Does Baptism Save? A Clear Framework for a Divisive Question

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All right, Zach, so we have, I
think we've finished hymns and

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songs.
Yeah, knocked it out of the

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park.
Yeah, I thought that was good.

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Three good three episode run.
So I wanted us to launch maybe

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talking about cults in general.
You like that?

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And so I'd like to talk about
Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness,

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not necessarily from the
viewpoint of taking them down,

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like showing why they're wrong,
but at least up front showing

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why they are not denominations
of Christianity.

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Dude, don't take him down.
What?

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I'm scaring you.
That's better.

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That's good.
That's good, and we can talk

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about why we think their
theology is wrong, but I wanted

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to start out this series with a
podcast on baptism.

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Wow, OK.
Yeah, yeah, we've talked about

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baptism in general before, but I
heard a recent podcast by Wayne

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Lane Craig.
WLC.

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And how he framed I thought was
very interesting.

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And I think it's related enough
to cults because there are some

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people who baptism is one of
those things that could be a

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secondary issue, but you could
also make mess it up in a way

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that's a primary issue too.
So it's not necessarily directly

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cult related, but.
You're saying William Lane Craig

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is cultish?
I'm just kidding.

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No, I'm just kidding.
But I thought that it might be

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good for our series in general.
Let's talk about baptism.

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Probably would say it's
important.

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It's it's a command.
We do it.

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We do it you.
I know, I, I know, yeah.

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Sorry, sorry, we we, we, we
doing a new format and we

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normally have banter before you
talk about anything serious so

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but we are going to take it to
the next level.

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Let's fire up that twanga music.
From the hearts of the Low

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Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level, baptism.

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Like I said, a lot of these
notes are taken from a recent

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podcast by William Lane Craig.
Nice.

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I don't agree with everything
William Lane Craig believes and

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teaches, that's what, and there
are some major differences, but

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nothing that I would say.
He's not a Christian or anything

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like that.
Yeah, did you, did you say let's

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snip that he's not a Christian,
you just said.

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It nothing that I would make me
say.

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But he's not a Christian.
Yeah, but he is writing the

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systematic theology theology
books.

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Do you know that?
Is he's currently writing and.

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He's releasing them and volumes,
yeah.

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Oh yeah.
How many?

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How far is he in the I think?
He's maybe volume one and two,

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maybe 3.
You're out.

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But yeah, it's.
And so part of that is he has to

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deal with some topics that he
may have held personal beliefs

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on, but he hasn't really, like,
made a big ministry push.

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Yeah, that's hard.
'Cause everything kind of gets

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exposed, whether I mean, you're
like, yeah, this is not my

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emphasis, but I still believe.
This, yeah.

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And I think at some point in
time we need to talk about his

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Neo.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess

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I'm so forgetful we haven't
talked about that on the

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podcast.
I.

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Don't think so, yeah.
Yeah, I was, I was trying to

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sort that all out the other day.
But back to baptism.

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So he's laying out his views of
baptism.

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And like you were saying, when
we, when we needed to take it to

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the next level, we'd all agree
that baptism is important.

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That's right.
Yeah, it's commanded.

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It's normative.
Yeah, maybe it doesn't happen

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every time, but under most
circumstances that should be the

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way you can always be.
Like deep on the cross.

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You're like always looking for
exceptions.

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But yeah.
It's good, but there's

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disagreement on whether, you
know, there are some

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disagreements that are real and
we would say non cardinal like

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and not in the top, you know,
tier of stuff that would

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separate you from Christianity.
But you could you could push

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this into a heresy.
Like if you said that baptism

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work with salvific, I think
maybe that pushes it, But and

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the central question is not
necessarily method.

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Yeah.
That kind of is like a side

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quest that we can get like hung
up on, but that might not be the

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fundamental issue.
But on its efficacy, like

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basically the question what if
anything does water baptism

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actually do It's.
A good question.

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I think across the board with
ordinances, sacraments, it's a

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good question.
Cause I've really, and maybe

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we'll get into this more.
I really hesitate to say

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everything's merely symbolic,
but I also hesitate to say this

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is like mystical and it's, but
it's like, it's more than just

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symbolic.
Yeah.

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I feel like, yeah.
But anyway, we'll, we'll, yeah.

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I mean, that's where William
Lane Craig ends up.

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He ends up specifically that
that word symbolic or

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figurative.
OK, Yeah.

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And so, and he'll make a, he'll
make a distinction.

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If you listen to it the first
time, he will say it is not a

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sacrament, okay.
And then he'll say, well, it's

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not a sacrament in the strong
sense.

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Yeah, that's the also.
That's not actual means of

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grace, but it is a means by
which got, you know this.

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Is all this language is so
confusing slash.

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It is precise and important
because I know most people on

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the Baptist side of things
really do shy away from, I never

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want to say sacrament.
I'm going to say ordinance.

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And then Presbyterians are like
sacrament all day.

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And it's like, I'm going to, you
know, it's like, OK, we're

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putting a lot.
And then some people just use

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them interchangeably and say,
you know, don't have any meaning

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but people.
Sacrament ordinance, right?

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You know.
Yeah, all these things that's.

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Right, All right.
And the second question is, it's

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kind of related.
Does water baptism relate to the

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Holy Spirit at all?
You know, is there a baptism

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spirit?
And, and I think when we talked

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about this last time, I
mentioned the baptism itself in

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the whole Testament is used a
number of different ways.

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Baptized by fire, baptized by
water, baptism of repentance,

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baptism of the Holy Spirit,
baptized into Jesus name.

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So it it might be a mistake to
read that word baptism in our

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New Testament and assume that
the authors have the same thing

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in mind every time they use the
word, because there could be

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different variations in me.
Yeah.

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So William Lynn Craig puts us
into two broad categories, A

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figurative view, and he in that
under that view, baptism is

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merely symbolic.
And that's where most people

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that you and I rub shoulders
with would fall into.

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It represents realities that
occur apart from the right.

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It represents union with Christ
in death, burial, and

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resurrection.
It represents cleansing and

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pardoning from sins, but it's
not.

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But it's not cleansing the sin.
It's not doing any of those

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things, yeah.
Yeah, that's great.

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Cause cause a lot of people
would say that baptism is

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cleansing that sin that's
necessary.

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Be baptized for their mission of
sins.

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Yeah, and it's like, OK, that.
And so that's good to to break

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that down.
So language like buried with

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Christ and baptism is figured,
not casual.

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It's an expression of saving
faith.

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But that's not the.
That's not how we could say.

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It it's good.
And so the key idea in this one

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is the symbol points to the
reality, but the reality is not

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present in the symbol itself.
And that's where I would going

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back to the the idea of
different ways the word baptism

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is used.
I think in a very literal way,

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we are baptized in Christ like
we.

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Are in Christ, that's a real
thing.

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That's a real thing.
That's different from water

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baptism.
Right.

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And the water baptism symbolizes
our union with Christ.

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OK.
Yeah, I see.

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Yeah.
You know, it's, you know,

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physical picture of what's
already happened.

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Yeah, That, that, that's good.
So that.

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And that might help you make
sense of some scripture that

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says, you know, be baptized in
Christ for the mission center.

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Something like that.
There's probably some that are

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are less easy to peel away that
some people are like, well, you

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didn't deal with this first, but
I think it deals with some of

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those.
All right, as I interrupt you,

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go, go ahead.
No, no, that, that, that's good.

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So that's the figurativey or
figuralist view to be contrasted

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with the realist view.
Yeah.

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And so the realist view has
three kind of subviews

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underneath it.
But under the realist view,

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baptism is symbolic and
symbolized reality is somehow

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present in the baptism.
Baptism is really Sacramento

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here in the sense of its actual
means of grace, like imparts

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grace to us by doing it the ACT
itself.

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And so like I said, there's
three different views underneath

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this one.
So the first one Craig talks

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about, he calls it
occasionalism.

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And it's like, so each one of
these are going to get stronger

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in what baptism does.
So underneath occasionalism, the

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claim is that water baptism has
no causal power.

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I like the sound of that.
Yeah, it's simply the occasion

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on which God chooses to act
like, hey, whenever you get

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baptized, that is the temporal
time when I am going to act.

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I'm going to choose that
occasion to act, and what God

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does at that time is God
regenerates, He forgives sins,

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he grants eternal life, and
these acts coincide with baptism

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but are not caused by it.
OK, I'm trying to envision this.

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Can you give me an analogy?
Yeah.

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So let's say a man has a heart
attack while being baptized.

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Baptism doesn't 'cause it it
merely happened at the same

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time.
They just happened to be Co

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temporal.
OK, so an assessment of this

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view preserves divine
sovereignty.

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So God is choosing when it's
going to happen still cause

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baptism Sacramento, but it's in
a very thin sense of that word

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because it's not actually do
anything.

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God's doing something at the
same time, but it risks

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collapsing into figuralism with
righteous with religious timing

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attached to it.
So baptism's not really doing

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any work here, but something is
happening.

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Like, OK, I'm going to choose to
be baptized.

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God chooses that time to act.
OK, I see.

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So it you can still say it's
sacrament, but it's almost like

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the thinnest way possible.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
You're not.

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You're not really committed.
You're like, I like to say

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sacrament, but I'm not going
full Catholic.

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I'm not.
Going full Catholic never go

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full.
Catholic.

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OK, gotcha.
Understood.

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Full Roman Catholic, all right.
Second view.

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Is the instrumental causation a
little bit stronger?

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The claim is water is the
instrument God uses to confer

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grace.
God is still the primary cause.

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Water baptism is just a means.
It's a secondary means.

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So what happens?
God works through the water, but

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the water itself has no inherent
saving power.

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But it conveys God's action.
OK.

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No analogy, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right.

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So the the analogy that when
when Craig gives like if

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lightning hit while you were
being baptized, there's no power

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in the water.
The power's in the lightning,

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but the water conducts.
It's a conduit for that power to

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get to you.
So in the same way I'll often

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think of like a scalpel, like
there's no power in the scalpel.

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It's an instrument that the
surgeon uses.

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So the surgeon is the the
efficient cause, but the scalpel

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is like the the instrument that
that he's using to do whatever

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he's doing.
Surgery.

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So it's like people that are
like guns kill people or do

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people kill people?
Yeah, it's instrument.

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So when we assess this one, this
is classic Sacramento language,

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not coming from a, you know,
presbytery or, you know,

229
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,360
Catholic or Anglican.
I wouldn't know that.

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00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,160
So I just had to take Craig's
word for it.

231
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280
Yeah, sure.
It avoids saying water has any

232
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,120
magical properties or financial
properties, but it still faces

233
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,560
problems with timing and
exceptions because someone

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00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:50,720
doesn't.
Do this.

235
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:55,800
That's bad, bad news.
Yeah, or like if you first like

236
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,480
the thief on the cross or
someone who's going to get

237
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,360
baptized and they're martyred on
the way.

238
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,040
So that was like that.
There were some specific

239
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,800
exceptions they had cause Thief
on the cross is kind of like

240
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,160
that.
They, you know, the exempt.

241
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,880
Law.
It's a go to example.

242
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:16,360
Yeah.
But then they also came up with,

243
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,160
what if someone was going to be
baptized and on the way, you

244
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,200
know, they met persecution and
they were martyred, would they

245
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,560
still go to heaven?
And they're like, yeah, 'cause

246
00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:29,000
he was baptized in the blood,
Like he had every intention of

247
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,920
being baptized.
But then they're like, well,

248
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,120
what about someone who was on
its way to be baptized and just

249
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,720
happened to be accidentally
killed?

250
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,800
It wasn't martyr before his
faith, but maybe he was gored on

251
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,760
the way.
Like should he go to hell?

252
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,640
So they, they, they started,
they started making all these

253
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,240
exceptions and it really
weakened this realist view.

254
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,640
Well.
Man, let's get let's get to the

255
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:51,520
strongest.
Strongest proximate causation.

256
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,880
The claim is that God gives the
water itself an inherent causal

257
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,080
capacity.
Baptism.

258
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,160
Water baptism is a proximate
cause of regeneration,

259
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,920
forgiveness, and life.
And what happens?

260
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,520
The water itself confers its
saving benefits.

261
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,520
And Craig's analogy here is the
water has an inherent power to

262
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,360
make you wet.
So when you get in water, you

263
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:16,200
get wet.
That's true.

264
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,480
That's a property of the water.
And so in the same way, when you

265
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,800
are baptized, it's not merely an
instrument of God saving faith,

266
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,920
but God has imbued, you know,
saving this into the water, just

267
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,440
like wetness is into the water.
And so it directly causes the

268
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,120
effect of justification,
forgiveness to sentence

269
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,680
atonement.
This is obviously, like you

270
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:39,480
said, the strongest Sacramento
claim, most difficult to defend

271
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,800
biblically as you might suspect,
and it creates the most

272
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,400
theological pressure.
Man, so a lot of this hinges on

273
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,120
and this I, I admittedly do get
confused.

274
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,240
Sacramento versus non Sacramento
or means of grace.

275
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,440
What's what's a, what's an
ordinance, what's not?

276
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,880
How is praying different than
the Lord's Supper?

277
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,520
Or is it similar or cause?
And if I'm thinking of the

278
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,120
Lord's Supper, like if I put
what's upper baptism together

279
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:14,840
really where my head's at, I
wanna, I wanna say that it'd be

280
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,480
weird to say Christ is absence
from the Lord's Supper or you

281
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,200
know what I mean?
Like, like more than just a

282
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,320
symbol.
But I also would say, you know,

283
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,600
similar things to prayer and
reading the Bible and stuff.

284
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,560
Where to me, I do think
communion's a really important

285
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,480
thing and baptism is a really
important thing.

286
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,080
So I, I think it is a tricky
thing to where I don't know, I,

287
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,720
I always start with because I
don't want to give too little

288
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:38,760
importance.
So it would be like, yeah, it's,

289
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,520
it's just something you do and
it's like you do it once a month

290
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,960
and it's good to remember, but
you could remember that.

291
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,400
I mean, it's like, I don't know.
Yeah, I guess, like if you were

292
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,240
to like come up with the thought
experiment, like you have some

293
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,800
wine that's been blessed and
some unleavened bread that's

294
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,200
been blessed.
And the priest has gone through

295
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,000
all the stuff that you normally
do in a high Sacramento view of

296
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,920
the Lord's Supper, and you give
that to someone out on the

297
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,240
street.
Yeah, in their mind, it's the

298
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,760
substance of the bread and the
wine that convey the blessing.

299
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,200
And I, I'm sure there's some
Catholic that's like, oh, we've

300
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,360
already addressed this.
But, and so I'm sure there's

301
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,240
some explanation for it.
But in my mind, if the, if it is

302
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,320
attached to those things, then
you wouldn't necessarily have to

303
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,520
be in the right mindset to
receive the, the grace from

304
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,880
that.
But I think for you and me, it's

305
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,360
all it's, it's a much about the
mindset of remembering Jesus

306
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,120
sacrifice, remembering our sin,
remembering what he went

307
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,840
through, you know, on, you know,
the crucifixion on the cross.

308
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,120
And, and so in that way, I think
Jesus is with us 'cause we're

309
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,520
obeying what he's and, and we're
mentally there.

310
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:59,720
And so he does partake with us,
but it's not, you know, at most

311
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,040
it's an instrument, but but I
would say it's not even it like

312
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:11,120
it's just the the thing that
helps us as people focus on the

313
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,800
truths and it's the truths that
God bless.

314
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,600
Us yeah, yeah.
Versus the action yeah, yeah,

315
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,440
yeah, I and it's it's always
confusing too.

316
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,960
If you like really talked to and
I'm going to get all the

317
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,200
nomenclature wrong where you
talk to Lutherans or things like

318
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,160
that.
I've, I've heard, you know,

319
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,200
maybe Anglican and Lutheran's,
maybe Presbyterians say things

320
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,120
like, you know, my child is
saved because they've been

321
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,800
baptized.
But they don't mean they they

322
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,560
mean it.
They'll use like that from hell.

323
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,360
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
And it's like, well, you know,

324
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,920
part of the, you know, the
visible church, you know what I

325
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:49,760
mean?
Doesn't necessarily.

326
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,760
And and it's this is where it
gets all anyway we can.

327
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,920
Let's talk more Sacramento verse
9 Sacramento.

328
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:01,080
Yeah, so to be to be fair, Craig
kind of double s back on his own

329
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,800
definition in the podcast what
that he does.

330
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,680
So I think if you're being
playing it very straight, if you

331
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119
say Sacramento, it just means it
is an actual means of grace.

332
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,560
God blesses you that.
And if it's non Sacramento, then

333
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,599
it does not by itself convey a
means of grace.

334
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:24,160
And so to the figurative view
lines up as non Sacramento.

335
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,599
So we're saying it is not an
actual means of grace by itself.

336
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,480
I don't think Craig would argue
with us saying, but the Lord is

337
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,520
with us because we are thinking
about salvation and we're doing

338
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,800
this to his honor and glory.
And he would say, yes, he's

339
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,840
joining in with that faith.
And in fact, he does mention all

340
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,880
the good things that the Bible
does associate with baptism.

341
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,320
And he says all the same things
are said about faith and

342
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,000
trusting in Christ.
And so is it the act of baptism

343
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,920
or is it the faith that's there
that's really has the blessing

344
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:03,280
bestowed on it and, and baptism
just happens to be something

345
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,880
that we're doing in conformance
with what we're commanded to do,

346
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,800
but an expression of the faith
that actually is?

347
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,360
If you're, if you're living life
rightly, you're just naturally

348
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,680
going to do these things.
And it does.

349
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,400
It's like where it gets tricky.
It's like if OK, at some of you,

350
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,400
you're going to, if you're a
quote, UN quote, good Christian,

351
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,200
you're probably going to pray
and read the Bible.

352
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,280
What's that mean?
Is that a sacrament?

353
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,400
Does it mean you read your Bible
once a week and call it a day?

354
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,720
Should you read it every day?
It's like, no, you need to read

355
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,080
it 20 hours a day.
Or like there's some limits to

356
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,480
this stuff.
And I guess that would probably

357
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,640
carry over where I'm guessing if
you were in a Lutheran Church,

358
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,880
you're you're probably having
the Lord's Supper frequently

359
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,640
versus like a Baptist Church
might be like, we'll do it every

360
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,640
now and then kind of thing that
kind of bleeds into how

361
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,160
important you're like, it's in
there and we'll check the box.

362
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,720
But it's not something we're
prioritizing or emphasizing.

363
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,400
All right so historical pressure
on Sacramento realism William

364
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,440
and Craig's critique early
church affirm necessity a

365
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,880
baptism but immediately
compromise it with exceptions

366
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,600
Steph on the cross baptism blood
we talked about if you're

367
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,640
martyred on the way to be
baptized baptism desire.

368
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,640
So I was I was on my way to be
baptized, but I was accidentally

369
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:26,440
killed.
And so he says this undermines,

370
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,360
you know, the, the idea that
baptism is necessary for

371
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:36,120
justification, not that he
would, he would say if you are

372
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,440
saved, you should be baptized,
but it's, but it's not the

373
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,680
justification part of it.
And so the his diagnosis is that

374
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,560
there are these are kind of ad
hoc, ad hoc escape clauses.

375
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,000
And but if they are true, then
they can see that saving faith

376
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,960
can exist without water baptism.
And I think almost all

377
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,280
Protestants would feel pretty
close with that, Right?

378
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:03,960
Right.
That's a pretty, like, benign

379
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,080
statement.
Like OK.

380
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,400
There are some, you know, other
issues.

381
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,160
Infant baptism faith is a
necessary prerequisite, right

382
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,400
where we would fall.
So people believed and were

383
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,000
baptized.
Infants can't repent.

384
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,120
The result of infant baptism,
especially on a Sacramento view,

385
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,000
is that churches are filled with
unregenerate people.

386
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,680
So you have people who went
through infant baptism.

387
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,240
They believe they're saved in
some real sense, but they're

388
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:35,720
not.
Really.

389
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:36,400
They're not?
Yeah.

390
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,960
Yeah, So what Craig would
propose is even Sacramento

391
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,200
tradition should delay baptism
baptized when a person confesses

392
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,240
faith and then preserve the
seriousness without abandoning

393
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,920
the tradition wholesale.
Does he, does he speak on that

394
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,040
anymore?
Is it just like personal

395
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,680
confession is good or is there,
you know, some traditions you're

396
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,240
like, Hey, go through this
baptism or catechism class so

397
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,360
you like can articulate your
your face and people are like,

398
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:07,800
Hey, you say you confess it.
Let's get you baptized that day.

399
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,720
We're getting the pull out.
Yeah, I've been listening to

400
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,880
Dusty Slaymore.
He has a podcast.

401
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:13,640
Do you?
Do you know who?

402
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,040
Dusty Slaymore, Who he?
Is, Yeah.

403
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,840
And he's a believer, actually.
Yeah.

404
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,280
Yeah, yeah.
And he's at that time like he

405
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,960
they said the words let's drive
to water and get them baptized.

406
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,400
I don't, I don't.
Craig didn't directly address

407
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,280
it, so I have to suppose what
how he would answer.

408
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,400
I don't think you'd have an
issue as long as it's not like a

409
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,920
three-year confirmation period
like he would say.

410
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,320
You should make sure the guy is
really a believer, you know, go

411
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,440
through some something.
It doesn't have to be that day.

412
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,760
I sure.
I think you'd be fine with a

413
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,320
week or two week, whatever.
'Cause it's, and I think we

414
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,640
talked about this before, if you
go to like Mark Debor 9 marks,

415
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,880
he's like, you got to be 18 out
of your parents house living on

416
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,040
your own, 'cause you're just
doing what your parents want you

417
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,200
to do.
I think if you listen to like a

418
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,200
John Piper, he's like, you know,
once you're 12 or 13, we'll put

419
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,600
you through a new members kind
of class.

420
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,040
You go through that, we'll make
it happen.

421
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,480
You know, new spring elevation,
Mark Driscoll.

422
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,520
It's like, let's let's make it
happen right away.

423
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:16,760
We're not going to talk to you
at all.

424
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,720
You say, well, visa, let's do it
like we're not.

425
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,160
And then, you know, everything
in in between.

426
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,920
And you know, if it's like, you
know, we trust the parents, that

427
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,320
kind of thing.
And you know, they can

428
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,840
articulate their faith good
enough based on their age will

429
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,880
take it.
And I know it's so specific, you

430
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,680
know?
Yeah, for me, it's almost like

431
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,600
I'm discouraging them to get
baptized.

432
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,560
I know 'cause.
You, yeah, 'cause I get it to

433
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,760
where it's like Mark Devers,
like, well, there's a lot of

434
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,960
kids when they're 15, they're
12, it's like, fine.

435
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,000
But then they go off on college.
It's like where they really,

436
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,040
it's like, let them.
But it's like, it is weird to

437
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,520
discourage people, you know, for
that long.

438
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:50,680
They'll be like, no.
No, no, no, no.

439
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,080
I don't mean like literally
discourage them.

440
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:53,960
I'm like, well, why do you want
to get baptized?

441
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,040
Oh, you're saying?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

442
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,600
And then if they, if they don't
give me a, a biblical base

443
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,600
answer, then I'm like, well,
you're probably not ready.

444
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,840
Let's just think of like this.
Yeah.

445
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,680
So the decisive biblical
argument in Acts, Craig's

446
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,240
strongest exegetical claim, and
Acts water baptism and Spirit

447
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,560
baptism never coincide.
Sometimes Spirit baptism comes

448
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,960
before water, as in Acts 10.
Sometimes Spirit comes after

449
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,040
water baptism, but never
simultaneously.

450
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,800
So this is a good demonstration
that baptism probably is not the

451
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,560
means by which that's happening.
So baptism is not the cause,

452
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,360
it's not the occasion, it's not
the instrument, it's not the

453
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:36,000
proximate cause of regeneration
or the Spirit baptism.

454
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,560
So this decisively undermines
all realistic models, not just

455
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,800
the strongest ones.
And so where Craig would land,

456
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,040
as he would say, faith is
fundamental, all baptism

457
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,880
benefits are also attributed to
faith alone.

458
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,800
Where I mentioned that baptism
is culmination of conversion,

459
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,520
the expression of saving faith,
the public identification with

460
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,920
Christ and the Church, Baptism
does not save, but the saved

461
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,520
should be baptized.
I think we'd all agree with all

462
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:03,800
that.
That's.

463
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,120
Good.
And you could probably plug in,

464
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,120
yeah, a lot of things in that,
you know, something like

465
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,400
probably this won't save you.
Well, definitely this won't save

466
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,520
you.
But if you're saying you should

467
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:14,440
be doing.
These things, yeah.

468
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,520
So in conclusions, there are no
unbaptized believers.

469
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,400
There should be no unbaptized
believers.

470
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,760
There are unbaptized.
Believers, that's right.

471
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,680
What would you be?
Would you go as far to be like,

472
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,520
I am concerned about this
person's salvation because they

473
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,240
are not baptized 'cause that is
a red flag?

474
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,760
I mean, depending on the reason,
it'd be like, why aren't you

475
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,080
getting baptized if God commands
it like you're living a

476
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,880
unrepentant sin?
Let's take two cases.

477
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,000
Let's take the case of someone
who was born into a family where

478
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,120
they baptized babies and then
has really come to faith after.

479
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,640
Like we will, Oh yeah, this
person's a believer and they're

480
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,800
like, I'm already baptized.
I disagree with it, but I

481
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,040
wouldn't say you're not a
believer versus the case where

482
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,360
someone's like, I believe
Christ, Oh, that you should be

483
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,480
baptized.
Nah, I don't want to do that.

484
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,160
I'm like, why don't you want to
do that?

485
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,880
That would that would I wouldn't
say you're not saved, but I'll

486
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,320
go why I would have my that
would be a conversation.

487
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,120
Yeah.
And that 'cause it, it would be

488
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,600
I, I agree.
It'd be like, I know it's hard,

489
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,080
like at what point?
At what?

490
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,840
You can't judge someone's heart,
but at what?

491
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,280
You know what other clear,
unrepentant sins would be like?

492
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:32,880
OK, slash, not OK, Yeah.
Baptism is an act of obedience,

493
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,520
like we said, not it's not
optional.

494
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,320
Disagreements over baptism are
secondary for the most part.

495
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,400
They can't get pushed in the
primary and should be handled

496
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,720
with charity.
Baptism should unite believers

497
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,400
to Christ's body, not divide
them.

498
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,520
So So what we just kind of
summary recap talked about two

499
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,000
major views.
Figurative realist,

500
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,920
figuratively, we said the symbol
only realist.

501
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,840
We said occasional instrumental
and approximate causation.

502
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,920
And so those get stronger like
hey, just at the same time

503
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,120
versus God uses it versus God
has imbued it to to do those

504
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,920
things.
And Craig, I think, and us to

505
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,400
reject all realist models on
biblical grounds, but we affirm

506
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,920
the baptism is necessary for
obedience, not necessary for

507
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,040
salvation, essential for
Christian discipline and church

508
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,080
identity.
Film, There you go.

509
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,480
Yeah.
You need, need baptism to have a

510
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,160
church at some level, right.
Baptism is kind of the door into

511
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,400
the church.
You know what I mean?

512
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:32,680
Yeah.
Yeah.

513
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,480
Where it's weird if your church
is made-up of unbaptized belief

514
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,800
or things like that is, you
know, interesting.

515
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,880
But that, that that's good
baptism.

516
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,560
I was baptized on Easter Sunday.
Yeah, it's my time.

517
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,400
To fame, I was.
Yeah, that's.

518
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,080
Good, that's good.
And I think he'd get like bonus

519
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,320
points of view baptism like.
Really.

520
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,560
I was dunked twice and baptized
once.

521
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,440
Nice.
I like that man Dunked.

522
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,400
You know that's.
Because I it wasn't true

523
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,040
baptism.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

524
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:04,840
You know, there you go.
That's the that's always the

525
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,080
knock from the Presbyterians,
like Baptists are getting

526
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,400
baptized every, every fifth
year.

527
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,240
It's time for another baptism.
What wasn't the baptism?

528
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,400
It wasn't that was there wasn't
anything wrong with the baptism.

529
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,680
Is something wrong with my faith
on the inside?

530
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,560
Yeah.
There is going back the Donatist

531
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:24,960
controversy.
Have you heard of this?

532
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,640
It's like way back in church
history.

533
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,600
I think they were trying to
figure out, OK, you were

534
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:38,000
baptized by does who you were
baptized by impact your baptism.

535
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,240
Oh yeah, I know, I know the the
doctrine just didn't know by.

536
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,600
That name, Yeah, where I, you
know, I think some priests

537
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,720
recanted their faith and people
were like, oh, am I saved?

538
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,000
Like this guy, you know, wasn't.
And they landed on.

539
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,840
If you were baptized with a
Trinitarian formula, you're good

540
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,320
to go.
Or even I think to this day,

541
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,640
like.
So if you were in Mark Devers

542
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,920
Church and you were baptized in
a Catholic Church, if you're

543
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,360
baptized in a Presbyterian
Church sprinkled, you need to be

544
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:07,520
baptized.
That's right.

545
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,440
If you were baptized, I, I
believe if you're baptized in a

546
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Catholic Church and then you're
a Presbyterian Church, like, oh,

547
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,000
you're baptized in eternity,
good to go.

548
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,280
We're going to keep that even
though we don't affirm

549
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,280
Catholicism.
It's not the person, it's the

550
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,720
baptism.
So it gets kind of a little bit

551
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,360
weird with some of that stuff.
You know, yeah, there was some

552
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,720
Dionysies or something that had
mistranslated the Latin ohh boy.

553
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,200
And so they were saying the
rights wrong.

554
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,880
They had like A and so it, it
called into question all these

555
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,760
baptisms they had done like,
'cause they weren't, it wasn't

556
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,000
formulated.
I'm sure they were saying all

557
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,200
the major words, right?
But it's like, yeah, this one

558
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,120
small word that they got wrong.
Is wild man can never be too

559
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,640
safe, yeah.
Go back and get re baptized,

560
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,920
man.
Which leads us to our our

561
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,880
sermon, our episode a week from
today.

562
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,280
Yeah, talk about Mormonism.
Mormonism.

563
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,600
They get baptized for the dead.
Boom, get baptized for the dead.

564
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,320
If we are, we are we.
Can we transition?

565
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,480
To our Yeah, we can transition
to the last take.

566
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,360
The last take, I grew up next to
a Mormon temple, like probably

567
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,280
like maybe like a mile or a mile
and a half down the road.

568
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,520
So we had the Mormons were
always knocking on our door all

569
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,920
the time or walking around.
So it's always, always a good

570
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,040
time.
I was like a little, I was like,

571
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,840
not little, but you know,
teenager just loved to loved to

572
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,560
argue and guess what?
Never went anywhere between them

573
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,600
and us.
Like I'd be like, what about

574
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:28,760
this?
And I'd say a quote about that

575
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,320
and we would never.
I grew up with Mormons, but like

576
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,440
there was a family that I was
pretty close with and they'd

577
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,760
lived right down the street,
played with them and I didn't.

578
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:43,360
I, and this, I don't want to
steal our own Thunder, but you

579
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,920
can talk to a Mormon and say the
same words and go, oh, we agree

580
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,720
on everything and not realize
that the meaning behind those

581
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,880
words is different.
I, I was in the Navy for some

582
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,480
reason, at least when I was
there at Naval Nuclear Power

583
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,560
Training Command, maybe half wow
to somewhere between a third and

584
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,880
a half.
The people, they were Mormon,

585
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,800
man.
It was a lot 'cause I think you,

586
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,360
you just recruit a lot out of
BYU or, you know, and you just

587
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,160
get a, get a lot of stream
coming out of there.

588
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:20,560
But I rode down to Kings Bay,
GA, with two other guys, Pond

589
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,280
and Bird.
I'll just say their last names,

590
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,880
both Mormon.
And we talked about Mormon

591
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,320
theology all the way down there.
And I had a bunch of questions

592
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,200
and I was like, yeah, they're
believers, 'cause I never,

593
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,920
that's so crazy that they were,
and this is me like asking a lot

594
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,320
of questions.
But they were good enough to

595
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,600
like give me those surface level
answers that I'm sure they

596
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,240
learned when they were out on
their mission.

597
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,280
No, no disrespect to them.
That.

598
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,280
And they didn't dive down into
the deeper stuff that we'll get

599
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,040
into, dude.
Can't wait.

600
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,480
I did sit in front of or behind
Mormons on a plane one time.

601
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,920
I told this story and it was
great.

602
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,680
It was a brother and sister and
they were like late teens, early

603
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,760
20s or something.
And they were, they're on the

604
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,760
fight.
And they're like, I won't tell

605
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,080
Mama if you want gonna get some
coffee.

606
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,480
Like it's great.
And they got there drinking all

607
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,000
the caffeine and they were
sneaking it and they were having

608
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,120
a great time.
It was good.

609
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,680
So that was funny.
But yeah, you know, Mormon is a

610
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,840
man.
I feel like the classic rap on

611
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,840
Mormons are like, they are the
best people.

612
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,640
You know you're not there.
Like, yeah, that's.

613
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,440
Exactly, exactly.
Slash, are you familiar with

614
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720
Scott Sterling?
He's Scott.

615
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,520
Sterling yeah.
Studio C Yeah, yeah.

616
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,280
Studio C is a lot of Mormons.
Yeah, it's true.

617
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now going back to the caffeine

618
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,560
pond, Just leave it at pond, OK.
He and his wife, they were like,

619
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,360
yo, yeah.
That was like our families were

620
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,920
like on different sides of the
valley in Utah.

621
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,240
And the Mormons on that side of
the valley where his wife were,

622
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,600
they had basically said that the
caffeine and stuff did no longer

623
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,520
reply to us.
So she grew up drinking Pepsi.

624
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,200
Nice, yeah.
Hot chocolates and stuff.

625
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,000
We were like, no, you can't have
any of that stuff.

626
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,880
So man, it is, it is wild.
Good stuff.

627
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,320
I'm excited to get into this
cult series, Not get into this

628
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,240
cult, don't not get into any
cults.

629
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,080
I've been as well.
Welcome to the Pads.

630
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,000
Honestly, you're not wrong.
I was going, yeah, some sports

631
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,960
stuff, man, you get, you get
sucked in, it's good.

632
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,560
Well, great.
Anything else you got?

633
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,160
That's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

634
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,360
Two.
Find us wherever you find

635
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,880
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

636
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,560
video cast.