Presuppositional Apologetics | No Neutral Ground?

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All right.
Michael, I'm gonna need you to

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be.
Objected here, you caught the

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sigh on that, but keep going
you.

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Caught the sigh this is gonna
this is this is taking a lot out

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of Michael because we are
talking presup apologetics, the

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bane of everything Michael
stands for I'm I'm excited for

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this episode cause I've always
been fascinated by presup

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apologetics mainly because a lot
of those who endorse it I I like

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when I think of people presup,
you think of people and I don't

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necessarily love James white but
I think he's a smart guy the

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more it's like the more I listen
to him I kind of get aggravated

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you know what I'm saying like
it's like he knows a lie but.

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I don't ever listen to his
podcast ever anymore.

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But what what I did listen to
you don't come away with like,

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OK, I I am caught up on the hope
of this.

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Or this?
Is what I'm gonna go do.

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Like, yeah.
Same thing, I don't listen.

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To it.
Anymore and I feel like I don't

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know if it's like monologues are
hard.

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I don't know what I don't know
what it is, but it's like I'm

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just like, that was a slog.
If there's like a specific thing

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other people I'm gonna put I
should have looked this up.

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It's whatever the sigh.
Do you know this guy?

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His name?
Sigh.

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Young.
He was the pitcher.

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Is that who you're talking
about?

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Yeah, exactly.
Vodi Bochum would say he's a

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precept Sighten, Brig and Kate,
I'm probably saying he's a

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Canadian.
I apologize.

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Who does the precept mess?
A lot, A lot People like Jeff

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Durbin.
I'm kind of fascinated by it and

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I and we'll get into it more,
but I think there's an appeal

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to.
It.

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But Van Till Botsen, that's
right.

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Some of these people, they have
some famous debates.

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I did see a clip, maybe because
I've been looking at this for a

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long time.
Saw a clip of John MacArthur.

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Have you seen this?
This talked about?

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He said Van Till lectured his
first week of seminary and he

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was like, it was the worst week
of my life.

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He's like, I couldn't follow
anything.

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He's like, I just wanted to like
preach Scripture and more text.

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And I got like lost in all of
this stuff.

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But really, and I think all
these people that really endorse

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it, really smart people and I
like a lot of their system, but

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we'll get into it.
We got the best person.

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They'll talk through it.
The the apologist

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extraordinaire.
Cause I think there's the, and

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you probably, but there's a lot
of things, maybe not a lot.

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There's some things that precept
really does well, but maybe the

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the whole system is flawed.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not

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necessarily agreeing with the
the statement that yeah, well.

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Let's let's, let's get into it.
And this doesn't pique your

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interest.
I don't know what will.

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So let's go ahead and take it to
the next level.

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Let's fire up that twangy music.
From the hearts of the Low

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Country in South Carolina.
It's the Take Two podcast where

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we take theology to the next
level and what what I.

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Want to do here?
I'm going to go over some notes

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Michael and I both prepared by
reading a book by a pre supper,

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you know, and I and I think he
did a good job of articulating

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his view.
Like, I think that kind of makes

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sense.
If by that you mean I understand

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what he.
Believes yes yeah, this would be

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a great podcast.
I can't wait.

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So I I put some of these notes
together.

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I'll look over it and or I'll go
through it as I go through it.

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Feel free jump in and be like
man 'cause I'm I'm.

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What I'm going to try to do here
is represent what a pre supper

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would say, not necessarily say
man.

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'Cause I'm not necessarily a pre
supper.

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No, I like a lot about I like a
lot of pre supper, but I, I, I'm

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like 80% there and I can't get
the whole way.

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I I would love it if it could be
a tool in your tool belt, but I

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think it can't be.
I think it's got to be all or

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nothing is what it seems like.
I don't even.

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I don't even know what a tool a
new tool belt even means for a

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pre supper if if I understand
their their system correctly.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah 'cause you
don't need any tools except for

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their for.
You know, well, I mean his his

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thing was only believe that's
the name of his and he uses the

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we're already getting fired.
Are we talking to chiefs and a

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flag?
Are we talking priests up?

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I can't tell.
Yeah, it's the same.

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He uses this narrative that
we've talked about before in the

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juxtaposition.
That's right.

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Yeah.
Yeah, I saw the mark.

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Yeah, yeah.
So this guy is like coming.

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He's like, hey, my 12 year old
daughter is sick.

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Jesus gets interrupted by this.
I think she's a gentile, right?

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Yeah, Cyrophoenician or
something.

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Yeah, Cyrophoenician and she's
had a issue of blood for 12

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years.
So you're pointing out those

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similarities and he's like who
who touched me and the disciples

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was like we're in a crowd of
Jesus.

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Everyone's touching.
You said no power went out and

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and sorry to to to derail us,
but but, but I got to I just got

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to tell the story.
And so, you know, he finishes up

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with her and then someone during
that time comes to Gyrus Jarius

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and basically says your daughter
has died.

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And Jesus says to him in a time
of emotional distress and a time

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of, you know, hey, just believe,
have faith in me.

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And of course you should take
that as how that is what Jesus

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meant there was.
This is how you give the gospel.

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You just go around people and
say only believe.

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And if they don't, you just wash
your hands of them.

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Don't interact with them at all.
Just say you know, you know,

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Shake the dust off your sandals.
There you.

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Go Yeah, well, let let's get
into it where where they would

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base foundational thought for a
pre supper, which you might

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agree with this.
There's no such thing as a

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neutral thinker.
There's only competing world

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views when you get to the bottom
of it, they're all rooted in

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their own ultimate authority
claims.

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And so we, we live in this
world, you know, we live in the

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science age.
It tells us to be objective, to

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follow the evidence, leave faith
out of it.

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Whether it's a podcast, a
classroom, a conversation with a

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skeptic, the assumption a lot of
times is the same that that if

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we find some common ground, some
neutral ground, we can all

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stand.
We can look at the facts, come

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to our conclusions, we can
remove bias and what a pre

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supper would say.
What what if neutrality actually

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is a myth?
And they'll say this a lot.

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What if no one comes to the
table without bringing not only

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assumptions, but deeply rooted
assumptions about reality, truth

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and authority?
And I think what this guy Paul

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Taylor said in his book was
evidence isn't the problem.

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I think he used the analogy like
you read a mystery novel.

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Everyone's got the same
evidence, but there's like shape

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shift in you know what I mean?
And so he's like evidence.

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What what's that even mean
Anyway?

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You're you know, and I think
this is that that's an idea that

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pre suppers are going to look to
where you just got to get at, at

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the root of it all.
You need to get underneath all

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of this if you're going to
engage with.

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Someone, and he specifically
gives the example of Ken Ham

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answers in Genesis.
And he says that Ken Ham said

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that I used to give evidence for
creation and then evolutionists,

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they didn't just buy it, they
would come back and they would

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bring their own evidence.
And then I would bring our

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evidence and then they would
bring their own evidence.

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And finally I stopped doing
that.

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And I just wanted to point out
that your presuppositions will

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color how you view the evidence.
I think that gives away so much

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because it's almost as if you're
saying my system coheres, your

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system coheres.
There's no real difference for

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you to tell which one is
actually right.

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It all hinges on your
presuppositions.

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Now I know what someone else's
that is.

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That's how they argue and and in
the book.

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Sometimes he leaves it.
Flat like that I think.

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What he would come in at that
time and say is he would talk

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about the precondition of
knowledge and he would say our

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presuppositions make sense of
the world.

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They give you a knowledge, a
foundation for knowledge and

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logic.
But when you do that, you are

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giving evidence for your view.
So you're saying they're

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undercutting?
They are doing the very thing

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that they say they can't do.
They're giving an argument that

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a classical apologize.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I'll give the transcendental
argument all the time.

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There's many forms of it.
The moral argument, the pure

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transcendental argument, the
argument from the applicability

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of mathematics.
Like you, I could go down the

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list.
Argument for.

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Consciousness, life, all those
things, they transcend the

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physical world.
And so I'd stand right next to a

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priest supper and say, yes, an
atheist materialist view of the

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world cannot make sense of those
things.

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And so I know you're you're
talking about this big idea of

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no neutral ground just to come
full circle back to no neutral

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ground as a good Calvinist
sovereign grace.

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Yeah, there's no neutral ground.
But I don't know who's been

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elected and who's not.
And these are means, you know,

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just giving the gospel to
someone.

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They are.
They're using the same mind that

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they would use to evaluate the
the bad news and the good news

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of the gospel that they'd use to
evaluate the cosmological

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argument, right?
So you can't get around that.

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Sorry, no, no, no, no, no.
It's 'cause I like this

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interaction, 'cause this, this
is good, 'cause really my

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experience come from from this
book only believe I did listen

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to the Bodson Stein debate and
the Bonson sprawl debate to kind

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of get the intramural side of it
too, which I thought was really,

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really helpful as well.
Bonson Stein debate, beautiful.

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I listen to that and I go, this
is great, especially the part

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that gets a lot of play where,
and I wish debates did this

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today because they don't
anymore, where you have this.

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Oh, cross examine is strange.
So good, Yeah.

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Where you get to ask yes or no
questions?

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Straight to them.
Yeah, yeah, straight to them.

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I think that's so good because
you have this interaction

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between Bahnson and the Stein
where one of, I think, I can't

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remember which one goes first,
but basically Bahnson gets Stein

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to admit that he believes in the
laws of logic.

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And he says, and it's like Stein
doesn't even really listen to it

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'cause then he turns right
around and he's like, do you

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believe in anything that's
immaterial?

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And he's like, yes, the laws of
logic, like what you just so.

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But I would argue Bahnson is not
arguing like a preceptor.

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He's arguing as a classical
apologist.

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Like, he may be limited in his
scope of what he's arguing for,

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but he is arguing like a
classical apologist there.

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No, I I think that's good.
If we were to define precept

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apologetics, we might define it
as a system that argues that

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Christianity is not merely one
possible explanation of reality.

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It is the necessary foundation
that makes knowledge, logic,

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science and morality possible at
all.

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And, and someone like Van Till
really kind of the godfather of

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all this would say you really
can't reason to God.

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And unless you're reasoning from
God, and you'll hear this a lot

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in their arguments that they're,
they're borrowing from God's

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worldview.
You, you cannot make your

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argument without a Christian
worldview.

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In his book, Paul Taylor would
say, it's like someone saying,

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telling you words aren't
important and words don't matter

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and you can't communicate with
words because they're using

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words to communicate their
argument.

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He's saying that's what an
unbeliever sounds like.

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They're borrowing from a
Christian worldview that that

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doesn't really make sense in
their worldview, but that's how

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they have to make their point.
Yeah, so crossing streams a

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little bit because what I
understand a pure precept could

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00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,840
say, he would say you believe in
words because you're using

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00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,400
words.
I'm not even going to tell you

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00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,640
that words exist because you're
using them.

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00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,720
And so to make the analogy come
back, you'd have to tell the

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00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,440
atheist you believe in God, you
do believe in God.

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00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,080
And I think from Scripture
there's a sense when we could

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00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,640
all say everyone deep, deep down
has suppressed the truth of God.

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That's what Romans one would
tell us.

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00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,600
And so we'd say that there is
this self deception and they

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00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,120
traded the Creator for creation.
They didn't give thanks to him,

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and God gives them over.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And.
So and so.

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00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,840
I don't know if you've ever
talked to an atheist and argued,

238
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,600
but it I've never found it
helpful to say you actually do

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00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,760
believe in God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,960
yeah.
But but Romans one says that the

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00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:45,120
invisible qualities of God are
plainly seen by his creation.

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00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,400
So.
You're trying to point those out

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00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,080
more.
Yeah.

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00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,880
And this is good because in the
SPRO, the Bonds and Sprole

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00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,520
debate, it's funny 'cause they
both were appealing to Romans 1,

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00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,240
you know what I mean?
And Sprole's like, yeah, he's

247
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,680
like one of his concerns were,
man, you're really minimizing

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00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:02,440
natural evaluation.
One of you know, we, we're

249
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,200
giving two books.
You're minimizing this book, is

250
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,280
what Sprole was saying.
This vantel you cannot reason to

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00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:08,960
God.
Paul didn't, I guess, didn't

252
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,760
think that because he's saying
you could plainly see the

253
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,160
invisible attributes.
I don't think David thought that

254
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,160
either.
The heavens are telling of the

255
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,120
glory of God and they're expanse
is declaring the work of his

256
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,840
hands.
David is saying you can look at

257
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:31,040
the stars and you can reason to
the fact that there is a God.

258
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,480
Well, let's zoom out real quick.
Apologetic approaches, and

259
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,320
you're the expert here.
Let's talk evidential

260
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,840
apologetics.
If you had to, you know, give a

261
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,440
2 sentence a paragraph
definition, how would you

262
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,720
describe evidential apologetics?
Yeah.

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00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,040
Can I start slightly different?
I would say there's broadly 2

264
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,240
huge classes and then there's a
third stepchild that we don't

265
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,360
ever talk about.
So the two the biggest class is

266
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,440
classical apologetics.
Generally, classical apologetics

267
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,760
is described as a 2 step method.
Yeah, and that would be a

268
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,400
critique.
A precept would say that in a

269
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,560
bad way.
Like I just go straight to the

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00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:13,760
source.
Why are we 2 stepping?

271
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:14,880
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway.

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00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,560
So I just wanted to.
Whatever yeah, you can't like

273
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,720
you should like Norm Geisler has
like all these things like you

274
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,560
can't, you know anyways, yeah
yeah, yeah, he he addresses all

275
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,120
those things, but it's
classically 2 stepper.

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00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,720
Some have even said three steps.
No, with the advent of extreme

277
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,200
modernism, AKA post modernism
where people don't believe in

278
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,880
the truth, sometimes you have to
argue that truth exists.

279
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,440
Then you argue that God exists.
Then you argue that that the New

280
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,760
Testament in the Bible is
trustworthy in Jesus.

281
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,560
You know the the revelation
about Jesus is true.

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00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,360
And so and so largely you are.
You are first getting them into

283
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,040
a view of theism that and then
you're saying and Christian

284
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,960
theism is the right the right
one.

285
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,520
And you might say, like, William
Lane Craig or someone would fall

286
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,880
into this bucket.
Yeah, like.

287
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,880
Yes, yeah, William Lane Craig,
Greg Kochl, Norm Geisler, RC

288
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,680
Sproule.
Yeah, the list goes.

289
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,800
RC Sproule's the good one to
have in your back talk, but

290
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,240
that's like really good 'cause
he's like real, you know what I

291
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,560
mean?
Paul Yeah, yeah, yeah.

292
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,240
And so then I would say under
that broad umbrella, a classical

293
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:28,960
apologetic apologist might use
evidentiary, historical, legal,

294
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,280
so he might put a whole bunch of
different things in his tool

295
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,080
belt so that he can meet the
person where they are, where

296
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,440
your hang up is.
That's what I want to address.

297
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,240
And I, as a classical apologist,
I see my job largely as

298
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,720
stripping away the facade and
making you really realize, OK, I

299
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,000
don't have a good like we talk
about like emotional reasons for

300
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,840
not believing in God, volitional
reasons or intellectual reasons.

301
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,840
And I'm trying to strip away all
your intellectual reasons so you

302
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,080
can tell, hey, this is just an
emotional reason.

303
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,680
Like you're mad because he won't
let you sin, or because your

304
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,160
grandmother died, or this is
just you're being rebellious and

305
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,040
helping you come face to face
with who you are.

306
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,880
That's good.
So, so then that's a big camp.

307
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,720
So I would, I would say that
evidential apologetics would be

308
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,600
a underneath the broad umbrella
of classical apologetics.

309
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,000
But basically you are looking
at, you know, there's

310
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:34,360
archaeological evidential some,
some try to argue only the what

311
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,520
would pass in a court.
I don't know why you would do

312
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,560
that.
So we call that legal apologize.

313
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,120
And then there's precept and
then there's like fideism where

314
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,960
you don't do any apologetics.
You just like.

315
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,920
It's a matter of faith only type
of thing.

316
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,560
Precept's not far from that and
and it's something you know, and

317
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,200
the little bit I've read, I do
appreciate your like calling

318
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,440
this person repentance or you'll
be like, Hey, you're sinful and

319
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,600
this is, you know, you can do
that in a bad way and a good

320
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,720
way.
And it probably depends on on

321
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,560
the person.
I think a preceptor would this

322
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,160
is what I always hear from
preceptors.

323
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,680
I don't know if it's in the
notes, but they're like when you

324
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,319
talk about neutral gun, you're
trying to meet someone where

325
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:11,520
there is, there'll be like, why
are you putting God on trial?

326
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,200
Or you know what I mean?
They use that kind of language

327
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,480
like God should stand above you,
not you know what I mean?

328
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:18,599
Like they'll say stuff like
that.

329
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,119
Yeah.
So you want me to address that,

330
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:20,839
right?
Let's do it this.

331
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,560
Is the time.
You're just laving some steak

332
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,680
out front.
Of the line well, if you're

333
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,920
bringing up like a meeting where
there is, I think to draw out

334
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,040
the difference like a Prince up
would be like, I don't want to

335
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,640
meet them where they are
necessarily.

336
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,600
I want to judge them on behalf
of God.

337
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,080
They they wouldn't say it that
way, but they'll say like

338
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,200
they're talking, you know what I
mean?

339
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,520
Like they would say that's bad.
Yeah, when Paul talked with

340
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,840
Christians about their issues,
he went right to New Testament

341
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,640
scriptures.
He just said he just told them

342
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,600
like it was.
He was accepted as an impossible

343
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,360
When Paul talked to Jews, he
reasoned from the Old Testament

344
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,360
scriptures.
He did that in the synagogues.

345
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,120
When Paul talked to Greeks, he
would reference Old Testament

346
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,520
scriptures, but he also brought
in their own poets.

347
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,480
And if you look at what he has
to say on Mars Hill, he

348
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,640
addresses the three big
questions that the pre Socratic

349
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,440
and Socratic philosophers from
Greek philosophy ask.

350
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,480
What does it mean to exist?
What does it mean to be alive?

351
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,600
What does it mean to change but
be the same?

352
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,000
And he says we have our
existence, our life and we we,

353
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,920
you know, change or something
like all that is found in

354
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,600
Christ.
So he is bringing this Greek

355
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,360
philosophy to these Greek people
and saying, hey, it's all in

356
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,040
Christ.
He's meeting them where they

357
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,440
are.
Some scoff, some like.

358
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,560
We want to hear more, Some
believe and.

359
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,000
That's all you can.
Yeah, that that's good.

360
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,560
It's funny because I feel like
that's like, like it's funny

361
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,440
'cause everyone's like Romans
one, everyone's like Acts 17 or

362
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,240
like everyone like claims these,
you know what I mean?

363
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,120
Isn't that like, funny?
It's all based on your

364
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,080
presuppositions.
Full circle.

365
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,760
Talking about this myth of
neutrality, A presupper would

366
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,920
say that really every argument
assumes the laws of logic.

367
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:01,600
You know, like there's non
contradiction.

368
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,400
The reliability of human senses,
the uniformity of nature,

369
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,680
objective moral standards.
The key question on what basis

370
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,760
do these things exist?
If if it's really just random,

371
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,400
if it's really just matter plus
chance.

372
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,840
Like how can you even have logic
or objective standards?

373
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,880
You pretend you do, but your
whole basis doesn't account for

374
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,960
that and that, and that's really
if you read these argument, I

375
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,520
mean, listen to these debates.
They're a lot of times just

376
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,040
gonna hit this over and over,
which I I think it is a good

377
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,160
argument.
But at some level it's like you

378
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,480
hear evidence presented.
We're just like, hey, you can't

379
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,000
argue with me, 'cause it's
you're using a lot.

380
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,280
You know what I'm saying?
Allow you to argue with.

381
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,640
Me like it's, you know.
So I I think this is you you

382
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,480
brought up the van till argument
like if someone tells me that he

383
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,960
doesn't believe in words, I'm
not gonna so so when you use

384
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,760
some big philosophical.
Words.

385
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:58,120
So epistemology, the study of
what you know, right?

386
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,520
Or if I say epistemological, it
has to do with what you know.

387
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,160
If I say ontological, that means
this is good actually exists.

388
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,480
Right, Yeah, 'cause this is this
is this was Sprole made it?

389
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,040
Did you listen to Sprole of
Boston debate?

390
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,800
OK.
I mean, he talked to a class.

391
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:13,680
OK.
Yeah, Yeah, yes.

392
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,200
At a masters level on there and
so we listen to that whole that

393
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,920
whole Sprole Bondsen debate.
So when precepts are writing

394
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,640
books and they're talking to
themselves, they make an epistle

395
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,040
epistemological claim.
They claim the atheist knows God

396
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,760
exists.
The atheist uses logic and

397
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,360
therefore he knows God exists.
If you look and and listen to

398
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:43,800
Banson's debate with Stein, he
makes an ontological claim.

399
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,920
He says that because of this,
then God exists.

400
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,600
And classical apologists do that
all the time.

401
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,000
We say because the laws of
logic, they don't they're

402
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,000
they're non physical.
Well, like we would say

403
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,800
consciousness is non physical,
morality is non physical.

404
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:04,920
They have to be grounded in
something.

405
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,040
The only thing that makes sense
for them to be grounded in is

406
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,280
something that transcends,
transcends the universe.

407
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,760
Cause the universe is physical.
So God must exist.

408
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:15,120
And that's how Bahnson argues
with Stein.

409
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,640
I would say, yeah.
But then when he's arguing with

410
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,640
Sproul, he shifts to an
epistemological argument.

411
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,920
He says, you know, and so that's
crazy.

412
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,120
I would never, I would never say
to an atheist you know, God

413
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,560
exists because you just use a
logical argument.

414
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:31,320
I would.
Say.

415
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,120
Because you use a logical
argument.

416
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,320
Let's think about what logic is.
Therefore God exists.

417
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,000
Can you not see that?
Yeah, I know that I in the

418
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,280
limited clubs.
I don't know what I did not look

419
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,080
at these recently for this, but
you look at Jeff Durbin like St.

420
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,120
witnessing or something.
He'll always, you know, say

421
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,240
maybe not always.
I haven't listened to these a

422
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,320
long time, but like your start
up, you know, you think you're

423
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,440
just like Stardust, like how you
know, and he'll just like kind

424
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,880
of really, really get get after
that.

425
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,120
Let's talk about world views
clashing, getting to the root of

426
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:03,480
what a pre supper would put
forth.

427
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,280
What's a world view really kind
of trying to drill down?

428
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,400
What's the grid you see life
through?

429
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,040
What's your ultimate authority?
What do you trust to interpret

430
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,640
reality and a pre supper would
they're they're very out in

431
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,480
open.
Hey, I've got an ultimate

432
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:20,800
authority.
You have an ultimate authority.

433
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,280
Everyone has one.
They want to expose this point

434
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:25,920
and they'll belabor it.
Like what are you appealing to?

435
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,040
What are you appealing to?
Let's get to that and let's just

436
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,680
talk that and you know, you
might say Christianity, God's

437
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,680
revelation, Scripture is the
ultimate authority.

438
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,680
Secularism might look at human
reason, autonomy as ultimate

439
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,800
authority, atheism, naturalism,
matter, time, chance, ultimate

440
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,760
authority, Islam.
You might look at the Quran or

441
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,360
Allah as ultimate authority and
there's no higher Court of

442
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:51,200
Appeal above this ultimate
authority.

443
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,360
You can't A presuppositionalist
would say you can't step outside

444
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,240
of all world views and judge
them neutrally.

445
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,360
You're always inside of 1 and
that's going to color everything

446
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,360
else.
And so they or want to want to

447
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,000
get to the root like, Hey, what
are you appealing to and just

448
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,800
like drill you on that kind of
over and over and over and over

449
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,960
again.
So one of the verses you have

450
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,040
here, let's do it.
One that's listed that Paul

451
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,760
Frank uses in his book.
Only believe Proverbs 3 five and

452
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:20,920
six.
Trust in the Lord with all your

453
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,480
heart.
Do not lean on your own

454
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,440
understanding in all your ways.
Acknowledge Him and He will make

455
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,400
your path straight.
First, I would say this is

456
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,160
written to someone who
provisionally already believes.

457
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,680
OK, Yeah.
It's someone within the Jewish

458
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,240
faith.
It is Solomon talking to his

459
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,920
son.
My son, do not forget this.

460
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,600
These teachings don't depart
from what you know.

461
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,080
So already I feel like we're
pulling a verse out of context

462
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,440
because how they would use this
is you don't get to judge God.

463
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:58,720
And they'll also use, they'll
use the the verse from I think

464
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,000
it's Deuteronomy that says do
not put the Lord to.

465
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:01,840
God to the test.
Yeah, yeah.

466
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
And, and this is where they're

467
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,880
rejecting.
I think it may be even, it may

468
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,480
be Cora.
It's one place where the

469
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,880
Israelites are rejecting Moses's
leadership.

470
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,480
And it says do not put your God
to the test.

471
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,280
And they're going to use this to
say you should never look at the

472
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,640
heavens to see if they declare
the glory of the Lord.

473
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,000
You should never look at
creation to see if it reveals

474
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,680
the you know, hidden things of
who who God is.

475
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,440
But I think this verse, if you
use it to how they do it cuts

476
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,800
both ways because at this at
this level, I can't even give

477
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,720
the atheist the gospel.
I can't say here's what Christ

478
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,720
did for you.
Here's you are a Sinner because

479
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,040
you're asking that atheist to
judge the things that you just

480
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,880
told them about Christ and make
a decision about it.

481
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,880
You, you, they are putting the
gospel in the dock.

482
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,000
They're being a judgement of
whether they're going to accept

483
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,360
it or not.
Right, Right.

484
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:56,640
Yeah, Yeah, I see what you're
saying.

485
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,920
Yeah, cause at the end of the
day, the only thing that Zach

486
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:03,880
has to make a decision is
Zach's.

487
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:04,400
Mind.
Oh yeah.

488
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,240
My yeah, yeah, yeah.
The only thing I have to make a

489
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,640
decision is my mind, right?
And I, I have to, you know,

490
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,000
obviously I have the authority
to help me make a decision.

491
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,680
If I if I find this to be a
trustworthy authority, then I

492
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,760
can believe what it says, but I
have to initially find it to be

493
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,200
a trustworthy authority.
No, I yeah, that that makes

494
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,360
sense.
Well, let's keep going down.

495
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,560
Really getting again to kind of
the core of presuppositionalism.

496
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,560
They would say.
We talked about it a little bit.

497
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,280
People don't reject God because
of lack of evidence.

498
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,560
They reject him because they
want to suppress the truth,

499
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,640
relying on this Romans 1
framework for for a presupp

500
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,320
proponents.
They're not gonna say let me

501
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,360
prove God exists.
They are going to say, hey, let

502
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:52,000
me show you how you are.
You're borrowing from my

503
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,560
worldview.
You already depend on him.

504
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:55,800
They're not looking at
introducing this new

505
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,000
information, like look at this
new planet or look at this

506
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,120
archaeological dig.
They're just trying to show you

507
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,120
you're inconsistent.
Your worldview doesn't work.

508
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,720
We're saying we're kind of
saying the same thing over and

509
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,800
over and over and over again.
Here's some illustration using

510
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,480
logic, science, morality.
You're, you're using these

511
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,840
things, but you're denying their
foundation.

512
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,160
You're using borrowed capital,
you're quote UN quote standing

513
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,040
on God's lap.
You're depending on God's world

514
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,080
to argue against him or, you
know, you're sawing off the

515
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,440
branch on the proverbial tree.
You're destroying the very

516
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,120
foundation that makes reasoning
even possible.

517
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,800
And something that came up in
these debates over maybe was

518
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,160
Bonson Sprole.
He was basically like, I don't,

519
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,600
I don't want a probability of
something.

520
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,800
I want to know for certain.
And if I'm looking at God's

521
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,200
Word, I know it's certain versus
the preponderance of the

522
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,280
evidence, or that's something
that I will hear them say.

523
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,120
Two, you know, you hear these
things, The confidence factor.

524
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,440
Yeah, Paul Frank in his book
only believes, says that the

525
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,920
cosmological God only or he
actually he used the ID God.

526
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,920
The ID God is only a probable
God and is therefore no God at

527
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,200
all, and it is idolatry.
Yeah, he does say this.

528
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,240
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's just a wild, wild

529
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,680
accusation.
OK, let let's go back to some

530
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,440
things you said.
Yeah, go for it.

531
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,440
I I think especially so.
Just to be clear, I don't think

532
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,960
there is any.
Let me know if you are out

533
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,040
there.
I don't think there is any

534
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,840
Armenian who is a pre supper.
I I think, I think, and that's,

535
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,440
and that's one reason I've said
it has been like drawn to it is

536
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,840
I think like you come into this
like God, sovereignty, world.

537
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,720
Those are people that embrace
that.

538
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,480
And so it's like, you know, it's
like different.

539
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,880
Yeah, so, so me not being an
Armenian, I, I agree with every,

540
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,280
I agree with not everything, but
a lot of what we're saying.

541
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,360
I, you know, you were reading
that people don't reject God

542
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:51,400
because of lack of evidence,
they're rejecting because of

543
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,400
suppression.
Truth, yes and Amen 2.

544
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,600
And three.
Right.

545
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,320
But in Romans, one could also
say people don't reject the

546
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,360
gospel because of lack of
evidence.

547
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,280
They, you know, reject the
gospel because they reject the

548
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:07,120
truth.
Yeah, so.

549
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,840
But we're still called to give
the gospel.

550
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,640
Yeah.
You know, Mark, the opening of

551
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,360
Mark, Jesus tells apparel about
a sower of seed who goes out and

552
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,840
throws seed out, and he goes to
bed and he wakes up and he

553
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:20,720
doesn't know why.
It grew.

554
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,280
Some of it grew, some of it
didn't.

555
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,960
And you know, he the, the Lord
caused the increase.

556
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,400
Paul in his letter to the First
Corinthians would say, you know,

557
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,320
you shouldn't be saying you're
of Apollos and you're of Paul

558
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:39,800
and I'm of Christ because while
some planted some water, God

559
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,880
ultimately brought about the
increase.

560
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,160
Jesus, after he gets done
talking to the woman of Samaria,

561
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,280
she goes into the town.
The cyclists come up.

562
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,360
They're like, are you hungry?
And like, I've already eaten

563
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,400
like.
Where do you get food?

564
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,680
And like my food is doing the
will of the Lord and he says

565
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,720
raise up your eyes and look at
the harvest coming out of

566
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,680
Samaria.
You did not plant it, You did

567
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,240
not water it, but somewhat you
are going to harvest it.

568
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,120
OK.
All of these things talk about a

569
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,800
process that I think most of us,
if you're believer, there were

570
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,480
times when you weren't a
believer and you could tell God

571
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,080
was dealing with you through
various things in your life to

572
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,880
open up your eyes to the truth
of the gospel.

573
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,640
Apologetics is one of those
mechanisms.

574
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,680
Just like someone being a good
father could be one of those

575
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,480
mechanisms.
A Sunday school teacher can be

576
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,760
one of those mechanisms.
Romans 10 is going to say, you

577
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,960
know, how are they going to
believe if you don't tell them?

578
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,520
Like there are means to the
sovereign decisions classical

579
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,760
apologetics can and has.
By have they saved anyone?

580
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,760
No, apologetics hasn't saved
anyone.

581
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,240
Jesus Christ has.
Evangelism hasn't saved anyone,

582
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,400
Jesus Christ has.
You know what I'm saying?

583
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,880
Like ultimately, it's the
Spirit.

584
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,080
Yep.
Totally.

585
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,160
And so, yeah.
All right.

586
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,360
No.
I, I, I think this is good.

587
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,920
A pre supper would at the end of
the day.

588
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,080
And one, one thing, maybe this
other reason I like

589
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,000
presuppositionalism or I have, I
don't say I don't endorse a

590
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,280
wholesale, but one thing that
draws me to it is, you know, you

591
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,520
don't have to be an expert on
everything.

592
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,760
You can just you can you, you
can just say like you're

593
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,120
inconsistent, but you know what
I mean?

594
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,360
It's like simple in that sense.
You know what I mean?

595
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:23,360
It is very.
Simple it is.

596
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,400
Yeah, it's like easier I Paul.
Frank's book Only believe, Only

597
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,280
believe, Only believe 'cause
there's no more work.

598
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,160
What's tough, what's tough for
me is, and I think it's good to

599
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,200
know all the basic arguments,
whether you're, you know, a

600
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,480
hardcore apologist or not, you
should be equipped with these

601
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,160
kind of things.
And I'm like, fine with those.

602
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,640
I probably say syllogism wrong,
but I get the the gist of it

603
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,720
enough.
What gets me is like, you're

604
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,720
talking to someone and they're
like, you say, Hey, you talk

605
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,520
about this one issue and then
they're like, well, what about

606
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,840
this?
It's like sometimes the target's

607
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,720
always moving because we don't
believe, you know what I'm

608
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:58,760
saying.
And I'm like, I just don't have

609
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,560
time to research every little
thing.

610
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,280
And we keep moving and it's like
I feel exasperated at some

611
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,200
point.
Do you know what I'm saying?

612
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,120
Absolutely.
I mean, there's a guy I worked

613
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,320
with, good guy, was a nominal
Christian as a younger guy,

614
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,760
rejected his faith and I sat
down with him probably for four

615
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,440
or five lunches and we would
talk for an hour and a half and

616
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,560
I would just kept his name was
Jake Jacob.

617
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,680
I'd be like Jacob.
I'm happy to answer this.

618
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,320
Yeah.
But do you see how we're

619
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,040
shifting subjects here?
Like, we were talking about

620
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,120
this.
We didn't just like see this

621
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,080
through, you know, So sometimes
that's just, you know, kind of

622
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,240
art of the conversation because
we would go all over and like,

623
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,600
you want to answer.
All the stuff.

624
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,920
But it's like it can be
exhausting.

625
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,680
And at the end of the day, did I
save him?

626
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,160
No.
Did apologetics save him?

627
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:55,360
No, He knows the gospel.
He's rejecting it because he's

628
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,240
suppressing the truth and
unrighteousness.

629
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,520
Do I think that I, you know,
sinned against God or use

630
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,640
unbiblical methods?
Because I said.

631
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,400
That's where I think you're
taking it, not you taking it,

632
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,640
but like a precepticism might be
taking it too far when they're

633
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,080
like this is sinful.
Are you doing because some

634
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,600
people are I I think part of it
is if you really embrace precept

635
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,160
totally, then you, you kind of
do have to think otherwise are

636
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,040
sinful.
You know what I'm saying?

637
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,040
Like it's hard.
That's why I I can't endorse at

638
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,840
wholesale because I I'm like, I
don't.

639
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,120
I feel like to me, my job is to
politely slap people on the face

640
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,480
and say, look, the heavens are
declaring the glory of the Lord

641
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,960
here, look here, look here, look
here.

642
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,360
You cannot miss the fact that
God is shouting, I'm here.

643
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:45,640
And this book, unlike any other
book, is trustworthy, and it has

644
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,200
bad news in it, and it has good
news in it, and you don't want

645
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,640
the bad news.
You don't, that's for sure.

646
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,000
Great.
Last thing I'll say from our

647
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,520
notes, kind of wrapping it up
for their confidence, they'll

648
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,720
say Christianity is the only
world view that accounts for

649
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,920
truth when it comes to humility.
Unbelief is not intellectual

650
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,480
superiority, it's more moral and
spiritual.

651
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,280
Depression is suppression of
what you see.

652
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,480
And then it's not about data
dumping.

653
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,200
You're you're just trying to
expose their worldview.

654
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,680
And so you're going to ask a lot
of these questions.

655
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,600
By what standard?
How do you account for logic?

656
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,000
Why do you trust your reasoning?
What makes something morally

657
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,360
wrong and really press into
these?

658
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,000
But anyway, I think this is a
good good episode on Pres, but I

659
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,160
think it highlights what a
presuppositionalist is all

660
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,400
about, or what they would say
maybe.

661
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,200
What are some concerns?
And I think I did a good job.

662
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,480
Like the viewers do not know
where I fall.

663
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,760
No, yeah, this was like a total
mystery.

664
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,640
Like everyone's like, oh, I
wonder what what's going to

665
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,640
happen.
But.

666
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,120
I'll just say again, I think you
said something like you could

667
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,560
have precept.
I don't think you could have

668
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,760
precept the thought process in
your toolbox, but but you could

669
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,960
have the these questions that
you just.

670
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,240
Asked that's what That's what I
mean, that's.

671
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,600
What I think you want?
To do, yeah, a lot of

672
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,480
transcendental.
The transcendental argument,

673
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,320
yeah, it's one of we covered
that.

674
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:13,800
We covered the transcendental
argument.

675
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,520
Yeah, we covered the Kalam
cosmological argument, we

676
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,159
covered fine tuning.
So yes, you can have the

677
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,040
transcendental argumentation in
your tool belt and there's

678
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,520
nothing wrong with asking
someone how do you account for

679
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,080
logic?
Why trust your reasoning if

680
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,360
evolution is true?
It didn't gear you up to believe

681
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,280
and no truth.
It geared you up to get your

682
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,120
genes to the next generation.
Yeah, what's, what's the point?

683
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,199
And I think it was in the
Bondsenstein debate, Stein was

684
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:46,199
like, here's 8 arguments that I
have, I can show that are

685
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,080
they're flawed or like they're
inconsistent or something like

686
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,000
that.
And he and he went through like

687
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,600
7 arguments, but none of them
were the transcendental

688
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:56,840
argument.
But he went through a bunch of

689
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,760
other arguments, cosmological,
teleological, all these.

690
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,480
And Bonson was like, man, you
just like missed the only one

691
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,280
that I care about.
He's like, and Bonson was like,

692
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,760
Oh yeah, I think all those other
ones are flawed.

693
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,440
That's what he says.
He's like, Oh, yeah, there's

694
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,120
like, he, he like gave that, you
know?

695
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,720
It's been a minute, I need to go
re listen to it, but I think one

696
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:20,720
of the ones that Stein brings up
is some form of the cosmological

697
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:22,880
argument.
And he asked, OK, who created

698
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,360
God?
And it's like you don't

699
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,920
understand the premises if
you're asking that one time Greg

700
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,520
was talking with Michael Shermer
in a debate and Michael Shermer

701
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,840
said, ask Greg like, OK, you
believe God, who created God?

702
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,040
And he said, Michael, that is an
intellectually dishonest

703
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,880
question.
You don't believe God was had a

704
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,760
creator because you don't
believe in God.

705
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,800
You know, as a good theist, I
don't believe had a God.

706
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,440
God had a creator.
So why are you?

707
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Asking this question.
Just turn it right back around

708
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,960
on him.
So it baffles me why one would

709
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,640
let that through.
You know Chuck Bonson did there,

710
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,240
but whatever.
Yeah, Bonson, man.

711
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,640
Well, there you go.
Do we transition to our final

712
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,800
take?
I think so.

713
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,920
Let's talk.
Fine, it'll take.

714
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,160
Last time we did a much better
job of outlining what we were.

715
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,880
Going to talk about this time.
I'll just say I feel like I told

716
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,280
Jill this yesterday.
I felt like I just got hit by a

717
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,880
Mack truck.
Oh, with everything that's been

718
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,440
going on.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

719
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,960
I have we ever talked about
this?

720
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:30,400
Maybe.
I don't know.

721
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,840
I don't think we did.
Maybe we did.

722
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,320
I'm losing my mind as well.
So but so today is Tuesday,

723
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,560
Tuesday, Sunday.
I taught Sunday school.

724
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,600
Yeah.
And I hear you're skipping my

725
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,720
Sunday school next week.
Is that true?

726
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,840
Who told you this?
Who told you?

727
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,360
This Danny.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

728
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,320
He wants me to moderate.
A.

729
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,680
A call conversation.
Loud.

730
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:53,600
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It'd.

731
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,000
Be good, we'll just.
Maybe no talk priests up, it'll

732
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,640
be fine.
It'll be tough priests up and

733
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:08,320
then I preached and then DM Ed
our kind of our final session of

734
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,720
the first.
You know the like if you were

735
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,320
writing a book, this would be
the end of the book.

736
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,880
Or if you're writing a trilogy,
this might be the end of the

737
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,840
short little trilogy.
Now we may there are some

738
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,720
threads like any good Oh.
Yeah.

739
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000
Storytelling.
Some threads that.

740
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,600
Unfinished business.
That could some unfinished

741
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,840
business that they could but so
I was like.

742
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,320
How long was the D&D session, I
must ask?

743
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:40,400
We got done at 10:30 and we
started at a little after one

744
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,600
like 1:30, so about maybe 9
hours.

745
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,400
I wow, that's very long, I know.
We did break like we take

746
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,600
breaks, no?
Straight through.

747
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,600
You guys aren't?
Hardcore.

748
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,560
Only hardcore people would.
Go snow eating.

749
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:57,240
We did like Danny and I did like
a member, potential member

750
00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,680
interview kind of thing.
And it went kind of long.

751
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,920
Like it got done like a little
after 1 and I was like, oh wow,

752
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,440
the D&D Group's.
Here, Yeah, yeah, we, we went to

753
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,160
eat at Waffle House.
And it came back.

754
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,920
So yeah, we were getting set up
as y'all were.

755
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:09,640
Leaving.
Oh gotcha.

756
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,040
I was like, wow, so man, that is
a day goodness.

757
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,320
Yeah, Monday.
I took a little bit of time off

758
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,080
of work that morning, but I had
fallen.

759
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,080
I had to take Julia to choir
practice early.

760
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,040
I was like, I'll just take her,
come back and I just go right

761
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:28,680
back to sleep.
I did.

762
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,120
I was like, I'm not even going
to drink coffee.

763
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,840
Oh, yeah, I'm just going to take
her in.

764
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,880
And I just laid there and I
couldn't fall back asleep.

765
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,480
And I was like, I'm not tired,
but I am tired, you know.

766
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,240
Oh.
Yeah, I've been there, man.

767
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,480
Yeah, that's big.
So, yeah.

768
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,320
Anything else?
I know you're still going

769
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,400
through Sunday school.
I guess the perfect storm's not

770
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,440
hitting for a while, but still
going Sunday school going

771
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,280
strong.
D&D happens once a month, so you

772
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,160
got.
Once a month.

773
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:53,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No.

774
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,000
Some people were saying I should
have led singing Sunday, but

775
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,200
that would have just been oh.
You could have done it it'd.

776
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,080
Been crazy.
I mean I could have I think I

777
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,000
could have but who wants to
listen to me that much Like if

778
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,960
you're in my Sunday school, if
you are AD and D player in my

779
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,000
Sunday school class, you would
have heard me Sunday school.

780
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,200
That's crazy.
Singing, preaching, and then

781
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,400
you.
Should have greeted at the doors

782
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,200
and done announcements.
Just maybe run back to the

783
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,240
algorithm real quick, change a
few things, you know, there you

784
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:24,720
go, just just do it.
All sweet, good.

785
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,240
Anything else you can think of?
I know, I mean this is like

786
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,520
relatively short compared to the
one we just oh, sorry, I know I

787
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,760
feel bad.
Sweet cream milk.

788
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,440
All right.
Well, that's our take.

789
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,160
Thanks for listening to Take 2.
Find us wherever you find

790
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,680
podcasts and on YouTube for
those who want to watch our

791
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:44,360
video cast.