, it's
fairly theologically dense

470
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,840
stuff.
You hope you probably have some

471
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,720
memorized.
I have some memorized because

472
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,560
they're kind of memorable things
so much.

473
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,600
There's like more continuity
with hymns than and today.

474
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,200
Like a good song comes out every
year and it's it's kind of hard

475
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,000
to keep up in the same way with
hymns.

476
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,120
It's like, man, I mean, most of
us know at least the first and

477
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:12,240
the last verse in a lot of these
hymns.

478
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,280
Maybe some of the middle ones we
don't, but you know, it's like

479
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,840
you're singing and the last
whatever you.

480
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Know hymns are musically less
complex than what you would have

481
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,040
gotten from the Catholic Church,
so they're easier to sing now.

482
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,440
I think they're probably more
complex than our modern day

483
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,360
contemporary Christian music,
but they were it.

484
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,560
They were less complex.
So they put it more in the

485
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,160
everyday person's ability to
sing.

486
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,480
They functioned as this
doctrinal instruction and

487
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,440
confessions of faith.
And really they were used by the

488
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,560
pastors as tools of spiritual
formation.

489
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,320
You know, stand up, you know,
oh, Church of God.

490
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,160
Yeah, it's so easy, like
nothing.

491
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,480
But the blood, like there's,
it's like, it's amazing just how

492
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,440
ubiquitous this kind of thing
was across like denominations

493
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,000
across a lot of this.
I guess it's similar with songs

494
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,160
now, which is interesting.
I just feel like you ask any

495
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,120
like person over 70 and it's
like man they'll have like 5

496
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:15,080
hymns locked and loaded.
Some that we don't know, yeah.

497
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,920
Exactly.
Well, let let's talk a little

498
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,840
more.
Why did the church embrace

499
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,200
hymns?
What was the theological

500
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,480
rationale?
We mentioned a little bit of it,

501
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,320
but but you, you say any of
these hymns, you know, most of

502
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,240
them are very explicit in, in
terms of their Christology

503
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,000
Christology where there's a lot
about the cross, like every hymn

504
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,280
talks about the cross, grace,
resurrection, redemption.

505
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,760
You know, in this catechesis
mindset that you, you can learn

506
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,400
a lot of doctrine without
reading a systematic theology

507
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,080
book.
You know, you can really pick up

508
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,520
on, on a lot of good stuff.
The congregation congregation

509
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,320
just love hymns.
That's what I, you know what I

510
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:53,520
mean?
I just, I just feel like like

511
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,840
older, it's like you're very
involved, like the hymn book.

512
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,840
You have like 800 hymns and you
know, you're always like picking

513
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,200
out your hymns, that kind of
thing.

514
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,120
And and so, and anyway, it's
one, one of those things.

515
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,960
It's like when I was a kid, I
didn't did not love hymns.

516
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,200
I loved it because I was a music
guy.

517
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,440
So I would, you know, get there
and I would, you know, sing the

518
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,600
bass part for sure.
But that, that's the thing I've

519
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,600
appreciated more as I've gotten
like older.

520
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,000
I'm like, oh, I kind of miss
like it's really hard just

521
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,880
winging a new song versus like,
at least I'm not good at music,

522
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,760
but at least you can kind of
know where it's going versus

523
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,640
like, maybe we're holding this
out or not 'cause every now and

524
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,000
then a song will be like the
last word on a phrase means

525
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,400
nothing.
It's gonna bleed right into the

526
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:35,840
next one.
You're like, I don't know what

527
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,960
to do.
It's very hard.

528
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that we're probably

529
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,840
talking about some of what we're
gonna talk about in the next

530
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,320
section and the decline of
hymns.

531
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:51,560
But yeah, you as a song leader,
I am sensitive to not giving the

532
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,600
congregation a whole bunch of
new songs, especially in one

533
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,720
single sermon.
And if I do introduce a new

534
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,120
song, I try to say, hey, we're
going to introduce a new song

535
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,160
before, like maybe even the
Wednesday before.

536
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,720
And so I put it on our groove.
Like you can be listening to it

537
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,960
and thinking of it and kind of
getting it into your to your

538
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,160
mind.
That's good.

539
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,120
Yep.
So kind of rounding out this

540
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:17,680
period, the hymns also, you
know, shape your affections,

541
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,280
help you think about, you know
what I love, what I what I drawn

542
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:27,760
to when I survey the wonders
cross were whole nature mine.

543
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,400
That would be a gift far too
small.

544
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,840
Like you just have these great
word pictures in there and

545
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,200
emotion flowed from truth.
It was grounded there instead

546
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,600
of, you know, replacing truth.
It wasn't just about emotion for

547
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,880
emotion's sake.
Yeah, that, that's the trick.

548
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,200
It's almost I feel like you're
more hard pressed today to

549
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,880
really get strong doctrine
because I think people are just

550
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,400
like afraid They're like, Oh, I
can say Jesus, I'll say

551
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,040
resurrection, but I don't like
develop these a whole lot

552
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,520
because then you, I don't know,
it gets hard to understand or

553
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,240
maybe you like start splitting
hairs too much.

554
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,840
I don't.
Know we need a song that talks

555
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:08,560
about you know well, I can't
think of the word that's when

556
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,280
you're justification yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah sanctification, you

557
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,640
know glorification and then
adoption like maybe a verse that

558
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,160
deals with each one of those
different parts yeah, you.

559
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,960
Hit you hit all all of that.
Well, you know good things can't

560
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,280
last forever.
Hymns had to decline.

561
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,560
You'll get the late late 19th
and mid 20th century and you

562
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,640
know hymns were on the way out.
Unless you're an independent

563
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,120
Fundamental Baptist Church than
they were.

564
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:35,720
They might be still coming
strong to me.

565
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,520
Yeah.
And it's, I think if you're

566
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,840
tracking musically, there was
this, you know, not to call the

567
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,880
Gaithers out, but, you know,
Gaithers wrote songs that were

568
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,040
kind of like.
Hymns, but they were.

569
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,200
Kind of contemporary.
So you start to see this

570
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,520
evolution of of not just like
this four part Fanny Crosby

571
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,320
song.
It's more stylistic.

572
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,120
And then you can see that kind
of evolve into more of what we

573
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,120
would consider a modern, you
know, spiritual song or, you

574
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,240
know, what do we call those what
we call it?

575
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,480
I don't, I don't know, I'm
blanking.

576
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,120
But no, that, no, that that
that's good.

577
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,800
And I think, you know, it kind
of dovetails where where culture

578
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,320
was going faster pace of life
preference for immediacy of

579
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,720
brevity.
We can see that's continuing

580
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,360
into today's culture just kind
of keeps on going.

581
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,920
Revivalism was this shift from
doctrinal depth to emotional

582
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,560
response.
And you kind of see this bridge

583
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,120
everything here where it's like
really, you know, I don't know,

584
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,280
it's kind of like in in the
culture we have revivals,

585
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,760
evangelists, all these things.
And I think all this stuff kind

586
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,320
of goes together.
We see that in hymns, but then

587
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,880
you kind of see it as we
transition out of it.

588
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,160
And hymns at the end of the day
are kind of like, oh, they're so

589
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,200
formal, they're so outdated,
they're so stiff.

590
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,360
They're not.
They just don't seem modern and

591
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,240
and eventually kind of fade over
time.

592
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,960
All right.
Next phase, the praise and

593
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:04,240
contemporary worship era, kind
of 1960s to present.

594
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,200
We probably blame Elvis Presley
for this, but you kind of see

595
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,160
music across our whole culture
changing.

596
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,960
And so probably in an effort to
keep up with that, we've also

597
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,560
changed it so we get our praise
and worship movement influenced

598
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,800
by some of our charismatic
friends and the Kind.

599
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,800
Of yeah, even today, like when
you say all the kind of leading

600
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,240
songwriters, I feel like it is
those on the charismatic side

601
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,760
where you think like Bethel,
Elevation, Hillsong.

602
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,040
It just seems like that's like
the people that are producing

603
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,800
like songs that are super
popular.

604
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,200
Yep, them and like we said,
Elvis like popular folk music,

605
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,800
you know, you hear different
type of music, you go, you know,

606
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,560
that kind of stretches what you
like in music and go, we could

607
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,440
probably write some Christian
words to music like this.

608
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,880
No, I I think that's good.
I think someone's got a bad rap

609
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,160
is the repetition.
I feel like some of these Chris

610
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,440
Tomlin just knows how to take a
chorus and make it go a million

611
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,640
times.
The worst one ever was I could

612
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,480
sing of your love forever
because I think that they wanted

613
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,840
to make simulate like you were
singing of his love forever

614
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,440
'cause that line would repeat.
I remember it seemed like for 5

615
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,600
minutes I could sing of your
love forever, I could sing of

616
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,160
your love forever, and then that
would just repeat and repeat.

617
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,840
Talk about repetition.
A lot of it revolved around

618
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,160
emotional accessibility,
intimacy with God.

619
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,960
So focus on some good things.
Maybe it could be at the expense

620
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,720
of other good things.
And, you know, you're trying to

621
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,960
balance the pendulum and can run
so much on this where, you know,

622
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,640
you also hear the the criticism.
It's like, are we singing about

623
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,640
God or a girlfriend or what are
we doing?

624
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:44,640
You know, it's like, you know
what I mean?

625
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,720
Like, yeah, yeah.
You hear this kind of thing.

626
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,720
So eventually songwriters
replaced hymn writers, band LED

627
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,440
worship that that kind of
becomes the norm.

628
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,480
And you know, like we could have
a very conservative church.

629
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,480
Like I'm sure I don't, I don't
know when the change happened,

630
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,800
but I'm sure it was like weird
or it's like where I.

631
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Can have a guitar.
Or drums.

632
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Yeah, that's probably.
Just like.

633
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,760
Yeah, it's like little things
like that.

634
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,760
And now it's like no one cares
about drums.

635
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,760
But 20 years ago, people really
cared about drums a lot.

636
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,760
More.
It's actually kind of funny.

637
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,160
It's kind of crazy, like how
much the same people won't Care

638
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,680
now, but they care 20 years.
Ago or go man, it seemed like a

639
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,560
little flat today.
We didn't have drums, we didn't

640
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,280
have a drummer today.
So you didn't feel the the beat.

641
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,480
So you just get.
You just get velocitized to.

642
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:38,040
It I I feel like I remember it
like Satan uses like syncopation

643
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,640
is just like that that is like
Satans weapon.

644
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,880
Like that's like, like, I don't
know, I've heard these things.

645
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,080
I have heard I went to this a
conference on the evils of rock

646
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,400
music Amen.
And it talked about, you know,

647
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,800
how putting the bass drum on 2
and 4 was wrong and kind of goes

648
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,000
along that syncopation thing
because it's not on the strong

649
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,680
beat.
So it's, you know, uplifting the

650
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,760
weak stuff.
And then it was all about, you

651
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:07,120
know, the, the bass, like the
bass guitar and how it could

652
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,120
injure your internal organs and
stuff.

653
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,920
And it was.
It was all over the place.

654
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,640
Well, on on top, on top.
That's so funny.

655
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,480
Some of that stuff.
Songs became shorter theology

656
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,480
and more simpler the language
more effective, more emotional

657
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,760
and relatable.
On the positive side, much more

658
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,200
accessible.
You do have that emotional

659
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,840
engagement and you know, it's
quote UN quote fitting in with

660
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,560
the culture where it's not, you
know, so stiff and wooden and

661
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,800
and old school.
But on the negative side, maybe

662
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,360
the doctrinal robustness is not
there.

663
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,080
It comes off shallow.
It's more individualistic.

664
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,560
It's not corporate and worship
is more of like a vibe, an

665
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,800
atmosphere, you know, and, and
there are problems with that

666
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,480
where you can see people kind of
drift.

667
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,880
Yeah.
So where does that leave us

668
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,760
today?
I think you can go to 10

669
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,600
different churches and get 10
different worship singing

670
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,720
experiences because there's a
lot of different options out

671
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,840
there.
And even churches that are kind

672
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,120
of would be in the same option
might do things slightly

673
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,600
differently.
So you could have, you know, we

674
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,840
have a, what we call a blended
service.

675
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,480
You're going to get some hymns,
You're going to get some praise

676
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,800
and worship songs.
We try to get the best of both

677
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,040
worlds so that we are, you know,
like we talked about in our

678
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,920
episode with Tim, that we are
helping connect the heart and

679
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:34,360
the mind as we sing forward.
But you're going to find your

680
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,239
Psalm only churches that they're
out there.

681
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,719
You're going to find some people
that are like hymns only, and

682
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,440
then it's funny what they define
as a him, like his eyes on

683
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,360
Sparrow as a him.
And you can.

684
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,080
You can see that all over the
place.

685
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,199
No, that, that that's like so
good too.

686
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:56,800
And it, I think maybe this is
more popular a little 1020 years

687
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,360
ago, but I, I think it's a, it
can be a mistake when people are

688
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,040
like, Hey, we're going to have
the him traditional service and

689
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,360
then the contemporary service.
Because then I'm like, man, are

690
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,120
we just like artificial
artificially segregating our

691
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,760
church?
Is that weird to keep the older

692
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,160
people here and the younger
people there?

693
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,720
Like I feel like that's what
other segregation.

694
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:18,520
Would be good do everything for
Unity's sake, right?

695
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,920
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, man, if you can

696
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,320
combine them, great.
And it's like, man, if you have

697
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,680
to separate them, it's just
like, it'd be weird to be like,

698
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,160
hey, here's a sermon just for, I
don't know, it's like it's weird

699
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,520
when you break up the church in
that way based on some of those

700
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,640
preferences.
I know, I know there's good

701
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,680
reasons behind it, but that it's
just like, why would you do

702
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:39,760
that?
You know, a lot of churches do

703
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,640
that and people like it.
People like, I know I can get my

704
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,560
music that I want.
It's very, you know, consumer

705
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,000
driven.
And it's like, you can get your

706
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:45,680
stuff at church.
That's.

707
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:50,400
Great, selfless and caring for
one another, you know, and

708
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,360
stirring one another up.
I can just get what I.

709
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,000
Want everything handed to me.
No, I, I, I, I think, I think

710
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,280
that's good.
But you're right, everyone

711
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,240
churches, even if you're saying
I want to go to a conservative

712
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:02,120
church, you're going to get much
different experience everywhere,

713
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:02,880
right?
Yeah, yeah.

714
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,440
So Psalm only, hymn only,
contemporary only.

715
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,680
Like, you know, just the concert
or you can have some blend of

716
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,840
that.
But I think comes down to one

717
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,440
question that we should be
asking, you know, what is

718
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,760
worship about?
And you should, especially if

719
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,400
you're in a leadership role,
it's hard if you're a congregate

720
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,840
in the the seat, maybe you
could, you know, humbly, you

721
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,760
know, bring some concerns to
your leadership.

722
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,960
But if you're in leadership,
this is something you should

723
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,920
really be evaluating.
Like, are we, you know, focused

724
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,840
on transmitting the truth of our
faith in a way that is

725
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,320
authentically emotional?
Because there's nothing wrong

726
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,400
with emotions and worship, but
you don't want them to be

727
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,400
contrived.
You want them to just be ginned

728
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,480
up.
And so you you need to ask those

729
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,400
questions.
No, I, I think it's good.

730
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,720
Just be, be intentional.
I think even going through the

731
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:56,400
survey, you can kind of see
strengths, weaknesses, pros,

732
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,640
cons like where, where does your
church land?

733
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,600
You know, how does worship
affect you?

734
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,480
But I like, I like it.
This is this is rounding out our

735
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,600
worship series.
I think so, unless you have

736
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,600
another one you know up your
sleeves.

737
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,280
We'll see.
I don't think I do, but you

738
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,280
know, I, I feel like I, I
learned a little bit through

739
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,800
this.
I was good, Tim kicking us off

740
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,200
and we could run with it a
little bit.

741
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,080
So just a quick recap.
Yeah, we talked about from the

742
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:26,800
very beginning kind of bridging
that Judaism to Christianity.

743
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:34,000
Then we had the rise of the
hymns as the Roman, you know, it

744
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,040
was legalized.
Then we got into the Middle Ages

745
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,200
and we started to see it getting
more like what you might hear,

746
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,600
you know, at, at a concert,
really.

747
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,960
And then the Reformation, 2
prongs, hymns only with Martin

748
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,080
Luther, Psalms only with John
Calvin.

749
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,040
Then Isaac Watts came in and
kind of broke that up.

750
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,480
And we had our golden ages of
hymns leading into that and then

751
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,320
slowly went into our praise and
worship that we see today.

752
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:07,640
Yeah.
There you have it.

753
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,640
That's the survey of worship
through the years.

754
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,760
Thanks for hanging in there with
us.

755
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,320
That's our take.
Sweet you.

756
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,240
Don't want to talk about cold
weather?

757
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,320
Oh yeah, I totally forgot our
final take final.

758
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,640
Wow man, I just got off there.
Should we just roll into it?

759
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:27,560
Yeah.
Just roll into it.

760
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,080
Yeah, you can just say I'm an
idiot.

761
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,280
Yeah, that's great.
That's good.

762
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,840
We have had cold weather.
School's closed today.

763
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,880
Treasure, we need to have our
schools closed today.

764
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,920
It probably was good to close
church Sunday because it was

765
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,600
still an icy Sunday morning.
This is why America will finish

766
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,920
last.
This is why I might have said

767
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:46,640
this before.
I've heard this.

768
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,960
It's hilarious.
It's like China kind of deserves

769
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,280
the win.
All their kids are playing

770
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,520
violin and getting tutored and
we're just like saying it's old.

771
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,600
It was cold the other day.
No school.

772
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,720
You know, you'll get the average
drive of the American.

773
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:01,920
You're like, I don't know if we
should do good as a.

774
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,280
Nation, I think well for, well,
I would say for our school and

775
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,280
probably with the other public
schools, we kind of build in

776
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,440
some extra days for hurricanes
and we didn't take any of those

777
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,360
this year.
So they probably, you could say,

778
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,200
hey, out of, you know, out of
abundance of caution, it's

779
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,960
probably going to be mostly
dried up and stuff.

780
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,080
But we didn't use a hurricane
day.

781
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,240
So just out of abundance of
caution, we're going to take my

782
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:28,320
day off.
Just take it.

783
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,280
Just take it off.
Yeah, Yeah.

784
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,000
No, no pipes burst or anything
for you.

785
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000
You're good.
It got really cold like down in

786
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,600
the 20s, maybe 19.
It's crazy in the teens, high

787
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,320
teens for us.
I don't like it being that cold.

788
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,440
I am when, you know, we duck
hunt in that type of weather,

789
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,240
but you get layers and layers.
So you're not you and you're not

790
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,840
normally I don't get cold until
I'm like standing around a lot.

791
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,640
But like when you're first
setting up, there's a lot of

792
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,200
movement, so you build up that
internal.

793
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:00,840
Oh yeah, I get rolling a little
bit.

794
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,160
I did go to my closet and.
Oh, you went to your closet?

795
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,840
I got.
Yeah, I got out our, like, coat

796
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,440
closet and dug up some cold
weather gear.

797
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,360
Pats, Scar Pats.
We called them toboggans girl.

798
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,400
We call them toboggans too.
OK, Yeah, that's not that

799
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,320
resonates with me.
Yeah.

800
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,600
Yeah.
I don't think my I don't, I

801
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,560
don't think Leanne gets that.
She's like a tobogging.

802
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,040
You have to sled and I'm like.
Yeah, I know it's a sled, but

803
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,640
even my Michigan family called
it that.

804
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,720
So it's not just a South
southern thing.

805
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:34,360
I don't know.
And my Pat's toboggan and I wore

806
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,200
that into Walmart into last
night.

807
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,560
I think it was last night 2.
Mistakes you wore pack your and

808
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,760
you went to Walmart.
Wow, over 2.

809
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,440
So I'm walking in and there's
this guy walking out and like

810
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,720
friendly.
And I noticed before he notices

811
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:51,000
me, he's wearing like a Steelers
coat, Steelers hat.

812
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,240
And he looks at me and he's
like.

813
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,440
And then he, just like his whole
expression, changes.

814
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,240
He probably thought you were
spying on me.

815
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:02,200
I thought you were cheating.
He probably was like, I'm

816
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,240
getting out of before I get like
cheating.

817
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,680
Oh, there's this this big guy in
line, he didn't have the exact

818
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,640
same toboggan, but he had a Pats
toboggan on too.

819
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,560
And we just fist bumped and he's
like one more game, one more

820
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:15,880
game.
I was like, yeah, it's good.

821
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,600
So yeah.
You were like, let's let's get

822
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,560
accused of some all.
We should talk about Bill

823
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,280
Belichick.
What a not a first belt Hall of

824
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,240
Famer that's.
What I've always said, would you

825
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,440
say?
Not a first belt Hall of Famer.

826
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,560
I've always said that myself,
Belichick, you know, but it

827
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,760
makes you think how much should,
I'm not saying it should, but

828
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:40,960
how much should like being like
you might be a hard worker and

829
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,640
competent, successful, but if
people like don't like you, like

830
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:51,160
you just rub everyone the wrong
way or are constantly accused of

831
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,560
cheating even maybe you're doing
everything totally above board.

832
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,400
How that can affect you?
Yeah, it can affect you.

833
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,920
Clearly it affected him now.
On paper he is obviously great

834
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,000
coach, one of the best and it's.
Like some would argue the best.

835
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,400
Yeah.
On paper.

836
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,960
On, on, on paper, Yeah, yeah,
yeah.

837
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,280
So it's it's interesting that
you can be that good, but just

838
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,120
your relationships, you're so
poor with others.

839
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,880
Yeah, I, I guess it's your.
I don't know.

840
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,640
I wouldn't say his relationships
are poor with everyone, I don't

841
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,600
think.
Yeah, yeah, the story that has

842
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,720
come out is this Poland guy.
I didn't even I, I, I really

843
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,320
didn't tune into the NFL until
20 tens.

844
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:36,040
So yeah, I was kind of watched
some, but I was not like

845
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,680
tracking it not.
And there by all means there are

846
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,720
people who track it even more
than I do today.

847
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:43,320
So I'm not saying that this
might, but I'm saying I'm really

848
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,480
paying attention.
Started, you know, 2010.

849
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,520
So it just wasn't a huge thing
growing up.

850
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,400
I was in to band to, you know,
even when I played football, I

851
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,360
wasn't like watching NFL, you
know what I'm saying?

852
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,640
Yeah, Yeah.
So.

853
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,560
But apparently there was this
guy that was with the Giants,

854
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:00,560
maybe for.
Something I can't.

855
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,920
Remember.
And then the Colts and just

856
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:09,960
couldn't stand Bill.
The word is that he instigated

857
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,440
some of the the negative press
on Bill even while he was

858
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,200
coaching.
So interesting talking about the

859
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:22,680
guy that used to coach the
Steelers and Jerry Johnson.

860
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,200
The guy used to coach.
They were on some talk show and

861
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,160
they're both saying, yeah, the,
the Spygate, we all did that.

862
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,240
We don't know why.
Like Bill got highlighted for

863
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,400
this and some people are in the
comments like, well, why didn't

864
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,040
you say that back in the day?
Yeah, it is.

865
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,000
It is weird that like yeah, that
if it's so common, like why were

866
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,120
they the only one that got
penalized and why did it's

867
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,680
interesting that it wouldn't got
leaked that any other team did

868
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:50,360
it or you know what?
I.

869
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:56,160
Mean And there was also just
there was also a very long news

870
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,800
article that detailed all these
things that Bill had done and

871
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,920
his fines.
And then like a year later, the

872
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,680
same publication they just hid.
Like we retract this news

873
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,880
article.
Like it wasn't even like parts

874
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,240
of it, like we retract it in
full.

875
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,240
So it's like, it's very weird.
It is a strange situation

876
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,200
because it was like that's all
people talked about.

877
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,200
Like it just weird that like
none of this it's like so under

878
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,240
the radar and then I don't
understand the voting, how they

879
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,400
do Hall of Fame stuff because
it's like.

880
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:36,000
Apparently you get 3 votes and
there's people that like first

881
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:41,120
get in there and like you have a
window to get enough votes.

882
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,920
And then if you fall out of that
window then there's like a

883
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,400
special seniors Commission who
can go back and look at people

884
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,240
that for some reason didn't get
in.

885
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:51,800
But like everyone agrees they
should get in and then that

886
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,560
takes something special to get
them in that way.

887
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,960
So some of the people have been
like, I assumed Bill was going

888
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,360
to get it and I'm trying to save
these these 3 senior coaches I

889
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,040
feel like also deserved it,
which I think is somewhat

890
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,840
reasonable.
But it sounds like your system

891
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,480
is flawed.
Yeah, it seems weird.

892
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,640
If it, But not everyone deserves
me in the Hall of Fame.

893
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,200
You know, so that's the problem
that it that, you know,

894
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,360
Basketball Hall of Fame is
pretty like everyone gets in.

895
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,480
It's like not really that
special.

896
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:23,880
Like, I mean, it is special, but
it's like, what are we doing

897
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,320
here?
So I don't, I don't know, but it

898
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,600
is I.
So you're saying, 'cause I'd be

899
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,520
interested, like he didn't get
in because they were trying to

900
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,560
preserve other people or because
people didn't like him, but

901
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:34,600
people might really like.
Him.

902
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,840
Probably combination.
Too 'cause it is so interesting.

903
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,840
Like, how you can just be like,
like, it'd be weird to be like,

904
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,160
hey, we don't like Michael
Jordan, let's not vote him in.

905
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,240
Like, who would say no?
But maybe there'd be enough

906
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:47,360
people.
Who?

907
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,360
That's what people are like.
What, Tom Brady?

908
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,320
Is he not going to be the first,
first year?

909
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,720
Yeah, He's like the most
winningest guy ever.

910
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,000
It is very crazy and it's like,
how do you yeah, I don't know

911
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,240
how they and it's so hard.
It's like you could be like,

912
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,160
what now, I guess, I guess
results matter most importantly.

913
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,920
But it's like you think about
someone like, you know, some of

914
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,200
these players that are so good
that are like not on a great

915
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,560
team.
It's like, man, yeah, you know,

916
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,280
but.
Yeah, you can be a good player

917
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,920
and find yourself on a bad, bad
team or with a bad online.

918
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,600
You know, what's that guy that
was at the Colts, Luck and.

919
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,000
Oh dude, what was his first
name?

920
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,040
Andrew.
Lucky, yeah.

921
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,960
Yeah, it is crazy.
And I even think of like, have

922
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,800
you read these thoughts about
Larry Fitzgerald when he played

923
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,520
for the Cardinals?
Like, great receiver, caught

924
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,960
everything.
He actually has more tackles

925
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,640
than he has drop passes in his
career, which is amazing for a

926
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:42,960
wide receiver that played that
long.

927
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,880
It's like, how do you have more
tackles than than drops?

928
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,600
But if you look at the list of
quarterbacks, it's like just the

929
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,160
worst quarterbacks you've ever.
Seen.

930
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,480
It's like you're like, man, just
get that guy on a good team.

931
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,640
I did see like a print out of
like the recent, like last 20

932
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,520
years Hall of farmers who've
been getting in and the Patriots

933
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,400
are under representative,
underrepresented.

934
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,520
Hey, maybe they should just be
kind to people.

935
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,520
I I do unto others.
Well, I mean, there's like,

936
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:10,400
there's the Kindness Hall of
Fame and the Football Hall of

937
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,640
Fame, you know, which one do
you, which one are we trying to

938
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,560
get people into?
Yeah, it it is interesting that

939
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,080
people have to really like you
have to.

940
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,320
And that is, is the media make
up a lot of the holiday voters

941
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,840
'cause if so, I could cause Bill
Belichick's kind of the worst of

942
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,560
the media.
Yeah, I think there are 100

943
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:27,560
voters.
Is that what I saw?

944
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,120
No, no, no, there's 50.
Voters and then I can get. 40 of

945
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:36,760
those votes and 70%, so you're
talking about so. 3570% of

946
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,000
votes.
No, no, no, 70% of the 50 are

947
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,560
like media people.
Oh, I see.

948
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,320
I.
See, and then the other 30% are

949
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,560
like former coaches or former
players or something.

950
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,840
And you have to, you have to get
80%.

951
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,880
So you have to get 40 votes out
of the 50.

952
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,720
Yeah, maybe I could see media
doing it 'cause it's so

953
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:57,640
interesting.
It's like players feel

954
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,800
differently than media on so
much.

955
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,880
It's like if you go to the NBA
and you like talk about Kobe,

956
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,600
LeBron with players that like
played with Kobe, like LeBron

957
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,240
stats are way better, but
they'll always be like, oh man,

958
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,480
like like they'll always go to
maybe everyone in the media's

959
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,400
like, well, Lebron's got the
longevity, these kind of things.

960
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,320
But it's interesting a player's
perspective versus like media

961
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,280
perspective on some on some of
these things too.

962
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:21,440
I'd be curious to see how
they've.

963
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:22,840
Done that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

964
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,480
And they're like, well, this is
what I saw.

965
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,280
Maybe he did technically win
more, but it's like, man, that

966
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,280
guy just doesn't get it or
doesn't, you know, shit, you

967
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,840
know, I don't know.
But that, yeah, that was great.

968
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,280
When I saw that, I was like,
man, what a what?

969
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:34,800
So.
Good.

970
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,840
Yeah.
Made major Steelers heart proud.

971
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,480
Oh, it's great.
Anything else you got about this

972
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:46,840
cold weather?
Well, no, I, I will say, I mean,

973
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,360
I do have thoughts on cold
weather.

974
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,800
I don't know that the audience
wants to hear my anti global

975
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,560
warming rants.
I'll just say this is our second

976
00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:57,640
year in a row to get snow to
stick on the ground.

977
00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:01,480
And it's not normal global.
It's not normal global warming

978
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,640
is the trend of average global
temperatures and it doesn't

979
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,040
count for individual storms.
I I get all that stuff, but when

980
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,280
you look at the trends, I just
don't think they're there.

981
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,920
Check the data set it.
Yeah, you heard it here.

982
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,560
That's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

983
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,800
TWO.
Find us wherever you find

984
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,280
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

985
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:23,960
video cast.