God Became Man: Why the Incarnation Changes Everything

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So I got my soda can.
Oh, hey, Lacroix.

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Key Lime.
Key Lime is that good?

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Nice, are you a big?
I'm surprised it's not Diet

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Coke.
I did have a diet.

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I thought about bringing the
diet Doctor Pepper over for both

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of us, but I thought that's
probably too much caffeine this

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late in the day.
I don't know, but that's.

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Hey, I might need it in a couple
podcasts from now, but boy was

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your name slandered.
At home groups, Oh yeah, yeah,

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yeah.
By my own children, yeah.

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Yeah.
Yeah, this is great, the Diet

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Coke talk, and I loved it
because you've got so many

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children.
There's enough for, like,

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everyone to be on different
sides.

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And some people are like, hey,
it's not.

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Slightly different takes, yeah,
yeah.

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Yeah, it's good.
Yeah, Karis was whipping out

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facts about, you know, you have
to do this to get to the Yeah,

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she's.
Like you have to have like 100

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or 4000.
You know, I'm just, I'm

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surprised Diet Coke's off the
official drink of the NBA.

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Like, I guess actually it might
be like official soft drink.

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But you know, you don't see Luka
Doncic just down in the he

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probably, he probably should do
some more Diet Coke.

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Feel like he drinks a lot of
sweet tea.

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Yeah, Yeah.
But do you have a water bottle

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of choice or I?
I don't know if it's of choice

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as in I tried many out and and
said this is mine, but we we I

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would guess we kind of lean
Yeti.

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Yeti Yeti is like classic
reliable the.

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The only thing I've found is
that some of our kids like miss

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Thread or tighten the little
classic list.

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So those can kind of the threads
and the top part, the bottom

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part's like hard plastic, but
the top parts are like a softer

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plastic in those.
So we bought like some

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replacement tops from Amazon.
But you know, there we were

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driving.
Well, I drove to church 1 early

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one morning and you've been at
our house.

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I have.
So like as you're leaving and

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there's like that pond and you
turn and there's like a big

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tree.
I was like, oh, there's like a

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pink water bottle or something
there.

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And Jill saw it, and I was like,
oh, that's weird.

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And then she drove back.
She was just like, and and she

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was like, I kind of look like
the same size as Phoebe's.

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Yay.
Oh, yeah.

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And she was like, where is that
one?

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And she walked down there and it
was that one.

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And we don't even know how it
got there if it was on a car and

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got rolled off.
But it took a beating.

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It still works.
Dude, there's something about

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yet.
Like when Yetis came out, I feel

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like they're revolutionary.
Like you really kept your drink

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cold and then you had all these
knockoffs that would do pretty

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good.
But it's I still say Yeti's

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better.
I think Ark tickets, it's like I

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like Yeti better.
When I got my first Yeti, I had

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some water in it and I took a
drink outlet and I took a drink

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later of the day.
I was like, man, this is still

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cold.
And then I don't know what

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happened, but like, sat on the
counter for like maybe two or

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three days and my like, Jill was
like secretly adding ice to it.

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Sneaky.
So that when I when I took a

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drink, I was like, this is still
cold.

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And I started laughing.
Yeah.

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Yeah, honestly I Yeti is still
drink drink from Yeti today.

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That's like one of my go TOS.
Are you familiar with Awala?

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I mean, I've seen you use them,
but I'm not really familiar with

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them.
My, this one's taken a beating.

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My sister loves Awala and maybe
it's.

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Not koala.
It's not Owala.

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Yeah, it's.
Owala owala bear some.

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People have said it's called
this because maybe maybe you

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kind of look like a koala's nose
right here.

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I don't know.
I don't know if that's.

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True or not?
Yeah, I mean, I can see that, I

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don't.
Know where the name comes from?

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My handle is broken off because
I've used this a lot where it's

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got a little handle.
Just just, you know, take a look

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at that bad boy.
Yeah.

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It's fairly light.
I think it's lighter maybe

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compared to what, a Yeti the
same size.

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Yeah, keep.
Things cold.

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It probably doesn't keep things
cold quite as long as a Yeti,

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but it's still still great, you
know?

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It's like a little straw in
there, you know?

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So straw goes down the bottom so
it's on the bottom.

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So you can either test.
Or you can.

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Yes, yeah, suck it out.
It's actually pretty cool and in

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my house it's cool.
This is at you, Vice Principal

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Jonathan White, because I assume
you make all decisions for

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Northwood and this was your your
thing.

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A wall is banned from Northwood.
Banned from Northwood?

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Are yetis banned?
I, I, Jonathan, we've got

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questions we need.
To answer because it's not see

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through.
No, you see that's a that's a

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normal reason see through if
like you're worried about that

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kind of stuff, it's because it's
not spill, spill proof enough.

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Spill proof enough?
Because you yeah, it's pretty

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spill proof, but I I guess kids
have dropped it on the ground

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and it hits the spring and it
opens.

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It and then it says.
Yeah, they they want you to have

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water bottles where you have to
have like a straw that you have

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to like.
Like that crimps down or

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something.
Yeah, or something like that.

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We have to do like, yeah,
exactly.

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But I'm like this is pretty
spill proof.

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Right.
Yeah.

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I mean, you can see how.
No, no, no, no, no.

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Don't take his side.
I'm not taking the side, I'm

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saying there might be.
But but this is the the bigger

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question is water bottle culture
at these schools is out.

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Of control.
I think I saw Mr. White taking

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water bottles away from
students.

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Probably should have.
As I was walking through, I was

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walking through to the class and
then he was talking to people,

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two guys, and then he took water
bottles and he set them down.

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He was like really shook his
head and I was like, oh, someone

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just got in trouble for water
bottle.

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So dude.
So he's on.

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He's on the.
Hunt my, my, my kids.

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And I'm totally kidding,
Jonathan.

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I should, I should, I shouldn't
have said that.

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I should just kept going, 'cause
people think I'm like, I'm just

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angry.
But my kids in their like,

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second and third grade class,
they have like, water, water

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bottle carts.
Yeah, that like follows them

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around the PE, like, they, like
the teacher, like pushes the

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car.
I'm like, this is out of

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control.
Like, no wonder things fall.

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Well, I remember when we were in
school, probably when you were

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in school, if you're thirsty,
you ran the water fountain real

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quick.
You got a drink and you ran back

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to class.
Water was a privilege.

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It was a privilege.
It's like, remember the Titans?

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Like, you know, Coach Boone,
like you.

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Water makes you weak.
No, it's like you don't need

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water.
Yeah, after recess, you just

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gulp for dear life, 'cause
that's the one.

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That's the one drink you're
going to get for the day.

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And you know Jimmy in front of
you's mouths all over the the.

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Water.
It's like unbelievable.

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But it is crazy dehydration,
man.

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And I don't think we were like
fainting and stuff, but we were

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probably dehydrated, you know?
You probably needed the water of

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life, right?
Living Water.

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Segway into our podcast, we are
talking Incarnation.

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It's Christmas time, right?
We got to there's This is the

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carnation instant breakfast.
But this is not the Carnation

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instant breakfast.
This is the incarnation.

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Incarnation.
Yeah, very important

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distinction.
We're talking second person of

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the Trinity.
This is the Tuesday before.

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Christmas Tuesday before
Christmas, so this is.

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I hope you got your Christmas
shopping.

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Done.
You're running out of time.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hope you do.

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So on your way, while you're
running the target or search on

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Amazon, just throw.
Keep listening to us.

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We'll walk you.
Through it, you know?

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Yeah, we'll talk you through
everything.

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Everything you need about the
if.

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In case you're at Target and
need to drop some knowledge on

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the incarnation we got you.
Let's go ahead and take it to

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the next level.
Let's fire up that twanga music.

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level.
All right, the incarnation,

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pretty important.
Some would say yeah.

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If you start reading any of the
Gospels, it's going to talk

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about, you know, the birth of
Christ, except for the one

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that's the copy off the other
ones, Mark.

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But John opens up, you know, in
the beginning was the word, the

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word was God.
The word was with God.

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He was in the beginning he was
God.

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And then he says, talks about
all things being made through

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him.
Nothing that came into being

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came into being apart from him.
Talks about John the Baptist for

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a little bit.
And then in verse 114 it says

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and the word became flesh and
dwelt among us.

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Huge verse.
Huge.

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Verse.
Huge thing on the the scene of

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history of humanity.
And and you and we might talk

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about this later, I don't know,
but this, this word I've talked

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about before, this word Dwelts,
Greek, Greek word, this dwelt is

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the same.
It literally is Tabernacle.

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If you're reading the Septuagint
talk about the Tabernacle, it's

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like that again.
We last episode talked about

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this imagery.
You see that Jesus, the word

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Tabernacle, It's like man,
that's like so perfect.

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You know, that's good.
That's more of a this.

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Yeah.
That's more of a pastoral.

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That's great.
That's great.

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Yeah.
So the incarnation, you know,

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doesn't.
It's not just how God is going

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to achieve our salvation, but
it's really, you know, who God

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reveals himself to be because
we'll read like in Colossians,

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you know, he is the image of the
invisible God.

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He'll tell Philip, you know, how
long have you been with me?

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If you've seen me, you've seen
the Father.

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Those are big, big words.
And it's important because a lot

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of heresies out there and almost
every heresy will eventually

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distort either the Trinity, the
nature of the Trinity, salvation

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or worship.
And of course, you know, Christ

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and the incarnation is kind of
in the center of a lot of that.

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So we're going to be asking, you
know, really what exactly is the

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incarnation?
What changed?

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What didn't change?
Oh, that's just as important.

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Yeah, about the second, second,
second person.

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So second person of the Trinity
may know him as Yeshua.

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Oh yeah, yeah, callback like.
It the eternal Son, the word in

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Greek, that's the Lagos.
He wasn't created.

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That's important.
It wasn't.

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Even if he's the first born, you
know, not, not created.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not contingent, not like

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secondary essence we talked
about.

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I was trying to say Arias a few
episodes back.

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I said Athanasius, but he he
writes a creed.

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I think we'll get talk a little
bit about it.

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00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,840
But if you read through that
creed, you'll see a lot of the

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stuff that the second person of
the Trinity, just like the third

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person in Trinity, they have
divine nature, divine will,

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divine glory.
So maybe we can split up these

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texts and read them.
Are you already on John?

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I am on John all right.
I'll get Colossians and then.

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Race we'll sort of drill for
Hebrews.

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00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,200
I love I love to easy way to
remember just think of the ones

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00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,320
John 1 Colossians 1 Hebrews 1.
He wants some good Christology

229
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,800
great places to great places to
camp out John one starting in

230
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,880
verse one reads in the beginning
was the word and the word was

231
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,560
with God and the word was God.
He was in the beginning with

232
00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:52,040
God.
All things were made through

233
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,120
him, and without him was not
anything made that was made.

234
00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:01,520
Pretty straightforward, I mean
not easy to understand, but but

235
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,040
but easy to to to comprehend and
the beginning.

236
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,200
Was the Word that That's right,
that's right.

237
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,200
And the word was God, very
important.

238
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,760
Colossians 115.
He is the image of the invisible

239
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,200
God, the first born of all
creation.

240
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,240
For by Him all things were
created both in the heavens and

241
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,360
on the earth, visible and
invisible, whether Thrones or

242
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,720
dominions or rulers for
authorities, all things have

243
00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,440
been created through Him and for
him.

244
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,880
He is before all things, and in
Him all things hold together.

245
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,760
Wow, yeah.
Big statements before all

246
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,280
things.
Sometimes this first born

247
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,680
language trips people up, yeah.
Really that makes you think that

248
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,280
there's a beginning, but you
know, like Esau was the first

249
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,000
born, he had the inheritance
rights, so that you can think of

250
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,320
it like that.
No, that's good.

251
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,080
Good clarification.
Hebrews 1.

252
00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,520
Long ago at many times in many
ways God spoke to our fathers by

253
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,840
the prophets, but in these last
days He has spoken to us by His

254
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,200
Son, whom He appointed the heir
of all things, through whom also

255
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,440
He created the world.
He is the radiance of the glory

256
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,160
of God and the exact imprint of
His nature, and He upholds the

257
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,000
universe by the word of His
power, after making

258
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,160
purification.
For since he sat down at the

259
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,920
right hand of the majesty on
high, I like the exact imprint

260
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,680
of his nature, radiance of the
glory of God, All these

261
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:32,200
passages, these, these strong
statements.

262
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,880
And just like the with the first
born, the term son, you might

263
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:42,320
think of, you know, some
biological, but while Jesus, you

264
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,320
know, wasn't the human was
biologically, you know, the

265
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,080
second person in the Trinity we
call God the Son.

266
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,040
It's more of like an ontological
status than, you know, a

267
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,880
biological derivation.
Yeah, I was going to talk about

268
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,080
this.
It was, it is too much to talk

269
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,400
about like in the adoption
series, but it's like, I think

270
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,960
it's good and you can correct me
if I'm wrong here, But we think

271
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,800
about, you know, giving these
human characteristics to God,

272
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,680
like, oh, God sees all there.
You know, God's hand is

273
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,480
extended.
Really, it's like the opposite

274
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,880
with Sonship.
This is like a Theo morphism

275
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,240
where it's like Sonship's a God
thing that we're kind of

276
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:23,880
borrowing, you know, it's like
the opposite.

277
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,000
So like for us it's like
biological, but it's like we're,

278
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,360
you know, it's ontological.
It's, you know, really it's like

279
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,080
a hard thing for us to grasp
with the way we we use it.

280
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:34,880
Yep.
And then you might also hear

281
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,320
that the Son is eternally
generated from the Father.

282
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,280
It's confusing or it's weird we
don't talk about stuff like.

283
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,360
That but but so if you are very
creedal, you may say things like

284
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,080
that in your church, but that
doesn't mean that there was a

285
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,440
beginning when Jesus became
because it's like this eternal

286
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,880
relationship between them.
So they're it always is that

287
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,280
way.
Yeah, that that that's good.

288
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,440
So let's talk about the
incarnation proper.

289
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,440
Let's get down to Bethlehem.
What happens the eternal Son

290
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:11,600
talked about this assumes a
complete human nature.

291
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,480
And I think even in like, you
know, Philippians 2 weeks, when

292
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,240
people use like this term
kenosis, sometimes, sometimes it

293
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,200
can be confusing.
Like what's that?

294
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,040
What's it mean to assume a human
nature?

295
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,680
Is it like we combine these and
split the difference?

296
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,840
Did we, did we, you know, get
rid of one nature?

297
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,200
How?
How does this work together

298
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,200
'cause that is important.
No, I think that is very good,

299
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,320
because God, it cannot cease to
be God.

300
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,520
So the second.
Like it just can't.

301
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,360
Happen right, right.
You can't give up his godship.

302
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,320
And we're not saying that there
was some mixture of it's not

303
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,960
like he's Hercules like a
demigod, you know, So he is

304
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:58,760
fully divine, doesn't give up
that, but he adds to that person

305
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,760
the human nature, easy to say,
not always easy to understand

306
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,920
what's going on.
This other one you have in here,

307
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,000
some, you know, heresies have
developed.

308
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,360
It's like, OK, he had like he
had like the, like you're mixing

309
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,680
like the mind with the body or
the, it's like you're like

310
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,560
taking pieces and like mashing
them together kind of almost.

311
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,720
Yeah, it's not like there was a
human and they just zapped out

312
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,840
the mind and just put a divine
mind in it to control it.

313
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,920
So there was a there was a
really human mind there that

314
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,680
developed, learned how to tie
his shoes, assuming they had

315
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,440
shoelaces back then.
That's right, he was out of his

316
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,800
time.
Learned how to speak 2

317
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,680
languages.
You know all those things.

318
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,920
Learned how to cut stone.
He had to.

319
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,480
He had to do all that.
Stuff, and I think you nailed it

320
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:43,520
too.
It's a good way to think about

321
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,520
it is like at this edition, that
is good.

322
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,680
Don't think subtraction.
You know, I like that a lot.

323
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,880
Yeah.
And so our, you know, key phrase

324
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,320
here, he became what he was not
without ceasing to be what he

325
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,720
already was so.
Well, thank goodness for the

326
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,000
Calcedonian formula because
that's like the go to.

327
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,840
You're like, I hope I didn't say
something wrong.

328
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,080
You know what I mean?
Yeah, the mixing and the divided

329
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,840
and, you know, not confusing the
nature.

330
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,240
It's like it's all there.
Yeah.

331
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,720
And so, yeah, the Calcedonian
formula doesn't necessarily to

332
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,920
help you understand it
necessarily, but it keeps you

333
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,720
from error.
Like so if you can say what

334
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,120
you're saying and it aligns with
the Calcini formula, you're

335
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,880
probably OK.
So it's just going to kind of

336
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,400
give you these guardrails of,
you know, what's true and what's

337
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,240
not true.
So Jesus Christ, this human

338
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:41,160
Yeshua miac, right?
Something like that we we get

339
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,480
some Jewish listeners to to
correct our pronunciation.

340
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,320
One part.
Well, I guess you'd have to be a

341
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,880
Messianic Jew probably if you're
that's that's.

342
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,000
True, that's a good point.
So one person, so there's

343
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,400
hypostasis, so there's one
person there.

344
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,520
And then this is like the basis
hypostatic union.

345
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,800
Also weird term.
You don't talk about hypostasis

346
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,720
a lot.
You know that's good.

347
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,839
Though.
So one person, 2 natures, divine

348
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,680
and human, and those two natures
are held without confusion,

349
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,119
without change, without
division, without separation.

350
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,000
So.
Yeah, that's good.

351
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,839
That's the, that's the without.
They're not confused, not

352
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:23,800
changed, not not separated
keywords because I mean, you can

353
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,960
think about the opposites if
there are, if there is

354
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,520
confusion, if it changes, God's
no longer God, God's no longer

355
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:31,600
man.
That's a problem.

356
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,320
You know, there's, there is this
division there.

357
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,440
Yeah, you look and that's when
you start running into all these

358
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,360
heresies left in rank.
Yeah, so some of the heresies,

359
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,640
Nestorianism would basically say
there's two persons there,

360
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,400
Eukeanism, blended natures, and
Apollinarianism, incomplete

361
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,560
humanity, so not really a human.
Yeah, so if we're like talking

362
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,960
about, yeah, if the one, the
Apollinarianism, yeah, not a

363
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,800
human 'cause he's incomplete.
The Eudicus one, it's like

364
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:04,760
almost like an alien.
It's nothing.

365
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,840
It's neither of the two.
And then Nestorianism is just to

366
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,960
set that.
That's a weird one to me.

367
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,280
If you're 2 separate persons,
that's.

368
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,560
Like fighting each other.
It's like literally the the two,

369
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,200
like the two things on the
shoulders.

370
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,800
Yeah.
So if Christ isn't fully human,

371
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,120
it's hard to see how he redeems
humanity.

372
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,000
Like, he can't be the second
Adam if he's not fully human.

373
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,120
But if he's not fully God, then
it's hard to see how he redeems

374
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,200
humanity because one human could
in theory pay the price for one

375
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,720
other human.
But the Father lays on him, you

376
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:47,120
know, in a space of about 3
hours, enough punishment that he

377
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,560
can look at that and say, OK,
that's paid your eternal, your

378
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,800
eternal sins.
So one human couldn't couldn't

379
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:54,960
do that by himself, I don't
think.

380
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,000
That's right, even perfect life,
one human.

381
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,920
Yeah, can't, can't redeem all of
humanity.

382
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,520
I don't know if this is in the
notes or not, but follow up

383
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,440
question.
So we have one person, 2

384
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,840
natures.
Will goes with the natures

385
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,920
rather than persons.
Yes.

386
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,120
Where Christ would have two
wills, you know, as human will

387
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:16,600
somebody to divine that.
Yeah, yeah, he.

388
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:23,800
Did and I go OK if you say so
because two wills almost seems

389
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,680
like it gets back to a little
bit of.

390
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,920
You kind of get this.
To to to people, Yeah.

391
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,480
And it's it's tough with Christ
being the exception, I guess

392
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:35,360
the.
Yeah.

393
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,000
The Yeah, not now.
I guess we'll talk about it

394
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,640
later with the EFS or the ESS.
This is a big thing with wills

395
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,400
and all, all of this kind of
thing, you know.

396
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,440
So this this will be good.
But before we get there,

397
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,120
Athanasius baby.
Athanasius.

398
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,720
He gave us a creed, not Apollo
Creed, the Athanasius Creed.

399
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,160
But this is a this is a long
creed.

400
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,600
You should look it up, read it,
but some of the core

401
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,600
affirmations from it, one God
and Trinity, Trinity and Unity.

402
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,200
Another place to get a good
reference for the the creed is

403
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,840
Lutheran Satires.
Wonderful.

404
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,200
If you just Google Lutheran
satire in the Trinity you'll get

405
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,200
you'll get the the Saint Patrick
one but one God in Trinity and

406
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,800
Trinity unity.
No confusion of persons, no

407
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,880
divisions of substances.
Christ is God from the substance

408
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,400
of the Father, man for the
substance of his mother.

409
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:43,000
And so you would say he's equal
to the Father as touching the

410
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,400
Godhead, and inferior to the
Father as touching his manhood.

411
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,840
That's right, and I don't know
if you know this or not.

412
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,760
God, Godhead, manhood, it's like
the same like you don't say

413
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,880
godhood, Godhead is manhood.
It's like the same words, just

414
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,120
how they 'cause I always
wondered like why is it the

415
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,560
Godhead?
So you're saying that's

416
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,120
translated that out of was there
a was there?

417
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,920
I think there's a language in
where it might have been like

418
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,280
Manhead or I don't know what
it's like, but it's like that.

419
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,760
That's like what you're getting
at.

420
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,240
You know, yeah.
So there's those are those.

421
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:14,880
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

422
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,800
So why does all this matter?
Well, it ground subordination

423
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,120
where it belongs, in the
Incarnate economy, not in the

424
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:28,680
eternal being of God, because
God the Son is God.

425
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,120
And so there's this question
about, you know, in, in

426
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:35,480
eternity.
Yeah.

427
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,040
Was God the Son subordinate to
the Father, or were they Co

428
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,880
equal Co Co?
This, I think on one hand is a

429
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,200
very simple solution.
Yeah, it seems very crazy

430
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,280
because I don't know if you if
you follow this argument, but

431
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,920
it's a lot with like people like
Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem and

432
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,880
like are on the wrong side of
like a a lot of your like pop

433
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,480
theologians that are the are
different than maybe some of

434
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,280
your more confessional like more
that fall.

435
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:08,840
I don't know.
It's it seems like it's a big.

436
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,000
Divide.
He's for eternal subordination

437
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,440
of the Son.
Well, I don't know if he is or

438
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,800
not.
The way his 1994 systematic

439
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,480
theology read, people accuse him
of this.

440
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,200
He updated his newer systematic
where it's more vague.

441
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,560
Like it doesn't.
I mean, it's it's it's like it's

442
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,840
weird.
And then I don't if you talk

443
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,920
about Bruce Ware, which I think
is out of like southern and

444
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,480
stuff, he has prob like he's on
the wrong side of it.

445
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,800
It's really like, I don't know,
we can talk.

446
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,840
We can talk about it more
because on one hand it seems

447
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,200
simple, but where I'm curious to
get your thoughts, Cause a lot

448
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:48,120
of people push where they push
back is like Wayne Grudem would

449
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:52,240
say like it's like a husband,
wife, daughter, Trinity

450
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,600
relationship that they would say
that is ESSEFS is what the

451
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,520
people on the other side.
That's like you can't use that

452
00:22:58,520 --> 00:22:59,920
analogy.
You know what I'm saying?

453
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,000
But any anyway, that's like
where and I don't know, maybe

454
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,000
this is getting too much
pedantic and in the minutiae or

455
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,760
whatever, but we can we can
paint it big picture first.

456
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,120
It's probably better than all
these.

457
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,440
Details.
So eternal subordination of the

458
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,080
sun.
You want to break that down for

459
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:14,800
us?
What?

460
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,240
That is.
So I'll, I'll follow these into

461
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,440
the claim.
Is the Son we we know from a

462
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,240
human standpoint, not my will,
but but your if if Christ has

463
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,800
two wills, human will
subordinate to the divine will.

464
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:30,520
The question is like you were
saying in history, like

465
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,520
ontologically like is the Son
eternally functionally

466
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,160
subordinate to the Father?
And the concern is, do you have

467
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,600
this higher hierarchy?
Like, is that a problem if they

468
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:48,440
are truly coequal, you know, are
you breaking up the natures?

469
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,600
Like are they all of one will?
Is there one will with God?

470
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,320
Or does God, divinity have
separate wills that are just

471
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,240
perfectly In Sync?
These are the kinds of

472
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,360
questions.
You know well to use the husband

473
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,520
wife analogy.
So even if you are a

474
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:09,520
complementarian, which I am, I
think you probably are as well,

475
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:10,920
right?
Patriarchy, baby.

476
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,480
No.
Yeah, yeah.

477
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,480
I I I still like the term
complimentaries.

478
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,120
I think yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you would say that you and

479
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,640
Leanne are equal in value.
Yes.

480
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,000
But different in roles.
But different in roles, yeah.

481
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,720
So where would that if someone
were to try to apply that

482
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,360
language here, equal in value,
equal in divinity, but the

483
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,840
different in roles, would that
would that align under ESS

484
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,160
eternal subordination of the
sun?

485
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,400
Yeah, and I, I think the problem
gets like it.

486
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,160
You can't make this perfect
analogy like because no

487
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,960
disagreement in the God ahead.
If there's a disagreement

488
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,560
between you and Jill, like who
gets to put their foot down or

489
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,280
you know, it's it's a different,
it's a different, it's a

490
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,600
different analogy.
And I think, I think that's what

491
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:57,960
makes it hard or a hard process.
But there is a lot of a lot of,

492
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,280
you know, fighting on the
interwebs about this kind of

493
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,040
stuff and how much you want to
push or how much is like a

494
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,680
helpful analogy that maybe you
don't press on every single

495
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,480
point of the analogy.
But it kind of, you know, no

496
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,760
analogy is probably going to be
perfect anyway, you know?

497
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,240
So what are what are the key
differences between ESS and EFS?

498
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,080
It's just whether it's in the
economic Trinity alone versus in

499
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,200
the ontological Trinity that
those are the key.

500
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,400
Differences.
I don't know.

501
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,120
I've and I don't know enough
about this.

502
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,400
I've seen some of these used
like interchangeably, but maybe

503
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,080
people don't know what they're
talking about.

504
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,480
You know what I'm saying?
Do do people generally they kind

505
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,680
of are the same?
That's that's me watching people

506
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,680
fight on Facebook.
That's my observation, not being

507
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,720
like a scholar on the space it
seems like, and maybe the people

508
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,960
arguing.
Don't.

509
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,240
So if ESS and EFS are kind of in
one corner, what's in the other

510
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,840
corner?
What is there an acronym or name

511
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,680
for that?
What's the Sorry to put you on

512
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,640
the.
Spot No, yeah, I, I don't know

513
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,040
if there's an acronym like the
other side of it would say like,

514
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320
hey, we're orthodox
Christianity, like, like they're

515
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,120
like.
They don't have a name for it I.

516
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,920
I don't know if I don't know if
there is a name like this is

517
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,640
usually used like I always see
it very pejoratively used of

518
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,080
Wayne Grudem and Bruce Ware.
It's like very like people are

519
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,760
like recommended systematic
theology.

520
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:16,800
It's like Wayne Grudem's is
great.

521
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,160
People are like, you know, he's
EFS, right?

522
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,120
Like that's like, that's like
the thing you see a lot and

523
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:21,520
they're like people like what's
EFS?

524
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,720
And they're like, well, he
thinks the son is less than the

525
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,560
father, and that it's like
caricature, you know, 'cause.

526
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,280
Wayne would not say that Wayne.
Would not say that at all

527
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,880
exactly.
I mean, I was just talking to

528
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,440
him the other day and and he
didn't say that.

529
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,360
So, so it, I think all these
people having these fights, I

530
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:42,080
think would not say they would
not be painted.

531
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,960
I, I think it'd be hard.
I would be curious to find

532
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:51,920
someone who would really embrace
this in that in the Orthodox

533
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,480
Christianity space, you know
what I mean?

534
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,680
I think that would be hard
pressed.

535
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,160
Do we know people who do that
really embrace?

536
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,000
It I don't think so.
I think it's all like these

537
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,680
people that.
It's just like what you said

538
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,240
amounts to this.
Yeah.

539
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,680
And and I think it does get
confusing because we everyone

540
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,400
would grant economically,
ontologically, like there is a

541
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,560
difference in how we see the
Trinity function normally versus

542
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,720
at the essence, you know?
Well, instead of us arguing

543
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,720
about, let's just see what the
Bible has to say about it.

544
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,560
Beautiful, beautiful.
All right, so this is

545
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,840
Philippians 2, five through 11.
Often, you know, talk.

546
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,800
We would refer to this as the
kenosis, or the emptying of

547
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,120
Christ and his privileges.
So Philippians 25 says he have

548
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,960
this attitude in yourselves,
which was also in Christ Jesus,

549
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,040
who although he existed in the
form of God, in that form.

550
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,360
I don't like it in English
because I know it comes from a

551
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,080
stronger word in the Greek
because we can just think of

552
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,200
form and it's a weaker sense
than what it is.

553
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,560
But it would be like in the
essence or in the nature of God.

554
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,280
So, although He existed in the
form of God, did not regard

555
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,240
equality with God a thing to be
grasped, but emptied himself,

556
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,040
taking the form of a bondservant
and being made in the likeness

557
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,560
of man, being found in
appearance as a man, he humbled

558
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,200
himself by coming, by becoming
obedient to the point of death,

559
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,720
even death on a cross.
For this reason also God highly

560
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,000
exalted Him and bestowed on Him
the name which is above every

561
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,640
name.
So at the name of Yeshua, every

562
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,720
knee will bow of those who are
in heaven and on earth and under

563
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,880
the earth and that and that
every tongue will confess that

564
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,800
Jesus Christ is Lord to the
glory of God the Father.

565
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,640
So there we go.
Classic text.

566
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,280
That's that's that's what the
Bible has to say about it.

567
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,040
No, it's great.
I'm trying to look up.

568
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:54,080
There is a good I will have to
look at it a little bit later,

569
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,480
but Kevin Deyoung's got a good
piece on this 'cause I I, I like

570
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,960
Kevin Deyoung.
I think he's very balanced on it

571
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,480
and he would be a guy who'd be
like EFSESS not what I'm about,

572
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080
but he's like, this is what
people probably mean or it's

573
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,960
like, you know, he's like more
on that, you know, Hey, I don't

574
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,480
think that's the right way to
talk about it, but Wayne

575
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,840
Grudem's not a crazy person, you
know, kind of thing versus like

576
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,480
all this stuff.
I was trying to see the we're

577
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,160
we're breaks down.
It's always Wang Grudem, it's

578
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,400
Bruce Ware, John Doms, George
Knight, and these people are

579
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,640
always kind of at at odds.
But I think Wing Grudem's been

580
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,880
like asked about this and he's
like he he was like, I don't

581
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,280
want to.
He's like, this is not a fight.

582
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,360
I'm trying to like, I'm not, you
know, so.

583
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,000
That's what someone who is in
ESS would say.

584
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,200
Right, so anyway, for further
reading I was going to try to

585
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,320
find it, but I think Kevin
Deyoung's got a good.

586
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,880
Balance accessible.
If we do find it, we can link it

587
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,280
in the notes or something I.
Think I think that that would be

588
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,120
good because I think he brings
like a good academic bent to it

589
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,880
that's accessible.
That's like, OK, we're getting

590
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,880
good stuff.
But anyway, there you go all.

591
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,760
Right, so we touched on so, so
hopefully just to clear the air.

592
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,920
So maybe like the last 10
minutes you'd be like, I don't

593
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,400
know what Zach and Michael are
saying.

594
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,960
So just clear there, there's
obviously we know that in his

595
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,840
incarnation, Jesus Christ, the
man submitted his will to God

596
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,400
the Father and he was obedient
to what the father, you know,

597
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,920
had him do.
He went out and he fasted for 40

598
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,080
days because the Father told him
to.

599
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,680
Satan tells him, he says you had
the power to turn this rock into

600
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,160
bread.
Why don't you do it?

601
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,160
Well, I'm being obedient to the
Father.

602
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,320
I, you know, I'm going to do
what the Father told me to do.

603
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,600
And he told me to fast, you see,
in the garden of send me, get

604
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,880
Gethsemane.
Hey, is there any way for this

605
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,200
to cut to pass for me 'cause you
know it, it's not going to be

606
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,880
great?
But.

607
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,560
Not my will, your will, Father,
I'm going to obey you.

608
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,120
So that's clear.
And what we would call that is

609
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,160
the economic Trinity, basically
the economy, the job of getting

610
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,440
salvation done.
The different parts of the

611
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,480
Trinity play different roles in
achieving salvation for us.

612
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:20,160
That Trinity Trinitarian
relationship is thought to

613
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,040
probably be different in their,
you know, if you could talk

614
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,640
about their pure state before,
you know, before creation, if we

615
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,160
can use a tense verb there, you
know, without creation, the

616
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,400
Father of the Son and the Holy
Spirit, you know, being in

617
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,520
perfect harmony.
The question is, were there

618
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,640
grades of elevation there in
authority or were they all

619
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,840
equal?
And so that's that is the heart

620
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,480
of the question that is being
asked here.

621
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,880
And some people may go, I don't
know why that matters.

622
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,320
I'm going to read the Bible and
I'm going to do what it says.

623
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,680
But it's just it's a curiosity
because we want to understand

624
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,960
who our God is.
Will we fully understand him

625
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,200
ever?
No.

626
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,880
But we're told to try to
understand him.

627
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,640
And so when we try to understand
him, we peer into these

628
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,400
questions.
I, I think you're right and I'm

629
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,400
just skimming over this Kevin
Deyoung article and I think what

630
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,280
gets to the heart of it, I think
everyone's like in the same

631
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,680
ballpark.
People like Kevin Deyoung and

632
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,800
people that would say, hey, we
got the Orthodox Orthodoxy thing

633
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,560
wrapped up, wrapped up.
Basically, say when you're

634
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,560
talking about the Trinity, just
use begotten or proceeds or like

635
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,880
just use the creedal language.
Once you say like subordinate

636
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,600
and roles, even if you mean the
same thing, it carries weight

637
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,080
baggage to them.
And and reading it, he's like, I

638
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,240
think we're on the same page,
kind of he's like, just stick to

639
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,600
creedal language and then you're
like safe.

640
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,360
I think it's like it's more than
that.

641
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,920
But I think that's what I'm
saying the dividing line is

642
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,800
you're not saying, but I I think
people like Wayne Grudem try to

643
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,040
make it more accessible because
you have to explain the

644
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,400
vocabulary.
You know what I mean?

645
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,520
So anyway.
Yeah.

646
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,200
All right.
So we we have in our notes and

647
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,520
I'm looking at the time we do
have in the notes a section on

648
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,360
supra versus infra lapsarianism.
We did talk about this slightly,

649
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,520
so maybe we can quickly hit this
and then move on.

650
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,760
So infra lapsarianism would be
that basically on to lot like a

651
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,400
logical order.
That's right.

652
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,120
That's would be that God decreed
creation and out of the

653
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,200
creation, then he decrees the
fall and then in response to the

654
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,040
fall decrees redemption in
Christ.

655
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,640
And so in a logical order of
succession, the incarnation is

656
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:44,040
God's response to sin.
Whereas superlapsarianism would

657
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,760
say God decrees election in
Christ like he called he's like

658
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,840
I want a people to myself and
and in order to achieve that

659
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,160
then he decrees creation and
fall as a means to achieve his

660
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,640
election of people that.
That's good 'cause I think it's

661
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,280
challenging, We don't have to
spend a lot of time on it.

662
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:10,159
Where I think in my mind it'd be
great, like infra would be great

663
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:11,719
'cause it's like, oh, we're just
going with the flow.

664
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,679
But that's probably that's what
I would do.

665
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:18,280
I would see things unfold and
react where I think supra lends

666
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,400
itself more to.
God be this is my.

667
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,280
Master plan, Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

668
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,679
Yeah, so I probably would lean
supra because, you know, there's

669
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,920
key texts, Ephesians 1/4 through
10, where God predestines us

670
00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:34,040
before the foundation of the
world.

671
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,360
Colossians 118, we read
Revelation 13/8.

672
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:46,040
So those scriptures would kind
of hint at, you know, this, this

673
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,880
long term view of God, of
creating people for himself.

674
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,440
All right.
One of your favorite topics, the

675
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,240
wills of Christ, the wills, the
last will and testament, is that

676
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,520
the type of will we're talking
about?

677
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,720
Oh, yeah, I love this, 'cause
this was that one of the

678
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,000
councils, one of, yeah, affirmed
at Constantinople.

679
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,360
The third, they actually, they
actually settled this.

680
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,160
This is great.
I've read, I've listened to a

681
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,200
lecture by Bob Godfrey with
Ligonier and he's like I, I

682
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,600
asked, I asked this question
like day one seminary students

683
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,040
be like you.
That's a heresy.

684
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,400
Like I could catch them off one
will or two will because it's

685
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,200
like, you know, but yeah, kind
of nailed it down where there

686
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,680
Christ does have a divine will
and and a human will not in

687
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,440
conflicts.
You know, that human will went

688
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,440
along subordinate to the divine
will and freely submitted to it.

689
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,200
But that's important because
when you the text you talked

690
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,560
about, we talked about
Gethsemane, that that's it's

691
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,960
real.
It's not just it's not just hey,

692
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,960
every, you know, the human world
did submit and that that's

693
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,640
important, right?
Christ redeems humanity

694
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,120
willingly, not just totally
bypassing it.

695
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:00,880
And then some questions with
worship and sometimes I think we

696
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,320
don't take it all the way here,
which is pretty, pretty cool.

697
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,400
But if if Christ is less than
God or less than man, that

698
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,560
impacts who we're worshiping and
how we worship, right?

699
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,800
Yeah, if he's less than God then
we shouldn't be worshipping him.

700
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,840
Yeah, that's bad.
That's like a get stick.

701
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:15,840
A man.
Have you ever heard of him?

702
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,240
But if he's less than fully
human, then salvation becomes

703
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,560
like this abstract.
It's not really like he he

704
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,480
really is who he is.
So the incarnation of Christ is

705
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,760
God's not distant.
He would come near, he came near

706
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,600
us.
I was talking to Joel about

707
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,160
this.
You know, there's a guy at our

708
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,200
church that we were talking to
who's struggling with some

709
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,160
things and he didn't want to
talk with, with me or and some

710
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,200
others.
And I was like, you know,

711
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:47,880
Hebrews says that Jesus was
tested like us, but sinless so

712
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,800
that he, you know, can
sympathize with you.

713
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,000
He can sympathize with us in our
struggles.

714
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,680
It's like, how much more can a
fallen human sympathize with

715
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,880
another brother?
You know, we can sympathize with

716
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,600
each other.
Like we know that there can be

717
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,040
tough times.
But really, you know, this

718
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,720
incarnation does mean that we
have someone who was tested like

719
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:10,080
us, who went through what it
means to be tired, what, you

720
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,400
know, to be, you know, tempted
to be angry without pause, you

721
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,040
know those things and went
through that, you know,

722
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,680
seamlessly.
But he can still relate to us.

723
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,560
And that that is good.
Maybe for a different podcast,

724
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,040
we should talk about the
impeccability of Christ, like,

725
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,120
you know, could he have sinned
or could he not have sinned?

726
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,200
It's a good, it's a good
question.

727
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,040
And some people put great weight
into, well, if he couldn't have

728
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,560
sinned or I don't know, you know
what I mean.

729
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,400
But we, we will close.
We will land the plane with this

730
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,280
podcast.
Good things to ponder as we are

731
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,800
in this Christmas season.
I like that this, this

732
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,080
incarnation that, that God's not
only transcendent, but he is

733
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,280
very intimate, not not totally
distant.

734
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,360
So think about the eternal Son,
the one who did not cling to his

735
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,240
rights, but he took on flesh to
accomplish our salvation.

736
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:59,400
What's that say about the shape
of what it what true power looks

737
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,800
like, what true obedience, what
it looks like, true glory, and

738
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,320
what it looks like?
Yeah, Yep.

739
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,800
That's what he did for us, and
that's what we're hopefully

740
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,200
singing about.
There you go, those hymns.

741
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:11,120
Joy to the world, right,
Christmas SIM?

742
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,320
That's right.
I love it.

743
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,400
That's good.
Add it to the that's all I got.

744
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,240
I think we covered a lot, a lot
of good things to think about

745
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,000
when in doubt, you know, just
it's good to read over those

746
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,040
creeds, you know, that's good to
that language.

747
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,320
All right, that's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

748
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,520
Two.
Find us wherever you find

749
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,280
podcast and on YouTube for those
who want to watch our video

750
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:33,720
cast.