Cults | Eastern Orthodoxy: Theology, Authority, and Practice

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We're back at it.
Yeah, we said.

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We're the last one, might be the
last one.

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But we are a glutton for
punishment 'cause those comments

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come after us.
The comments someone commented

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like do Eastern Orthodox next so
I was like hey makes sense we

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just did the Catholic Church so.
I, I think it's time to, you

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know, I think you do hear of,
you know, people gravitating

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towards Eastern Orthodoxy a
little bit.

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You know, I always see these
articles that like men in

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particular, and it's like that
high church.

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Bells and smells.
Yeah, Yeah, There you go.

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Exactly.
Yeah, I can't think of the

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Eastern Orthodox without
thinking of that video.

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The enviro probably around 2010
of these old guys carrying the

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statue, I assume of Mary.
Do you know what I'm talking

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about?
I don't know.

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I thought I did, but now I
don't.

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What did you think of the
dunking of a child though?

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I don't.
Know what it was, but babies

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were like going under and no one
was concerned except for me.

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No, I'm thinking they this they
were carrying this large statue,

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which we're going to talk about
iconography a little bit.

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And this guy is like going to
move it all.

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He is.
He's like, oh, now he's like 89.

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OK, yeah.
And he is starting to be smooth

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with how he moves it off his
shoulder and stuff.

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But that thing comes and then it
just boom and that statue hits

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the ground and like shatters.
And all the people are like all

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the all the people in the
comments were like talking about

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Dagon and and Oh yeah, yeah,
should be worshipping an idol

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and so.
Yeah, You know, I don't know if

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they're, I don't know how
closely related they're to the

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Catholic Church.
I shouldn't say this pejorative,

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but it's like, I feel like we
can always find another relic

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somewhere.
The Catholic Church's like and

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we just found Jesus's this.
In the Middle Ages, probably not

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so much.
It's yeah.

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What was the what was the quote
that if you had like all of the

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wood of Jesus cross?
It build the ark you.

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Can build the ark, yeah, that's
great.

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Good business model probably to,
you know, sell these things,

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maybe not, you know.
And all the bones of different

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things.
Yeah, yeah.

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All right, well, we should give
our normal caveats.

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We are talking cults in the
academic sense, not in a

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pejorative or in the
psychological sense where you're

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mind controlling.
So, and we're not necessarily

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saying we haven't declared
whether we think Eastern

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Orthodox falls under the
umbrella of cult or not, but in

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order to do that, you we were
saying like clearly Mormons,

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Jehovah's Witnesses, cults, like
they have heretical doctrines,

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but they still call themselves
Christians and that's the

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definition of cult that we're
using.

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So, and as always, if we get
something wrong, let us know.

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We want to we're.
Not above.

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Yeah, that's right.
We'll, we'll, we're not above

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correction and we'll, we'll Duke
it out in the comments.

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The main thing that we're here
to talk about are highlighting

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differences.
We will try to maybe argue for

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the Protestant way a little bit,
but even if we end up

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disagreeing, which we probably
will on some things, it's the

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differences that we are
highlighting.

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Good to go.
Good to go all.

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Right, and with that, we will
take it to the next level.

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Let's fire up that twang of
music.

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From the hearts of the Low
Country in South Carolina.

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It's the Take Two podcast where
we take theology to the next

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level, Eastern Orthodoxy.
And for this one, we're going to

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kind of follow the same format
that we've done for the last few

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where we're going to talk about
theology, proper Christology,

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soteriology, and then bibliology
slash authority.

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And then finally, we'll wrap up
with anything that's kind of odd

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or just doesn't fall underneath
those categories nicely.

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So just some background for some
of our listeners who may or may

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not be as familiar with Eastern
Orthodoxy.

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I don't think we see a lot of it
in.

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It's not everyday, yeah.
There was an acquaintance at

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Northwood, I won't say any
names, whose son went to college

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with some Eastern Orthodox at
CSU and CSU.

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The hot pen, The Eastern.
Orthodox, yeah, it's just like

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man.
So Eastern Orthodoxity and Roman

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Catholicism, 'cause they do
share a lot, basically the same

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church history for the 1st 1000
years it's.

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A good run.
Yeah, yeah, same ecumenical

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councils, the first seven it's.
More than a lot of Protestants

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would agree on.
Same creedal foundation.

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The split occurs at the East
West schism. 1054 big year.

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There you go.
And the key differences from

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Catholicism, Rome centralized
authority in the Pope where

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Eastern Orthodoxy decentralized.
And then there's this communion

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of bishops called the
patriarchs, and there's no like

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single head of the church.
So structurally, Rome has

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centralized authority and
Eastern Orthodoxy has

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distributed authority.
Both of them still reject Sola

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Scriptura which we will talk
about in Part 4.

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Yeah, it is interesting.
Like the East West divide, a

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Latin verse Greek.
And I don't, I wish I knew the

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history better over this split.
But I know there was like, I

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feel like people just kept like
excommunicating each other like,

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you know what I mean?
All those times like you're

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activated, you're excommunicated
and you know.

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What a wild time.
You can't excommunicate me

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'cause I quit, man.
Yeah.

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Exactly.
But that's good because, you

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know, you think about it.
How is it the same as

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Catholicism?
How is it different?

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That's great.
Let's get into Doctrine.

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Doctrine.
So theology proper.

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Basically, the theology of God,
and here fully trinitarian,

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would affirm the Nicene Creed
and Nicene Orthodoxy.

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So, so similar to Catholics in
that regard, where it's like,

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man, we're pretty rock solid for
for the most part.

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There is this difference.
It is the.

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I'm gonna let you say it.
Oh, close.

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Filioque.
I get the accent wrong,

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Filioque.
I just know, you know.

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Big difference when you add and
the Son, the spirit proceeds

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spyrates proceeds not just from
the Father, but also the son.

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That is Roman Catholicism,
that's Protestantism I think

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would say the the same thing.
And the East was not having it.

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They're saying spirits proceeds
Spyrates from the Father alone,

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not from the Son.
And I was thinking through

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different because we just read
off air.

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Well I'll read it John 1526.
I have it right here.

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It says when the helper comes,
AKA the Spirit AKA the Paraclete

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whom I will.
So this is Jesus speaking, whom

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I will send to you from the
Father.

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That is the Spirit of truth who
proceeds from the Father.

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He will testify about me.
So we at least know he proceeds

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from the Father.
But there are also places, and

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maybe we should look this up
where the Spirit of Christ is

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this the the Holy Spirit is
basically given the name of the

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Spirit of Christ, like the
Spirit of Christ is with you

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type of thing.
And I think it's clear that it's

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the the Holy Spirit that's being
talked about.

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I don't know.
I don't know what doctrinal

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anything doctrinal with of
gravitas rest on this like I

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it'd be hard for me to press
that either one of these like

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oh, if you don't believe that he
proceeds from both, then you're

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heretical.
Maybe I'm.

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Missing something?
It's like confusing and I know

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when John not too far from where
you read Jesus is like, if I go

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away, it's to your advantage
because I'm going to send the

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helper to you.
And it's like a lot of this.

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I, I know the the tricky part is
the Nicene Creed did not

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originally say and the sun when
it was written, it was further

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to try to, you know, clean up
some loose ends, Trinitarian

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combat, Arianism, all, all of
these things that was added and

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it was out of the here and there
and then officially adopted.

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And really that was kind of in
the undertones leading up to

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this great schism that that was
was a really, really big deal.

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I wish.
I wish I knew the history more

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old.
But the good news is this is the

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only thing where they would
differ from Catholicism and most

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of Protestism.
Protestant.

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Yeah, Protestant.
Words are hard.

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They are US who protested out of
the Catholic Church.

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That's right.
This is not the, this is not

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what the the hill we're going to
die on.

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This is this is this is small
potatoes.

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All right, next section of
doctrine Christology talking

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about Jesus himself, both
Catholicism and Eastern

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Orthodox.
And I can't say it productism

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fully affirm God.
I can hear it, but I can't say

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it fully that Jesus is fully
God, fully manned.

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And they affirm the Caledonian
definition.

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So we're good, all good there.
Yeah.

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Soteriology, this is where.
So soteriology and authority is

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where we're gonna start to see
some breaks between Protestants

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and Eastern Orthodox.
So shared with Rome.

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They would not say that you have
justification by faith alone, so

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they would not affirm that.
I wonder what they if they've

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weighed in on the Council of
Trent that athematizes,

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anathematizes anyone who would
say that.

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Similar to Rome, they would say
salvation is a process.

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They have a Sacramento system.
Very high view of sacraments,

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that's right.
Grace is mediated through the

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Church, so some of the Orthodox
distinctives less legal, more

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transformational.
So there's an infamous emphasis

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on theosis.
This is participating in the

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divine life.
So it's like our walk with God.

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That walk helps us.
It's very similar to, you know,

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the where we would say we have
imputed right righteousness.

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Then the Catholics would say,
what's the word that they use?

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Infused.
Infused righteousness, it's very

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similar to to that.
Less focus on guilt and legal

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standing, more focus on the
healing and restoration.

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Like a East West thing.
I mean, it's, it's like, I feel

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like it's a little bit harder to
relate to just from this Western

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tradition.
And so much is like is based on

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guilt and penal substitution.
And it's just like it makes

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sense in the court of law.
And it's just so ingrained, I

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think our Western side.
But but I know you're turning

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there that this passage, this,
this is a perplexing passage the

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way it's worded.
Like if you've ever, you know,

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come across it, it is said kind
of strangely.

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Yeah, so I'll just read this is
second Peter one.

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I'll read the intro and then
there are key passage happens in

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4, but I think it's good to have
the context.

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Simon Peter, a bondservant and
apostle Jesus Christ of those

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who have received the faith of
the same kind as ours by the

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righteousness of our God and
Savior Jesus Christ.

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Grace and peace be multiplied to
you in the knowledge of God and

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of Jesus our Lord, seeing that
His divine power has granted to

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us everything pertaining to life
and godliness through the true

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knowledge of Him who called us
by His own glory and excellence.

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Here's our key verse.
For by these things He has

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granted to us His precious and
magnificent promises, so that by

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them you may become partakers of
the divine nature, having

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escaped the corruption that is
in the world by lust.

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Yeah, that, that divine nature I
think can catch people off off

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guard.
And if you are reading really

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like any study Bible, they'll do
a good job of being like divine

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nature, you know, not saying
like ontologically being like

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God.
You know, it's more, you know,

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it's like, you know, these kind
of distinctions, not deity.

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Well, Paul would say in Rome
that God works everything to for

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your good for those who are
called, you know, we get that

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golden chain and then he'll say
I he doesn't he doesn't say and

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that good is.
But if you read the flow of a

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thought, I think he is basically
saying and that good is your

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transformation into the image of
Christ.

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So I.
Think we're getting at that's a,

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that's A and I think you see
that framework like over and

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over.
So it makes sense versus the

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00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,360
second Peter and it talks about,
you know, what happens through

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00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,800
embracing the promises and and
these kind of things.

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If you read second Peter, you
don't get this idea that you're

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gonna become, you know, a a
deity of some sort, but that

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you're it's transformation by
the spirit.

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00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,520
Yeah, exactly.
So I think that that is really

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important.
How I can take like one verse

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and like not look at the rest of
Scripture and it's like man so

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00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,960
much whenever.
We're highlighting one verse and

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not reading in the context of
the rest of the scripture to

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00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,720
help us understand it.
That's probably problematic.

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Red flag.
Yeah.

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00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,720
So Rome has a more defined
system.

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You've talked about the Council
of Trent stored up merit in the

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00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,000
different categories of grace
Orthodoxy has.

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00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,920
It's less systematized, it's a
more mystical.

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00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,840
I think that's the that's like a
draw to it.

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00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,880
Like I think people they leave
Protestantism for like Roman

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00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,000
Catholicism.
It's like more mystical and if

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00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,960
you really want to keep and then
you know, this is different, but

246
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,360
but there's a lot of.
Important chants, too.

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00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,600
It seems like they do.
Yeah, yeah.

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00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,560
These kind of things where, you
know, I think that's like for

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some people, there's like this
draw to it.

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So our concern here would be
highlighted Galatians 216 A man

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00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,560
is not justified by works, but
through faith.

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If justification is not clearly
distinguished from

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00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,000
sanctification, the gospel
becomes unclear because it's.

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00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,320
It's like this distinction
between am I working to be

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00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,720
saved, or am I working because I
am saved?

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00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,680
Yes, big.
A couple different words, but a

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00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,840
huge different meaning.
Yeah, yeah.

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00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:13,680
And so when when we walk and
talk and teach people that you

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00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:18,840
work to be saved, then you fall
into Galatians chapter one.

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What is it, verse 8 or 9, where
you are adding to the salvation

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00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,000
method?
And we said this over and over

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00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,280
again, Paul said, if me or even
an Angel come down here, we give

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00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,240
you any other gospel, that
person is a cursed.

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00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,320
Strong language.
Very strong language.

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00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,880
Romans, he would say, you know,
it's if it's of grace, it's not

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00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,240
of works.
And if it's works, it's not of

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00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,080
grace.
So, you know, so we kind of hit

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00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,440
that drum over and over again.
But it's huge.

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00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,040
Obviously, it's what Martin
Luther, what got him, you know,

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00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,920
all fired up, almost literally,
yeah.

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00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaking of what could get you
fired up, you know, authority

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00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,040
like what what are you?
What are you going to live and

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00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,440
die on?
Parallels, you know, tells us

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00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,600
about that we told because both
reject this so scriptura that

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00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,880
the Protestants are going to be
rallying around.

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00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,680
We've said this before when we
had one, but when we say sola

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00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,240
scriptura, that doesn't mean
that we don't think that there

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00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,640
are teachers that can help us
understand or that there are

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00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,400
good books or that we might even
look at, well, how did Erinaeus

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00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,600
understand this?
Or how did Ply carp understand

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00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,000
this or what a just the martyr
think?

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00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,200
We take all that into
consideration, but the buck

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00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,320
stops at Scripture.
That's the highest authority.

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00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,360
So if Scripture is clear on
something, and if even Agustin

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00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,880
himself says something that's
counter to scripture, we're

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00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,720
going to take scripture, right?
So that's what we mean by sola

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00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,080
scriptura.
Both Catholics and Eastern

288
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,400
Orthodox, they affirm Scripture
plus tradition.

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00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,480
Some of the differences.
For the Catholics, they had the

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00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,480
Magisterium or the teaching
office and the Pope as a final

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00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,680
authority.
For Eastern Orthodox, no single

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00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,960
central authority figure.
We talked about that upfront

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00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,520
authority can be found in
tradition, in the Council and in

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00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:22,440
church consistent consensus.
So practically you're trying to

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00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,280
look at the differences.
Rome's got all this centralized

296
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,160
interpretation.
It kind of rises and falls with

297
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,200
the Pope in Rome or Orthodoxy.
It's a little bit more more

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00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,440
dispersed, distributed.
But both of them would reject

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00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320
scripture as the final 40, which
seems such an odd place to be.

300
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,000
It does.
It does seem strange, very

301
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,520
strange.
I'm curious what what are some

302
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,080
other practices about Eastern
Orthodoxy?

303
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:56,160
Very nice segue into I
iconography man.

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00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,480
Statues.
So an Orthodoxy.

305
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,720
Orthodoxy.
They have a strong emphasis on

306
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,760
icons theologically defended via
the Incarnation.

307
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,880
They see it affirmed at the
Second Council of Nicaea, and

308
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,079
their practices include bowing,
kissing and lighting candles.

309
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,440
I love.
It you know, you think you think

310
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,680
of the Reformation, you look at
a a good Reformed Church and you

311
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,680
ain't seeing no pictures of no
one Like we're we're not seeing

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00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:28,119
Jesus up there because we're
we're especially in that time.

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00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,240
It's like we're having such a
separation and we'll even send

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00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,800
people in to break up the icons
at the Catholic Church.

315
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,160
And there were these like
reports of people destroying

316
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,840
icons because we don't want
images of Christ.

317
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,480
You know, we're, we're really
fighting against that.

318
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,280
And you can tell a big
difference between, I mean,

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00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,280
obviously, like you go to a
Catholic Church and it's like

320
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,440
everything is like so
constructed.

321
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,080
And then, you know, your classic
Reformed Church, you can have

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00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,040
beautiful construction, but it's
gonna look very different.

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00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,480
And then you even see like, you
know, a church like ours,

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00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,920
Charleston Bible Church, very
plain, like you sometimes see,

325
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,440
like a reaction against why are
we spending so much money on

326
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,880
these vaulted ceilings?
And, you know, different

327
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,240
traditions where, you know, a
Catholic would say, we've got to

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00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,880
make this.
We're entering the presence of

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00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,000
God.
You know what I mean?

330
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,720
It should feel.
Different it it should feel

331
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:17,720
different you should.
You should.

332
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,880
Feel like that there can be some
goodness there.

333
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,280
I think we can be extremes in
both, yeah.

334
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,280
Totally.
I think extremes in how you

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00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:30,800
interpret second commandment as
well.

336
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,920
Do you have do y'all?
Do y'all have nativities at your

337
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,480
house?
We do have nativities do.

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00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,880
You put baby Jesus out in.
The we, we we keep those

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00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,320
separate now we we, we, we do
overall, I'm not a big.

340
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,880
Your heart strings are kind of
tied into that a little bit, I

341
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,080
can tell.
When you talk, yeah, yeah.

342
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,920
I don't like love it, but I'm
not like anti against it.

343
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,480
If I had my way, I would
probably.

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00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,720
Just put sharpie over his face.
Refrain from having like

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00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,400
pictures of Jesus all through
like a worship service.

346
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:00,960
But I'm not like, you know, it's
not like the worst thing.

347
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,360
I'm like, oh, a picture of
Jesus.

348
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:04,160
What am I?
But if I, but I do notice this

349
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,640
majorly, if I, if I'm treating a
90 year old lady who is a

350
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,680
Catholic, when I walk into her
house, pictures of Jesus

351
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,960
everywhere.
Like it's like I know in my

352
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,800
first and second someone's
house, if they're Catholic and,

353
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,000
and they're a practicing
Catholic, it is like totally

354
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,080
evident compared to a
Protestant.

355
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:23,920
You know it.
Just, you know, seeing, seeing

356
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,920
the old.
Man praying over his bread.

357
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,160
There you go see that you see
you might, you might especially

358
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,400
in like the older generation,
you might walk in and see like

359
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,880
18 like random Bibles out or you
know, like a big emphasis on

360
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,840
having Bibles more so.
Or maybe you have like a, you

361
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,800
know, little Bible verse here
and there.

362
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,080
But man, someone who who is
probably Catholic everywhere.

363
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,840
But you can see the 'cause I do
have an appreciation for like a

364
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,440
church that is really
constructed like that is really

365
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,840
cool.
But you can see just how

366
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,160
traditions like shape, you know,
these these I.

367
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,040
Guess I would say I see the
second commandment as applicable

368
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,040
to the divine nature.
Oh yeah.

369
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,160
And so when you have a picture
of Christ, we're not trying to

370
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,960
depict his divine nature.
We're depicting his human

371
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,280
nature, which is fine.
Because we can depict the human

372
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,080
nature, we can't depict the
Anything that we try to use to

373
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,160
depict the divine nature will
always be, by definition, less

374
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:22,520
than and a distortion of and
falls fully flat of anything

375
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,640
that we could use to try to
capture the divine nature.

376
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,920
If you're, if you're in these
like, you know, social media

377
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,440
groups, it's great.
Someone will like post a picture

378
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,200
of like I, I wish I knew Star
Wars better, like Obi Wan or

379
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,120
something.
And someone will be like second

380
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:37,520
commandment violate.
Is it like is this second

381
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,880
commandment violate?
Is it, you know what I mean?

382
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,640
Like they're like trying to like
troll a little bit and do these

383
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:41,280
things.
It's great.

384
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,240
There's a woman in Brazil, I
believe, who had a picture of

385
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,520
Elrond, who is the elf in Lord
of the Rings.

386
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,600
Not a picture, a little statue.
And she thought it was like

387
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,840
Saint Joseph or something.
And she was praying to it for

388
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,200
years, and some missionary came
in and they took a picture of it

389
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,200
and it was Elrond.
Oh, no, because really the

390
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,400
reform, the, the argument, I
think I might have mentioned the

391
00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:59,920
argument.
They would think, you know, I

392
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,920
think it's different than what
you're saying because you're,

393
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,680
you know, talking about the
natures.

394
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,320
They would say if you see a
picture of Jesus and it and it

395
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,480
really looks like Jesus, you
should just feel compelled to

396
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,840
bow down at the second person of
eternity.

397
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,320
And if it doesn't, then it's
idolatry and you're making

398
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,760
Christ in your own image that
that's like what they would say

399
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,240
kind of thing.
Like those are the two options.

400
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,440
If it's like actually really
good and accurate and you should

401
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,400
worship it.
And if it's not, you should be

402
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,720
like, you can't, you can't have
that because it's idolatry.

403
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,440
It's so strange to me.
It's a pitcher, so I'm not

404
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,960
worshipping a pitcher.
When Jesus was alive, walking on

405
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,840
the earth, it wasn't as though
the only proper response was to

406
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,680
fall down and just stay down the
whole time like you saw people.

407
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:47,640
You wouldn't bow down and saw
Jesus.

408
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,680
No, I'm just, I'm not saying.
That I wouldn't bow down, but

409
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,840
I'm just saying that.
Into social media.

410
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,040
Clip.
I'm just saying you maybe bow

411
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,520
down initially and then he'd
say, all right, we got work to

412
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,400
do, get up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

413
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,040
yeah.
So yeah, that, that seems like

414
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,400
an odd take to me.
It seems like someone is

415
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,560
justifying their bad reaction.
They're justifying a, a, a bad

416
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,120
take to me.
To me.

417
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,480
All right, should we?
Should we move on?

418
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,280
I can talk about for 20 more
minutes.

419
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,360
I'm just kidding.
Yeah, let's move it on.

420
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:23,200
That's great.
So iconography, there is a

421
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,400
problem that you are in my mind,
yeah, yeah.

422
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,360
That you are bowing, bowing down
and kissing stuff because the.

423
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,320
Because it's not.
It's not the thing.

424
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,360
It's it's not.
So I, like I said, I don't have

425
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:40,360
a problem, you know, looking at
the shout Shroud of Turin and

426
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,200
looking at a face reconstructed
from that and thinking that's

427
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,240
probably what Jesus looked like,
but I'm not going to worship the

428
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,280
shroud or that image that
someone made because I'm

429
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,280
worshiping Christ alone.
I like it.

430
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,160
All right, prayer to the Saints.
We talked about this last time,

431
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,120
both traditions pray to the
Saints, ask for intercession.

432
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,840
We talked about God, Jesus being
the only mediator between God

433
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,720
and man.
And that is clearly in a

434
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,920
sociological sense, but I think
it also talks about

435
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,000
intercession, speaks to the
intercession.

436
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,280
And we see places like Romans 8
where we see the Spirit

437
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,960
interceding on our behalf, the
son in Hebrews 10 interceding on

438
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,480
our behalf.
So we don't really, we don't

439
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,520
need intercessors.
We talked last Thursday about

440
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,200
all the Old Testament.
Not a lot of positive

441
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,360
instruction. 0 positive.
A lot of negative about trying

442
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,360
to speak with the dead
Sacramento system.

443
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:47,440
Both have viewed baptismal as
having regenerational power.

444
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,880
Yeah, that'd be cool.
Yeah, but that true.

445
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,680
And then the Eucharist sustains.
So for each an Orthodox, you're

446
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,360
baptized, that cleanses the
Eucharist, sustains, and then

447
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,800
this theosis, this walk helps
you to grow in in in God's

448
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,120
likeness.
And we might talk about this

449
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,520
last time, but going back to
traditions, you walk into a

450
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,120
Catholic Church, the Mass is
like right there in the middle.

451
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,680
You walk into a good Protestant
church, the pulpit's in the

452
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,480
middle and the, and the
Eucharist is to the side.

453
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,840
And it's like very intentional,
but it's important, but it's not

454
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,280
kind of what's the what is
guiding your church kind of all.

455
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,800
Right.
And we kind of hit this, you

456
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,160
know, in general, Orthodoxy
tends to be less philosophically

457
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:33,160
defined 'cause there's more of
the, the Mystic experience of

458
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,800
God that's emphasized versus,
you know, Catholics tend to be

459
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,160
more liturgical than
Protestants.

460
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,280
You know, we're just teaching.
What does the Bible say?

461
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,720
We always nail it and there's
something to it where, you know,

462
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,600
I think in Protestantism, you
know, with all these things you

463
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,520
can probably run into like I'm
going to systematize every last

464
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,640
word and you'll you know, and
that's a problem, but it but

465
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,080
it's like it's good to know what
the text.

466
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:02,000
Says it is good the hope that
there are certain people not

467
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,640
listening to this, but the
precepts way of like.

468
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,440
Oh yeah.
Every time this word occurs in

469
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,320
this pat, like they'll go
through a whole book and they'll

470
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,360
like they have like this crazy
marking and to me that's I I'm

471
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,840
like, I feel like I'm more
focused on getting all my marks

472
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,800
right than just what does this
the text say?

473
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,080
I'm not saying that that can't
be helpful, and it can help you

474
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,520
find patterns, but man it it's
almost like the shots.

475
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,840
Fired.
You hate the precepts, people.

476
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,720
No, I'm just kidding.
I like to, you know, rile, rile

477
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,360
people up.
No, that's good.

478
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,280
So what are some more
differences between Roman

479
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:48,120
Catholicism?
And summary, no, no Pope and no,

480
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:54,080
you know, again, that has this
patriarchy of the the bishops.

481
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:01,800
I think that's good.
Anything else we want to say

482
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,720
about ether and Orthodox
Eastern?

483
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,600
Orthodox, I'm trying to think
there was maybe one or two more

484
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,840
things I was thinking yeah,
yeah.

485
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,600
You know, you see the given
pull.

486
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,960
I think not this is important,
but I think, you know, in

487
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,240
Protestant circles, you see such
a push back.

488
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,000
It's like where you get these
churches that do like the Lord's

489
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,640
Supper once a quarter.
It's like not important, you

490
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,280
know, we're.
Going to do ours two times in

491
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:32,560
less than a week.
Man, living live in large, yeah,

492
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,120
you know, it's great.
So yeah, that, that's right.

493
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:35,720
Yeah.
We had that.

494
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,040
There was like, hey, and we were
switching around Communion.

495
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,920
I was like, man, let's do
communion every week, you know?

496
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,720
But it's good, good stuff.
I don't know if there's anything

497
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,400
else I want to add about Eastern
Orthodoxy.

498
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,640
I think it's good that we
covered it.

499
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,880
It's like one of those that's
like a little bit less familiar

500
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,760
even just with it's like, you
know, it's not something you see

501
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,720
a lot in Charleston, SC.
Except for CSU, you know it's.

502
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,040
A hotbed.
You heard it.

503
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,080
Here, at first they're.
Taking.

504
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,960
Over CSU.
I did have an employee whose

505
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,480
husband was a priest in Eastern
Orthodoxy at a church in Mount

506
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,280
Pleasant and I.
Had a neighbor.

507
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,400
OK, Yeah, they were.
Big in the Eastern Orthodoxy,

508
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,880
and they lived in our
neighborhood.

509
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,640
They seemed like a great family.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

510
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,840
We'd see them walk and they had
two or three kids.

511
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,680
They'd play.
They'd play with our kids at the

512
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,560
park.
And then he went into the

513
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:30,280
priesthood.
Yeah.

514
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,320
It's very same thing with Roman
Catholicism to some extent.

515
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,520
It's so with the liturgy, I do
like the rhythms to the year

516
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,560
where they really go into the
church calendar.

517
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,680
I think there's benefit to like
some of that kind of stuff.

518
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,600
The problem is then you get into
like these like myths and

519
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,360
stories.
And so you know, it's kind of

520
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:51,560
like you in a lot that and
really man, the garb that they

521
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,160
wear the get up for some of
these ceremonies is like is I

522
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,400
don't understand it all.
I know it all, but it's like to

523
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,680
someone who's not familiar with
it, like she would post stuff,

524
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,840
it would be like, this looks
insane, like, you know, very

525
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,320
official and wearing all the
things for different.

526
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,720
It's like, oh, it's Lent.
So we're wearing this thing and

527
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,080
it was like all all these
things, you know, got to see it.

528
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,960
It's it's it's it's fascinating.
But yeah, that that's all I got.

529
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,480
All right, we're ready for our
final take.

530
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,880
Oh yeah, final take.
Well, what as of recording, we

531
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,160
are about to get to the full
moon.

532
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,560
Oh, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.

533
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,120
And you know why that's
important?

534
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,040
Why is that important?
It's the.

535
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,600
First full moon after the spring
equinox.

536
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,200
Wow.
Yeah, it is.

537
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,160
That's true.
That's true.

538
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,360
And that that means the Sunday
that happens after the first

539
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,120
full moon after the spring
equinox is Easter.

540
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:42,320
Boom.
This Sunday.

541
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,080
Yeah, boom, here we are.
Easter.

542
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,480
I'm sure that's exactly how they
they track Passover too.

543
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,360
Yeah, there you go.
There, there you go.

544
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,400
Nailed it.
No, I think Passover and Easter

545
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,480
are close to coinciding this
this year.

546
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,560
I just wish you.
I wish you would just make

547
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,440
Easter happen whenever Passover.
Happens.

548
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:01,800
Yeah, to make it.
Make it.

549
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,000
Yeah, that has to be great.
I don't know.

550
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,440
I think there's a little bit
more variability, sorry.

551
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,960
Also, there's a lot of pollen
out there.

552
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,840
Everywhere, man, it's.
Insane.

553
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,360
Can't win it.
It, you know, the, the hot and

554
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,120
cold, it just tricks the plants
into releasing more and more

555
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,000
pollen.
It go, we go cold and then it

556
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,360
gets sworn back up and the
plants go, well, we better put

557
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,160
some more pollen out there and
it just keeps on happening.

558
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,720
Just planted a garden this
weekend.

559
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,760
So nice.
Expecting big things, so I'll

560
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,600
let you know how it goes.
We'll do garden check.

561
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,680
Not a great gardener, but I'm
excited for it.

562
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,080
Do you have raised garden beds
or?

563
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,720
Yeah.
OK, it's great.

564
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,320
I have just enough space to grow
about like 20 green beans at a

565
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,200
time, so it's good that we each
have like 5 and then, you know,

566
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:45,960
someone doesn't get any, so it's
good.

567
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,280
Yeah, like.
If we could grow cucumbers,

568
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,560
watermelons, it'd be great, but
I don't think I think it may be

569
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,080
too hot for us to grow.
I think melons are more of a

570
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,880
cooler climate.
Man.

571
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,280
Thing, I don't know.
Yeah, maybe I'm wrong.

572
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,840
Drop in the comments, let us
know, you know, give us some

573
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,360
gardening tips.
I'm trying to do better on my

574
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,600
word associations because you
know when people say stuff,

575
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,400
sometimes I just make these
associations and I'm trying I

576
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,880
try to hold those in check.
I remember one time we were in a

577
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,400
meeting, this is probably
20/10/2011 at work and we're

578
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:22,600
talking about this computer and
this guy was talking about we

579
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,080
had some error in this computer
system.

580
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,800
And he was like, we're, we're
really trying to figure out what

581
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,240
it is.
It's like there's a phantom in

582
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,760
there and we can't figure it out
which and, and in my mind starts

583
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,960
immediately singing the, the
course of the operos and I'm

584
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,160
like, OK, and I start thinking
about that and then I go, OK,

585
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,280
you got it Michael, you're in a
meeting.

586
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,160
You got to focus, refocus,
because they're going to ask you

587
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,640
a question here in a second, and
you're gonna think about the

588
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,000
Phantom of the Opera.
So I'm like, OK, I'm doing,

589
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,480
folks.
And and then he says, I'm just

590
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,920
concerned if we don't get some
new drives, we're gonna be past

591
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,840
the point of no return, which is
another song.

592
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,960
He's just like opera.
And I was like, I was like,

593
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,120
Ward, if you want me to focus.
You can't be.

594
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,880
You gotta stop dropping these
references to the Phantom of the

595
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:04,960
Opera song.
So he's like, what are you

596
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,640
talking about?
And there was a couple other

597
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,200
people like, oh, we caught it
too.

598
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,720
I was like too, it wasn't just
me, but what's the?

599
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,920
Great, next podcast I make I'm
gonna pick a random soundtrack

600
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,760
and say like a lyric.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

601
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,920
Pause.
Well, you kept saying Anne Sun

602
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:23,800
in this podcast about the, the,
the Philly Oakway and I kept

603
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,960
thinking of caveman.
Did you Caveman's probably

604
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,680
before your time.
Yeah, way before my time.

605
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,840
Yeah, yeah, according to you,
probably billions of years ago

606
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:30,600
or whatever.
I'm.

607
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:31,200
Just kidding.
Yeah.

608
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,960
Well, there's a cartoon that was
out and I watched it for a

609
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,800
couple years and it was just
caveman.

610
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,320
And that was like the.
And then once that series is

611
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,480
over, they launched a new series
the second season or whatever it

612
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,120
was Caveman.
And then his little son went and

613
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,920
he was like Anne's son.
He would come along.

614
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,160
And so every time you said
Anne's son, that's all I could

615
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,440
think of.
But I was like, I'm not going

616
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,040
to.
We just.

617
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Want to keep it together?
Proud of you.

618
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,520
That's great.
That's what we do on this

619
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:58,640
podcast.
Restrain.

620
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,520
Restrain ourselves.
Restrain restrain the the I

621
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,320
don't know, is that ADHD?
Thoughts.

622
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,560
I don't know, the only thing I
remember about caveman is so

623
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,960
easy a caveman can do it at the
GEICO commercials or whatever it

624
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,120
was.
Those are pretty good.

625
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,520
This guy looked like just maybe
a round ball of care with an

626
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,160
arm, arms and legs coming out
and he had a club.

627
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:21,520
Oh, nice.
I think I've seen this guy.

628
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:22,480
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I've seen this guy

629
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,840
and it's like his face is
literally like just eyes poking

630
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,360
out of hair, if I recall it
right.

631
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:28,760
Yeah.
That, you know, they don't do it

632
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,360
like they used to back in the
day.

633
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,840
You know, thinking about some of
these like shows and stuff, man,

634
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,600
it's not what it once was.
Is this a?

635
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,120
Is this a wrap for?
I I mean I think.

636
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,080
So we can never say never, but.
Yeah, someone will say.

637
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,720
And why not now?
Do fill in the blank.

638
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,480
So yeah.
I love it.

639
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,600
Anything else?
I think that's it.

640
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,000
That's our take.
Thanks for listening to Take

641
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,200
Two.
Find us wherever you find

642
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,720
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

643
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:00,400
video cast.